Salvation - Part 2

[Arsenios]

Arsenios-

True, I cannot know how you feel or what motivates you (and should not theorize). Sorry.

Thank-you, Josiah -

Now will you agree to stop attributing motives to my words?
And to actually begin to cite the words themselves instead?

But this IS obvious: Some Protestant posts "Jesus is the Savior" or "Jesus saves" -
and the response from you is NOT: "I agree" or "That's right"...

Another slander - My response EVERY TIME is "I agree" or "That's right"...

You cannot SAY what my response is without quoting (me) - what I actually did say...

Yet this you just did, telling me I NEVER agree that Jesus is our Savior Who Saves us...
Without citing my actual words...

and then the discussion ends because we simply have full agreement (the thread lasting 2 or 3 posts).

The discussion continues because you attribute a false understanding to my agreement,
telling me I do NOT agree that Christ is our Savior...

This is crackers, Josiah...

NOR is it ever a case of "That's absolutely right - but remember what Luther and Calvin so much stressed, immediately we are called to MANY things and those are not optional!"

Luther and Calvin are YOUR schticker, not mine...

I am responsible for the Fathers of the Faith, beginning with Moses...

And I am weak in this responsibility...

Because then the whole thread would end, too - because everyone would thus fully agree. And yet..... my full unseparated brother..... these threads go on and on and on and on and on.... for hundreds of posts.... sometimes for hundreds of pages of posts.... often quite passionate.... the Protestants reposting "Jesus is the Savior" and "Jesus saves" and a few non-Protestants being very passionate in arguing that, debating that. Friend, it's OBVIOUS and it's UNDENIABLE. And it's been true at CH since it started. And it's true at every other Christian discussion forum I know of. Hum.

Josiah, Listen:

The argument is not and never has been about WHO is our Savior...
It IS about HOW He dispenses OUR Salvation...

Think about that.

Great advice - You might consider taking it some time!
And please stop slandering people with whom you disagree...

Thank-you...

fwiw - I too always give other people the advice I am not using...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The only sprinkling I've ever seen in a church is when the pastor sprinkles the congregation at Easter time during the Easter Vigil mass but that isn't baptism.

I was baptized in the Presbyterian Church by sprinkling while being held in my Mother's arms as a wee toddler...
I remember that event... I was less than two years old - Perhaps 12-14 months old...

My written prayer at confirmation at 14 was to a God I did not believe existed, and started out with "IF you exist... (etc)"

And I was confirmed as a matter of social decor...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, Listen:

The argument is not and never has been about WHO is our Savior...
It IS about HOW He dispenses OUR Salvation...

.

1. Thus, I'm ever wondering.... WHY..... whenever any Protestant posts "Jesus is the Savior" or "Jesus saves".... we don't get a "That's right!" (and thus the thread ends because we're all in full agreement - the entire thread lasting maybe 2 or 3 posts). Nope. Never is like that. Not here, not at any ecumenical website. Nope. Some Protestant posts, "Jesus is the Savior" or "Jesus saves" and here comes 2 or 3 non-Protestants with post after post, on and on and on and on, for hundreds of posts.... even hundreds of pages of posts..... debating that, arguing that.... on and on and on and on. See.... here's what seems likely to me. If the Catholic or Orthodox or whatever agreed that "Jesus is the Savior" and/or "Jesus saves" they would just post "AMEN!" and that would be that. Or if they wanted to say, "AMEN! Absolutely! Soli Deo Gloria!!! And let's remember that point Luther and Calvin stressed SO much in the Reformation, Christians are called to many and great things that are not optional!" But that too would end the thread because of course everyone agreed with Luther and Calvin on that back then and everyone still does. But the protestors to "Jesus is the Savior" say neither. They just go on and on and on and on (we're on post 441 in this this thread) with 2 or 3 debating, arguing, protesting what the Protestant posted. Hum.


