Salvation

Status
Not open for further replies.

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
I told it to you because your posts are the ones making false claims about salvation. The scripture says God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit but you appears to teach otherwise.
Those verses have nothing to do with salvation. Perhaps you incapable of discerning this?
 
Last edited:

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is something that needs to be said on this topic with which no one seems willing to engage...
And that something is life and death...
It began in the Garden:

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof
thou shalt surely die.


Adam and Eve did eat of that tree,
and in the day in which they did so eat,
in that day they died...

So that our Salvation is ALL about God's restoration of Life to Adam...
And beyond that restoration and indeed its means...
It is about God giving His Life to fallen and sinful man...

That Life in Christ in this fallen life is given in an earnest...
It is not given in its full measure...
But it IS given, given by God...

And we are entered into this Life,
Indeed we are entered into Christ,
By being Baptized into Christ...
And by putting on Christ therein...

For as many of you...
as have been Baptized into Christ...
Have put on Christ... [Gal 3:27]

Outside of Christ, we have no Life in us...
Outside of Christ, we have Old Testament Salvation...
We may be saturated in the Holy Spirit...
We may raise the dead...
We may call down the Holy Fire...
We may close the heavens...
And in these attainments of great faith, we do NOT have Salvation...
We SHALL be saved at the last Judgement...
We ARE NOT saved here and now...
And most of those who ARE saved here and now...
Are UNABLE to do the things of the Old Testament Saints...

And the difference is the "Mystery of the Faith, which is Christ IN you..."
In these latter times this means a conjoining with God in Baptism...
Baptism is the poing of ENTRY INTO Christ for those who are Christians...
It is the REBIRTH of man into God the Word...
Wherein we are become a NEW CREATION in Him...
We become MEMBERS of His Holy Body, the Ekklesia...
BECAUSE we have been CONJOINED hypostatically with God...

This is UNPRECEDENTED in the entire history of Creation...

It is marvellous in our eyes...

The Book of the Acts of the Apostles is an early history of what this looks like...

It continues to be written in deeds...

Arsenios
Yet we must never regard ourselves as more than bond servants....right? Surely not in this life. Surely not in knowing sin..... Your thoughts please.

peace

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Judgement will come, and God will Judge the Living and the dead...

For as many of you as have been Baptized into Christ, have put on Christ...

If you do not eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you have NO LIFE in you...

So that having been Baptized INTO Christ...
And PARTAKING of the Divine Nature...
And living by dieing daily to the world...
We ARE saved... [now]
And we shall be saved... [Last Judgement]
And we have been saved... [Baptism]

Salvation is union with Christ...
It begins with repentance unto Baptism...
Then Baptism into Christ...
Then running the race set before us...
Overcoming demonic adversaries...
Slowly by enhanced repentance...
Putting self to death daily...
Our greatest adversaries are fought...
AFTER we enter into the Kingdom of God...

Goliath was overcome
by a humble and indignant shepherd boy
IN the Promised Land...

Those who encounter their Goliath outside Baptism into Christ...
Normally do not survive...
They commonly become monsters...
Or are killed or imprisoned...

There have always been exceptions...

Arsenios
I at times feel like I need to be literally water baptised. What are your thoughts in this regard?

Is baptism not the cleansing of the soul or heart and literal water symbolism?

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
So salvation is a gift and not dependent upon anything we do.

That is not how God set it up - It IS a Gift, and God Calls us to repentance, Justifies the repentant in Baptism, and Glorifies those Baptized who are overcoming demonic powers and principalities... These are what God set us to do in order that He give us His Gift of Salvation...

Are we in agreement, then, that this (below) which is from an earlier post of yours represents the opinion of someone else...but also that it is in error?
.

The two are both correct... God CAN save us unilaterally, but He DOES not normally do so...

He desires us to participate in our repentance from sin and the overcoming of demonic powers...

The Thief merely confessed Christ and was saved...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Yet we must never regard ourselves as more than bond servants....right? Surely not in this life. Surely not in knowing sin..... Your thoughts please.

peace

Our Bishop was walking through the airport terminal alone one day, with his Bishop's Crown in a 6-sided carrying case... And of course, the TSA wanted to know what was in the case... So he opened it...

TSA - Would you remove what is in the case so we can see it sir?

And he did...

And TSA's eyes got wide and he said: "Wow, are those real gemstones?"

And he said: "I wish..."

TSA - Are you, like, a Prince in some country?

And our bishop smiled with bright eyes, motioned upward with the flat of his hand, and said "Higher..."

TSA - "Oh, you are not a King are you??

And he said motioning upward "Higher..."

TSA - "What in the world ARE you then???"

And he said: "A SERVANT of the Most High God..."

So please, Lord, when I die...
Let it be said of me of a truth:
He was a SERVANT of the Most High God!

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,206
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Those verses have nothing to do with salvation. Are you incapable of discerning this?

Your claim is a mistake, Galatians chapter six is about salvation. It is about what Christ did for the faithful and what the faithful are to do for one another and for those seeking life.
Bear One Another’s Burdens

6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in qa spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For uif anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbour. 5 For each will have to bear his own load.

6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10 So then, gas we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Final Warning and Benediction

11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. 12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

17 From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.

18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.​

Notice that the contrast is between what is reaped from the flesh versus what is reaped from the Spirit. From the flesh comes corruption and from the Spirit comes eternal life. This is without doubt about salvation despite your claim to the contrary.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I at times feel like I need to be literally water baptised.

We all need Baptism...

What are your thoughts in this regard?

