Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[Albion]

There are many views. However, the middle views are illogical and make God a wimpy being who is incapable of effectively saving anyone unless that person chooses God of their own free will.

You have avoided and side-skipped your massive problem, Albion. Why do you project a wimpy God?

I have pointed out the fact that there are more than two possible ways to look at the matter. You have just agreed that this is so. It's settled.

 

[Josiah]

I'm waiting for the verses that say "Jesus died for ONLY a few.... ONLY the elect.... ONLY Calvinists."

The verses that prove the following Scriptures are wrong:

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...



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[MennoSota]

Why do you ignore the plank in your eye?

Where am I side-skipping? Stay focused 91. Address the issue... especially noted in Ephesians 5 within my post. Just address scripture. I would love for you to just do that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yeah, it is. And how many people do you think it will convince they were wrong by discussing it some more. Zero Zilch, nada

Yep, no one posting is likely to change their mind.

It's just Calvinists marking their territory.

And non-Calvinists saying "your theology stinks mr calvin!"

:smirk:

 

[MennoSota]

I'm waiting for the verses that say "Jesus died for ONLY a few.... ONLY the elect.... ONLY Calvinists."

The verses that prove the following Scriptures are wrong:

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...



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I just quoted one in Ephesians 5.


Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives,

as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

Josiah, has Christ made the entire world without spot or wrinkle so that the entire world might be holy and without blemish?
Yes or no?
What does the text say? Who did Christ love? What did Christ do for the church?
Does Christ do that for the entire world?

You are tossing verses around. Actually explain every verse and how it teaches semi-pelagianism like you teach. Put down your copy and paste and actually teach what scripture verse teaches.

 

[MennoSota]

Yep, no one posting is likely to change their mind.

It's just Calvinists marking their territory.

And non-Calvinists saying "your theology stinks mr calvin!"

:smirk:

Because y'all refuse to actually read scripture. Go ask your priest MC.

 

[Josiah]

I just quoted one Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

Correct. There's no "only" "exclusively" Yup, the only verse you have is one that doesn't at all state what you do.


If I posted that I spoke to my wife today, would that mandate that I ONLY spoke to my wife this morning? This verse nowhere states, "God loves only a minority of people." "God is merciful to only a minority of people." "Jesus died for only a few people." YOU say it but you can't find any verse where God says that.


And of course, you must ignore (or spin to contradict) all these and more....


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...




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[psalms 91]

Because y'all refuse to actually read scripture. Go ask your priest MC.

Or we refuse to accept your version of it.

 

[MennoSota]

Correct. There's no "only" "exclusively" If I posted that I spoke to my wife this morning, would that mandate that I ONLY spoke to my wife this morning? Your "logic" is sure amiss....

Yup, the only verse you have is one that doesn't at all state what you do.

Here's just a sample of verses that say the opposite of your point:


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so much more...




.

Josiah, has Christ made the entire world without spot or wrinkle so that the entire world might be holy and without blemish?
Yes or no?
What does the text say? Who did Christ love? What did Christ do for the church?
Does Christ do that for the entire world?

You are tossing verses around. Actually explain every verse and how it teaches semi-pelagianism like you teach. Put down your copy and paste and actually teach what scripture verse teaches.

[/QUOTE]Josiah...you do realize that YOU are the one who is requiring the word ONLY. . don't you? You have, once again, created a faux argument that you are having with yourself.
Now, if you cannot address the text, be a good person and stop posting. You add nothing to the discussion.
What does Ephesians 5 teach us?


Ephesians 5:25-27

...Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

The world is not included.

Why do you disagree with the text?

 

[MennoSota]

Or we refuse to accept your version of it.

91, you never use scripture. What version do you even accept?

 

[Josiah]

What does Ephesians 5 teach us?


Ephesians 5:25-27

...Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

... what it says. What it does NOT say is that Christ died ONLY for the elect or Calvinists or blondes or Americans. There's no "only" or "exclusively" in the verse. Your ENTIRE POINT is entirely missing. YOU say it, but the only verse you can offer obviously does not.

The world is not included.

Because you just ignore the following:

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so many more...


Why do you disagree with what God says? Why do you quote a verse that only says what you do IF you entirely change it by inserting a word that's clearly not there?




.

 

[MennoSota]

... what it says. What it does NOT say is that Christ died ONLY for the elect or Calvinists or blondes or Americans. There's no "only" or "exclusively" in the verse. Your ENTIRE POINT is entirely missing. YOU say it, but the only verse you can offer obviously does not.






Because you just ignore the following:

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

and so many more...


Why do you disagree with what God says? Why do you quote a verse that only says what you do IF you entirely change it by inserting a word that's clearly not there?




.

You are a broken record.
What it says is that Christ loved the church.
What it doesn't come say is that Christ loved the entire world.
What it says is that Christ sanctifies the church and makes it holy, without blemish.
What it doesn't say is that Christ makes the entire world holy and without blemish.
What it says is what Reformed theology says as well. What it doesn't say is what universalists and free will proponents say...that Christ loves all humanity. You never find any inkling that God loves all humanity. Nowhere do you find it. Even John 3:16 is not saying God loves all humanity.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You're right. The Lord Jesus Christ died for the elect. But your idea of who and what the elect are is mistaken.

