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MennoSota

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I did not ask for your opinion. Your opinion is not relevant. I asked about Catholic Church teaching. What is actually dogmatically taught by the Catholic Church.

So once again The Catholic Church does not teach that grace is empowering/enabling. Your claim about what "Catholics hold" is erroneous.
Ask 100 priests and you'll get 100 different answers, MC.
I live in the heart of liberal Catholicism and Josiah is right on the money.
 

MoreCoffee

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Ask 100 priests and you'll get 100 different answers, MC.
I live in the heart of liberal Catholicism and Josiah is right on the money.

Ask 35,000 protestant pastors and get 50,000 different answers, Mennosota.

Opinions are expensive at 1 per person.
 

Albion

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Ask 35,000 protestant pastors and get 50,000 different answers, Mennosota.
The difference is that the Protestant pastors are members of different denominations and so there is no presumption that they ought to agree. The (Roman) Catholic priests are all members of one denomination...and they claim that it is a church that cannot be wrong and has no internal divisions. :rolleyes:
 

MoreCoffee

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The difference is that the Protestant pastors are members of different denominations
You are correct to assert that Protestant pastors are [or may be] members of different denominations, and some are in the same denomination but they have different opinions. People are people, some think this way others think that way and everybody has his/her reasons for their current opinion and when it changes then a new reason is found for the new opinion. But a Church's teaching is less fickle, less inclined to rapid changes. At least that is how it seems.
and so there is no presumption that they ought to agree.
They should agree if they are all drawing their opinions from the allegedly clear teaching of their bibles. Of course the fact is that they do not agree and still claim to be drawing their opinions from the allegedly clear teaching of their bibles. And they use the same bibles, some even use exactly the same translation (KJV, or NIV). Yet they differ. Maybe that is because the allegedly clear teaching in their bibles is not clear.
The (Roman) Catholic priests are all members of one denomination...and they claim that it is a church that cannot be wrong and has no internal divisions.
The church has one official set of teachings, people in the Church have their own understand of the Church's teaching and some are ignorant of Church teaching for whatever reasons. The fact is that people have opinions and nobody claims that is not so. But Josiah keeps referring to the opinions he claims were taught to him by his teachers as if those were Catholic Church teaching. Obviously, from what Josiah has written, the remembered teaching he had was not Catholic Church teaching. What the Catholic Curch teaches is presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in other official documents of the Catholic Church. Anybody can find those sources online free of monetary cost. There's no need to rely on remembered teacher's lessons. Just go to the source and read. It is very helpful when the aim is to know accurately what the Catholic Church teaches, as distinct from what a former Catholic alleges was taught to him/her by some teacher.
 

MennoSota

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Ask 35,000 protestant pastors and get 50,000 different answers, Mennosota.

Opinions are expensive at 1 per person.
The point is your catechism is a hodge podge of double speak and pretzeling so that no one can discern the actual answer.
It's better to toss it out and just read scripture to find truth.
 

MennoSota

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You are correct to assert that Protestant pastors are [or may be] members of different denominations, and some are in the same denomination but they have different opinions. People are people, some think this way others think that way and everybody has his/her reasons for their current opinion and when it changes then a new reason is found for the new opinion. But a Church's teaching is less fickle, less inclined to rapid changes. At least that is how it seems. They should agree if they are all drawing their opinions from the allegedly clear teaching of their bibles. Of course the fact is that they do not agree and still claim to be drawing their opinions from the allegedly clear teaching of their bibles. And they use the same bibles, some even use exactly the same translation (KJV, or NIV). Yet they differ. Maybe that is because the allegedly clear teaching in their bibles is not clear. The church has one official set of teachings, people in the Church have their own understand of the Church's teaching and some are ignorant of Church teaching for whatever reasons. The fact is that people have opinions and nobody claims that is not so. But Josiah keeps referring to the opinions he claims were taught to him by his teachers as if those were Catholic Church teaching. Obviously, from what Josiah has written, the remembered teaching he had was not Catholic Church teaching. What the Catholic Curch teaches is presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in other official documents of the Catholic Church. Anybody can find those sources online free of monetary cost. There's no need to rely on remembered teacher's lessons. Just go to the source and read. It is very helpful when the aim is to know accurately what the Catholic Church teaches, as distinct from what a former Catholic alleges was taught to him/her by some teacher.
You like Kool-aid...
 