2. Nice you telling God HOW to do everything... but the problem (besides the egoism of even attempting that) is HOW you tell God to do it flatly contradicts what He says. He says it has nothing to do with the will and works of fallen man (because.... well..... who is the Savior? Who saves whom?) "NOT because of man's will or works" but you make EVERYTHING depend on fallen man first willing and working. When you make up your mind, let us know. Here's just ONE of the problems with self appointing self to tell God how to do things: your theory can't outright contradict what God has clearly said. Ephesians 2:1, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Ephesians 2:8-9, , John 1:29, 1 Timothy 1:15, John 3:16, etc., etc., etc. YES, of course, without debate, God calls for MUCH - and with God, with faith, with life, with the Holy Spirit - it's a call heard and (perhaps) fulfilled, but it's not that the DEAD will and work - and as fair payment, God thus grants the wage (making Jesus irrelevant and the Savior fallen man being his fallen self by his willing and working).





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[Andrew]

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[Arsenios]

1. Thus, I'm ever wondering.... WHY..... whenever any Protestant posts "Jesus is the Savior" or "Jesus saves".... we don't get a "That's right!"

Everyone agrees with that statement...

It is the baggage you pack into it that gives pause...

eg, for instance:
"We are saved prior to repentance"
And this when the Call of God is unto Repentance
unto entry into the Kingdom of Heaven...

2. Nice you telling God HOW to do everything...

It is hard for you to repent from slander, isn't it?


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

1. Thus, I'm ever wondering.... WHY..... whenever any Protestant posts "Jesus is the Savior" or "Jesus saves".... we don't get a "That's right!" (and thus the thread ends because we're all in full agreement - the entire thread lasting maybe 2 or 3 posts).

Amen and Amen, Jesus is the Lord and saviour of all the faithful. Is the thread over now? Let's see.

 

[Andrew]

Amen and Amen, Jesus is the Lord and saviour of all the faithful. Is the thread over now? Let's see.

I agree Amen!!

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree Amen!!

Let's see if that end it all

:smirk:

 

[Arsenios]

Let's see if that ends it all

May God Bless us all...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Amen and Amen, Jesus is the Lord and saviour of all the faithful. Is the thread over now? Let's see.

Ah. So it all hinges on the dead, fallen sinner being "faithful" - THEN Jesus saves them. Ah, I see how you fundamentally disagree.




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[MoreCoffee]

Ah. So it all hinges on the dead, fallen sinner being "faithful" - THEN Jesus saves them. Ah, I see how you fundamentally disagree.

:smirk:

Looks like Josiah doesn't want it to be over, yet. One more round, at least. Now Josiah rejects - or at least objects to - the term "the faithful". Looks like a manufactured dispute about words. Let's see how this develops.

 

[Albion]

You would agree, wouldn't you, that "the faithful" refers to those who have faith? It does not mean "good workers" or refer to those who are spiritually dead.


The reason that the thread does not wrap up is because of repeated attempts to represent the concept of salvation as being something we accomplish out of our own efforts. See this gem for example:

THAT, you see, is the EKONOMIA of God's Plan for human Salvation...
We are to live repentant lives overcoming evil powers and principalities...
IF we step this Way of Salvation, we CAN do so...
And IF we do so, God will Raise us to Himself...

.

 

[Arsenios]

Ah. So it all hinges on the dead, fallen sinner being "faithful" - THEN Jesus saves them. Ah, I see how you fundamentally disagree.

Well that remark sure floats and bobs aromatically in the punch-bowl!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The reason that the thread does not wrap up is because of repeated attempts to represent the concept of salvation as being something we accomplish out of our own efforts. See this gem for example:

No one has ever argued that our Salvation by God comes OUT OF our own efforts...

Hence your accusation is utterly false...

But neither does it come WITHOUT our own efforts...

Paul said it best, for our Salvation comes THROUGH the Faith (of Christ, which He discipled to His Apostles), and the Praxis of that Faith is the Great Work of man wherein man finds Salvation BY God Who ALONE can give it, because it can only be granted BY God, because it is God's Gift of Himself TO man...