Ephesians 5:22-33 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. [SUP]23[/SUP] For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Saviour. [SUP]24[/SUP] Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands. [SUP]25[/SUP] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, [SUP]26[/SUP] in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, [SUP]27[/SUP] so as to present the church to himself in splendour, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind--yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. [SUP]28[/SUP] In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [SUP]29[/SUP] For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, [SUP]30[/SUP] because we are members of his body. [SUP]31[/SUP] 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' [SUP]32[/SUP] This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the church. [SUP]33[/SUP] Each of you, however, should love his wife as himself, and a wife should respect her husband.

Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [SUP]2[/SUP] and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. [SUP]3[/SUP] Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. [SUP]4[/SUP] Whoever says, 'I have come to know him', but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; [SUP]5[/SUP] but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [SUP]6[/SUP] whoever says, 'I abide in him', ought to walk just as he walked.

Keep your eyes open, read the holy scriptures with understanding as adults. Stop being children in your level of understanding.

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] objected that "the whole world" means something like for the sins of all the elect no matter what social strata they come from so in response ...

It only means that when you read the passage thus:

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world for the sins of all the elect no matter what social strata they come from [SUP][correcting the obvious error in the bible so that it fits John Calvin's teachings better][/SUP]. 3 Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, 'I have come to know him', but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, 'I abide in him', ought to walk just as he walked.​

But if a chap is prepared to do that then why bother with the bible for any teaching. Just change the sola from sola scriptura to sola Calvinus.

Because y'all refuse to actually read scripture. Go ask your priest MC.

I read and posted holy scripture but you didn't like it - refusing to believe that "the whole world" means "the whole world".

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] objected that "the whole world" means something like for the sins of all the elect no matter what social strata they come from so in response ...





I read and posted holy scripture but you didn't like it - refusing to believe that "the whole world" means "the whole world".

Do you believe that Christ saved all with his shed blood or only some?
Was Jesus blood spilled in vain for the vast majority of human kind? If so, what an inefficient and uneffective sacrifice Jesus provided.
Can you point to any place in scripture that speaks to Jesus sacrifice failing to atone for sins?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you believe that Christ saved all with his shed blood or only some?

I believe that if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Was Jesus blood spilled in vain for the vast majority of human kind? If so, what an inefficient and uneffective sacrifice Jesus provided.
Can you point to any place in scripture that speaks to Jesus sacrifice failing to atone for sins?

 

[MennoSota]

I believe that if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

You speak like a universalist.
You also imply that some might never sin.
What you don't have is any scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You speak like a universalist.

I quote what the holy scripture says. You disagree with holy scripture. That's all.

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, 'I have come to know him', but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, 'I abide in him', ought to walk just as he walked.

 

[MennoSota]

I quote what the holy scripture says. You disagree with holy scripture. That's all.

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, 'I have come to know him', but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, 'I abide in him', ought to walk just as he walked.

Who is John writing to? Is he writing to the ungodly and pagans around him?
For your theory to work, you need to say yes. You need to state that John was writing to unsaved, unredeemed sinners.
If he was writing to believers, then your whole thought is blown up as rediculous.
So...go ahead and tell us that John's audience was not even Christian.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Who is John writing to?

Saint John is writing to anybody who reads his letter. He addressed it to no particular group but he calls to mind the experiences of his readers and encourages them to have faith in Jesus Christ.

When saint John wrote if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world he means for his readers to be assured that Christ died for "our sins" and "for the sins of the whole world". That is why he says it that way. But saint John is not the only writer to apply Christ's work to the whole world.

Saint Paul writes: 1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [SUP]4[/SUP] who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [SUP]5[/SUP] For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, [SUP]6[/SUP] who gave himself a ransom for all--this was attested at the right time.

Saint Peter writes: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

God is, after all, the saviour of all people: 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.

The gospel message is repent and believe because the kingdom of God is at hand.

Is he writing to the ungodly and pagans around him?
For your theory to work, you need to say yes. You need to state that John was writing to unsaved, unredeemed sinners.
If he was writing to believers, then your whole thought is blown up as rediculous.
So...go ahead and tell us that John's audience was not even Christian.

 

[Josiah]

What it says is that Christ loved the church.

Your CLAIM is that it says that Christ loved ONLY the church. But that's an obvious falsehood. This is the only verse you have, and the claim you make that it says Christ died only for the elect is a falsehood, as all know.

What it doesn't come say is that Christ loved the entire world.

Proverbs 8:7 also doesn't say that Christ is divine, but does that mean ERGO He is not? How silly of you....



Try reading the following, and don't deny what God says but accept it...

1 John 2:2 Note: Not only for our sins but for the sins of "the whole world"

Hebrews 2:9 Note died for "everyone"

John 1:29 Note: Of the "whole world"

1 John 4:14 Note: "Savior of the whole world"

John 4:42 Note: "Savior of the world"

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)


Now, IMO, "world" is a larger group than "church" or "elect" or "Calvinists" or "Men over six feet tall" or "Americans" or "cute girls."


Now, can you quote a verse that says what you do: That Jesus died ONLY for a few? Some verses that would contradict the above Scriptures? Because so far, you have ONE verse and it doesn't remotely say what you do.




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