MoreCoffee

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The point is your catechism
Have you read The Catechism of the Catholic Church?
is a hodge podge of double speak and pretzeling
I ask because I am just wondering if you're typing nonsense or if you really know anything about what is in the Catechism. It seems more like you do not know what is in it. So your post is uninformed comment firmly grounded in nothing substantial.
so that no one can discern the actual answer.
No one can discern the answer, you say? I can discern the answer if it is a question answered in the Catechism. It is not hard to find what is said on most topics. Since this thread is about salvation I posted the "answer" a while back. I'd post it again but why bother if you're not going to read it? Still, if you want to read it then take a look at post #787. It's informative, for people who want to be informed.
It's better to toss it out and just read scripture to find truth.
I look at your posts and if they are the product of "toss it out and just read scripture" then your advice is bad. It leads to nothing good.
 

MennoSota

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Have you read The Catechism of the Catholic Church? I ask because I am just wondering if you're typing nonsense or if you really know anything about what is in the Catechism. It seems more like you do not know what is in it. So your post is uninformed comment firmly grounded in nothing substantial. No one can discern the answer, you say? I can discern the answer if it is a question answered in the Catechism. It is not hard to find what is said on most topics. Since this thread is about salvation I posted the "answer" a while back. I'd post it again but why bother if you're not going to read it? Still, if you want to read it then take a look at post #787. It's informative, for people who want to be informed. I look at your posts and if they are the product of "toss it out and just read scripture" then your advice is bad. It leads to nothing good.
I have read what you publish and it is a pretzel that makes it much harder to actually understand what God is saying. All Christians must read God's word first and foremost and be careful when reading convoluted commentary.
 

MoreCoffee

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You like Kool-aid...

Kool-aid must be a USA thing; we don't have any in Australia, unless some USA person imports it for his/her own use. What is it? Something one is supposed to drink, eat, snack upon?

Just a reminder, for those interested in information so that they can be informed rather than uninformed on the matter of salvation and how it is taught in the Catholic Church. This is what is said at mass before holy communion is received by the faithful.
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
that you accept
and bless ✠ these gifts, these offerings,
these holy and unblemished sacrifices,
which we offer you firstly
for your holy catholic Church.
Be pleased to grant her peace,
to guard, unite and govern her
throughout the whole world,
together with your servant Francis. our Pope
and Timothy. our Bishop,
and all those who, holding to the truth,
hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.
Remember, Lord, your servants who have died
and all gathered here,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
for the redemption of their souls,
in hope of health and well-being,
and paying their homage to you,
the eternal God, living and true.


In communion with those whose memory we venerate,
especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary,
Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ,
and blessed Joseph, her Spouse,
your blessed Apostles and Martyrs,
Peter and Paul, Andrew,
(James, John,
Thomas, James, Philip,
Bartholomew, Matthew,
Simon and Jude;
Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus,
Cornelius, Cyprian,
Lawrence, Chrysogonus,
John and Paul,
Cosmas and Damian)
and all your Saints;
we ask that through their merits and prayers,
in all things we may be defended
by your protecting help.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
Therefore, Lord, we pray:
graciously accept this oblation of our service,
that of your whole family;
order our days in your peace,
and command that we be delivered from eternal damnation
and counted among the flock of those you have chosen.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
Be pleased, O God, we pray,
to bless, acknowledge,
and approve this offering in every respect;
make it spiritual and acceptable,
so that it may become for us
the Body and Blood of your most beloved Son,
our Lord Jesus Christ.
On the day before he was to suffer,
he took bread in his holy and venerable hands,
and with eyes raised to heaven
to you, O God, his almighty Father,
giving you thanks, he said the blessing,
broke the bread
and gave it to his disciples, saying:
Take this, all of you, and eat of it,
for this is my Body,
which will be given up for you.
In a similar way, when supper was ended,
he took this precious chalice
in his holy and venerable hands,
and once more giving you thanks, he said the blessing
and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:
Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my Blood,
the Blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.

The mystery of faith.

We proclaim your Death, O Lord,
and profess your Resurrection
until you come again.

Therefore, O Lord,
as we celebrate the memorial of the blessed Passion,
the Resurrection from the dead,
and the glorious Ascension into heaven
of Christ, your Son, our Lord,
we, your servants and your holy people,
offer to your glorious majesty
from the gifts that you have given us,
this pure victim,
this holy victim,
this spotless victim,
the holy Bread of eternal life
and the Chalice of everlasting salvation.
Be pleased to look upon these offerings
with a serene and kindly countenance,
and to accept them,
as once you were pleased to accept
the gifts of your servant Abel the just,
the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith,
and the offering of your high priest Melchizedek,
a holy sacrifice, a spotless victim.
In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God:
command that these gifts be borne
by the hands of your holy Angel
to your altar on high
in the sight of your divine majesty,
so that all of us, who through this participation at the altar
receive the most holy Body and Blood of your Son,
may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing.
There's a lesson about the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, in the prayers of the church.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I have read what you publish
May what you read from The Catechism of the Catholic Church be for the salvation of your soul and the enlightenment of your mind.
and it is a pretzel that makes it much harder to actually understand what God is saying.
Pray for wisdom and God promises to give it. But if anyone among you is in need of wisdom, let him petition God, who gives abundantly to all without reproach, and it shall be given to him. (James 1:5)
All Christians must read God's word first and foremost and be careful when reading convoluted commentary.
 