All the Nations are by Christ's Command to be Apostolically discipled, being Baptized and taught to observe ALL that Christ commanded His Apostles...

"Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (John the Baptist}

"I came not to judge the world but to CALL sinners to repentance..." (Christ our Savior)

"But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe unto His Name:" (John the Evangelist)

"Whom God Called, these He also Justified..." (Paul the Apostle)

"And whosoever is living and believing in Me shall never die."

God saves sinners whom He Calls to repentance...
As many as receive Him believing unto His Name...
Salvation is Union with God...
The Mystery of the Marriage of the Lamb...
Christ within you...
You who are within Christ...

Living and Believing in Christ IS Life Eternal...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

No one has ever argued that our Salvation by God comes OUT OF our own efforts...

Hence your accusation is false

Yes, they have; and the evidence is right on this thread. I have quoted some of it myself.

So, although it seems peculiar to have people asserting their sincere belief but, at the same time, feeling the need to camouflage it with double talk, that is the reason why the thread will not die.

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, they have; and the evidence is right on this thread. I have quoted some of it myself.

So, although it seems peculiar to have people asserting their sincere belief but, at the same time, feeling the need to camouflage it with double talk, that is the reason why the thread will not die.

You quoted me, and in that quote I did not say that we are saved by or out of our works...

I said that GOD WILL RAISE US UNTO HIMSELF...

AND:

This through our own works... (not by or out of)

Is this the "double talk" you mean?

We are Saved by Grace through the Faith (of Christ)

That Faith is Obedience to Christ...

"IF you love Me you will keep My Commandments..."

Obedience is a work we are Called to DO unto our Salvation...

And without Christ we can do nothing...
Nor can the cereal killer...
(Old Halloween joke)

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So the issue is this:

Is the Faith a work man DOES?

Or is it a belief man is given?

Similarly, is the Command to LOVE thy neighbor and to LOVE God an emotional feeling
or is it an obedience to do good unto them?

And the fact is we are CALLED BY GOD to OBEY THE GOSPEL...

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1PeTER 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them
that obey not the Gospel of God?



Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So the issue is this:

Is the Faith a work man DOES?

Or is it a belief man is given?

Similarly, is the Command to LOVE thy neighbor and to LOVE God an emotional feeling or is it an obedience?

And the fact is we are CALLED BY GOD to OBEY THE GOSPEL...

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1PETER 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them
that obey not the Gospel of God?



Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

You quoted me, and in that quote I did not say that we are saved by or out of our works...

I said that GOD WILL RAISE US UNTO HIMSELF...

AND:

This through our own works... (not by or out of)

Is this the "double talk you mean?

We are Saved by Grace through the Faith (of Christ)

That Faith is Obedience to Christ...

"IF you love Me you will keep My Commandments..."

Obedience is a work we are Called to DO unto our Salvation...

And without Christ we can do nothing...
Nor can the cereal killer...
(Old Halloween joke)

Arsenios

We have two great commandments that hold the law of the prophets, it should not be taken lightly, not everyone who says "Lord Lord" will enter the kingdom, faith brings forth good works, without good works you have dead faith/no faith.
Again... Faith brings forth good works (good works imo literally means charity/love and goodwill towards mankind)

 

[Andrew]

A Short Story: by DHoffmann

---------
Meet Joe, Joe has faith
Joe used to avoid homeless people when he would pass by them but now his new found faith in Christ has done something interesting to him, Joe knows that he can offer a homeless man his jacket and bring him some warm soup from the kitchen around the corner. Joe was going to use the money for the soup to buy a new case for his phone but he changed his mind instead.

Meet Jack, Jack says he has faith
Jack used to acknowledge the homeless when he passed by them and would occasionally toss a few coins in their cups but lately Jack feels that no matter what he does it doesn't really matter because he is secure in his belief. Jack now avoids the homeless.

Joe has Faith, Jacks faith is dead.
Be like Joe


The End
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