Arsenios

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May you all have a blessed Feast Day of the Nativity of the Mother of our Lord this day...
as we commemorate in the Apostolic Church her blessed birth...
from the union of Joachim and Anna...

"For all generations shall call me Blessed..."

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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May you all have a blessed Feast Day of the Nativity of the Mother of our Lord this day...
as we commemorate in the Apostolic Church her blessed birth...
from the union of Joachim and Anna...

"For all generations shall call me Blessed..."

Arsenios

Amen.

The Catholic Church celebrates today the birth of the Blessed Virgin Mary on its traditional fixed date of September 8, nine months after the December 8 celebration of her Immaculate Conception as the child of Saints Joachim and Anne.

The circumstances of the Virgin Mary's infancy and early life are not directly recorded in the Bible, but other documents and traditions describing the circumstances of her birth are cited by some of the earliest Christian writers from the first centuries of the Church.
 

TurtleHare

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No idea why the virgin's birth is here in a salvation thread since her role was done and past and she's dead now.
 

Josiah

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No idea why the virgin's birth is here in a salvation thread since her role was done and past and she's dead now.


It's diversion. In debate. it's sometimes referred to as "the shell game."


SAD, because this is the issue on which Christianity stands or falls, the keystone of the faith... and there should be NO subject about which a believer should be more clear, bold and confident. The confusion, the entangling, the dancing-around we witness here among a few is very troubling and concerning. The Devil works as hard as he can to make this issue seem complex and I suspect he succeed at times. The issue is simple: WHO IS THE SAVIOR? Jesus or self? Are we trusting in the one we see on the Cross or the one we see in the mirror? WHOSE works, WHOSE choices, WHOSE righteousness, WHOSE love, WHOSE holiness? If we look to Christ, when we are trusting in CHRIST (and ergo not self). If we look to self, then we are trusting in self and not Christ. It's not the complicated, entangled mess the devil wants us to believe, that we MUST believe in order for him to destroy our faith and gain us.


Now, everyone agrees (and has agreed for 2000 years) that the CHRISTIAN (the Justified in this sense, the one WITH the divine gift of spiritual life, the one WITH the divine gift of faith, the one WITH the divine gift of the Holy Spirit) is called to MUCH. But that's another topic for another day and thread and one about which there is virtually no disagreement or debate, and one which all "sides" in the Reformation fully and passionately AGREED upon. The desire to switch the discussion to that is a classic example of "the shell game." Lutherans and Catholics AGREED on Baptism as a means of grace and on Real Presence in the Eucharist and trying to substitute those subjects is again a classic example of "the shell game."


The issue is simple: In this issue of narrow Justification
(THE issue of the Reformation, THE issue the RC denomination said was THE dividing issue), who is the Savior? Is the answer Christ (as Luther and Calvin insisted) or is that position the horrible apostate heresy (worthy of excommunication and of splitting Christianity) and the resulting 500 + years of condemnation and repudiation by the RC denomination? Remember: ALL insisted the divisive issue was NOT what Christians should or should not do ... not Baptism... not even Communion (Transubstantiation not being doctrine in the RCC until after Luther's death). It was and is - above all, as the 'deal breaker' - narrow justification. Are we to look to the Cross or the mirror? Is Jesus the Savior or some vague combination of Helper, Possibility-Maker, Offerer, Door-Opener?


There is no issue in all eternity more important.... and none on which we should be more clear and bold.




- Josiah




.
 

MoreCoffee

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No idea why the virgin's birth is here in a salvation thread since her role was done and past and she's dead now.

I thought of the post as a blessing to all who read it rather than as a debating point in the thread's theme. Like saying "God bless you my brothers and sisters"
 

MennoSota

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Kool-aid must be a USA thing; we don't have any in Australia, unless some USA person imports it for his/her own use. What is it? Something one is supposed to drink, eat, snack upon?

Just a reminder, for those interested in information so that they can be informed rather than uninformed on the matter of salvation and how it is taught in the Catholic Church. This is what is said at mass before holy communion is received by the faithful.
To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
that you accept
and bless ✠ these gifts, these offerings,
these holy and unblemished sacrifices,
which we offer you firstly
for your holy catholic Church.
Be pleased to grant her peace,
to guard, unite and govern her
throughout the whole world,
together with your servant Francis. our Pope
and Timothy. our Bishop,
and all those who, holding to the truth,
hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.
Remember, Lord, your servants who have died
and all gathered here,
whose faith and devotion are known to you.
For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise
for the redemption of their souls,
in hope of health and well-being,
and paying their homage to you,
the eternal God, living and true.


In communion with those whose memory we venerate,
especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary,
Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ,
and blessed Joseph, her Spouse,
your blessed Apostles and Martyrs,
Peter and Paul, Andrew,
(James, John,
Thomas, James, Philip,
Bartholomew, Matthew,
Simon and Jude;
Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus,
Cornelius, Cyprian,
Lawrence, Chrysogonus,
John and Paul,
Cosmas and Damian)
and all your Saints;
we ask that through their merits and prayers,
in all things we may be defended
by your protecting help.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
Therefore, Lord, we pray:
graciously accept this oblation of our service,
that of your whole family;
order our days in your peace,
and command that we be delivered from eternal damnation
and counted among the flock of those you have chosen.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
Be pleased, O God, we pray,
to bless, acknowledge,
and approve this offering in every respect;
make it spiritual and acceptable,
so that it may become for us
the Body and Blood of your most beloved Son,
our Lord Jesus Christ.
On the day before he was to suffer,
he took bread in his holy and venerable hands,
and with eyes raised to heaven
to you, O God, his almighty Father,
giving you thanks, he said the blessing,
broke the bread
and gave it to his disciples, saying:
Take this, all of you, and eat of it,
for this is my Body,
which will be given up for you.
In a similar way, when supper was ended,
he took this precious chalice
in his holy and venerable hands,
and once more giving you thanks, he said the blessing
and gave the chalice to his disciples, saying:
Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my Blood,
the Blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.

The mystery of faith.

We proclaim your Death, O Lord,
and profess your Resurrection
until you come again.

Therefore, O Lord,
as we celebrate the memorial of the blessed Passion,
the Resurrection from the dead,
and the glorious Ascension into heaven
of Christ, your Son, our Lord,
we, your servants and your holy people,
offer to your glorious majesty
from the gifts that you have given us,
this pure victim,
this holy victim,
this spotless victim,
the holy Bread of eternal life
and the Chalice of everlasting salvation.
Be pleased to look upon these offerings
with a serene and kindly countenance,
and to accept them,
as once you were pleased to accept
the gifts of your servant Abel the just,
the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith,
and the offering of your high priest Melchizedek,
a holy sacrifice, a spotless victim.
In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God:
command that these gifts be borne
by the hands of your holy Angel
to your altar on high
in the sight of your divine majesty,
so that all of us, who through this participation at the altar
receive the most holy Body and Blood of your Son,
may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing.
There's a lesson about the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, in the prayers of the church.
MC, I don't have enough time to point out the massive theological flaws in the prayer you shared as well as the works salvation it represents.
 

MennoSota

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May what you read from The Catechism of the Catholic Church be for the salvation of your soul and the enlightenment of your mind. Pray for wisdom and God promises to give it. But if anyone among you is in need of wisdom, let him petition God, who gives abundantly to all without reproach, and it shall be given to him. (James 1:5)
God's wisdom tells us the Catholic catechism is teaching falsely.
 

Arsenios

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It's diversion.
In debate, it's sometimes referred to as "the shell game."

Psalm 105:3
Glory ye in his holy name:
let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.


I would rather be an outcast in the House of the Lord...
Diverting evils with the game of shells...
Than dwell in the tents of the ungodly...

Hearts harden in childhood...
When adults betray children...

Today is the day in which we commemorate Jesus' Mom's Birthday...
Called the Feast of the Nativity of the Theotokos [the God-Birther]...
Sorry if you do not wish to receive that blessing...

"A heart that is broken and humbled...
God will not despise..."


Perhaps you will remember your own mother's birthday...
We are all, I hope, Brethren in Christ...
Sons and daughters of the Most High by Adoption...
Perhaps we can remember our Mother this Day...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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The issue is simple:
Narrow Justification

I cannot find this "Narrow Justification" in the Bible...
i cannot find it in the first one and a half millennia of Christian history...
You have not established it as a relevant Christian concept...

The Bible only speaks of Justification...
It NEVER speaks of NARROW Justification...

I am sorry if you were misled as a child by your Catholic teachers...
Getting over childhood mistreatment in Love is a good thing...

Arsenios
 
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