We need Christ to Baptize us through the hands of His servants in His Body, the Church...

We need Christ's Baptism, and Christ was Baptized in the Waters of the Jordan which was the boundary of the Promised Land which God gave to His Chosen ones...

Is baptism not the cleansing of the soul or heart and literal water symbolism?

Salvation has always been through water - First by the Ark of Noah, then through the Red Sea, then through Baptism into Christ... This last is a re-birth in the purity of heart given by the cleansing of the heart in the Waters of Regeneration... "For upon the Seas hath He founded the earth, and upon the Rivers hath He prepared it..."

You need Baptism into Christ in the Apostolic Faith of Christ...

Keeping the purity of heart found in Baptismal Rebirth is the Way walked by Christians for 2000 years...

Arsenios
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We all need Baptism...



We need Christ to Baptize us through the hands of His servants in His Body, the Church...

We need Christ's Baptism, and Christ was Baptized in the Waters of the Jordan which was the boundary of the Promised Land which God gave to His Chosen ones...



Salvation has always been through water - First by the Ark of Noah, then through the Red Sea, then through Baptism into Christ... This last is a re-birth in the purity of heart given by the cleansing of the heart in the Waters of Regeneration... "For upon the Seas hath He founded the earth, and upon the Rivers hath He prepared it..."

You need Baptism into Christ in the Apostolic Faith of Christ...

Keeping the purity of heart found in Baptismal Rebirth is the Way walked by Christians for 2000 years...

Arsenios
So literal water baptism does seem crutial to you?

Thank you for your sincere response friend.

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Your claim is a mistake, Galatians chapter six is about salvation. It is about what Christ did for the faithful and what the faithful are to do for one another and for those seeking life.
Bear One Another’s Burdens

6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in qa spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For uif anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbour. 5 For each will have to bear his own load.

6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10 So then, gas we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Final Warning and Benediction

11 See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. 12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

17 From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.

18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.​

Notice that the contrast is between what is reaped from the flesh versus what is reaped from the Spirit. From the flesh comes corruption and from the Spirit comes eternal life. This is without doubt about salvation despite your claim to the contrary.
The entire passage is written to those who are elect, not to those who are dead in their trespasses and sins. You are terribly mistaken.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,206
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The entire passage is written to those who are elect, not to those who are dead in their trespasses and sins. You are terribly mistaken.

Trying as hard as you can you still cannot make the passage fit your view. The truth is always more persuasive than an empty argument built on a false premise. The fact is that the passage teaches that one reaps corruption from following the flesh and one reaps eternal life from following the Holy Spirit. Eternal life is salvation. Every Christian knows that. Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Trying as hard as you can you still cannot make the passage fit your view. The truth is always more persuasive than an empty argument built on a false premise. The fact is that the passage teaches that one reaps corruption from following the flesh and one reaps eternal life from following the Holy Spirit. Eternal life is salvation. Every Christian knows that. Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
You're right. I cannot make Galatians 6 about salvation. But, somehow you think it is. smh
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,206
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works Additionally, nowhere in the holy scriptures is it teaught that we are saved by “faith alone.” The only place in all of the holy scriptures where the phrase “faith alone” appears is in James 2:24 and that verse it says that we are not justified by faith alone. The holy scriptures say very clearly that we are not saved by faith alone. Works do play a part in salvation. Numerous passages in the new testament that teach about the last judgement say that Christians will be judged by their works. Romans 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Peter 1, Revelation 20 and 22, 2 Corinthians 5, and many more passages teach that works play a role in the last judgement. Faith alone cannot save and that may be partly why 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith.

Catholics believe that the faithful are saved by God’s grace. Christians do nothing, apart from God’s grace, that contributes to their salvation. Catholics also believe that the faithful need to respond to God’s grace. Catholics believe a response of faith and works is a part of one's salvation; consider what is written in Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love” Faith working through love is what matters and that is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works .... Catholics believe that the faithful are saved by God’s grace. Additionally, nowhere in the holy scriptures is it teaught that we are saved by “faith alone.”


When you make up your mind, let us know. Is Jesus the Savior or is self? WHOSE works justify us? You can direct us to the Cross or to the Mirror... which is it?




Faith alone cannot save


The passion to make Christ small and self big is disturbing.




Catholics also believe that the faithful need to respond to God’s grace.



EVERYONE believes that. EVERYONE always have. NEVER, EVER, has this this a subject of dispute or disagreement.



TRY, my friend, to stay on topic. This point of dispute is NOT what "the faithful.... the Christian.... the Justified..... do or should do. The issue has NEVER, EVER been Sanctification (the response of faith, Christian discipleship, Christian living, the process of becoming more Christ-like). Luther went to ENORMOUS lengths to make it uber-clear he was not addressing that issue (where the RCC and Luther were in full agreement), he was addressing the issue of Justification (Gaining faith, spiritual life, a changed relationship to God). Catholicism at the time also went to great lengths to make it uber-clear that it understood this which is why it was so careful to say its dispute with Luther was in JUSTIFICATION (not Sanctification, discipleship, etc.)


While there were several issues in the Reformation, the enormous problem the RCC had (and has) with Protestantism was JUSTIFICATION - the teaching that we contribute NOTHING to our Justification, that it is purely "the free gift of God." THAT is what the RCC made the centerpiece of the Reformation, the reason for it splitting itself (again), for excluding about one-third of Christians at the time. It was SO horrified by this teaching that Jesus is the Savior, that we contribute NOTHING.... that Justification is all the result of JESUS' work. Friend, as we all know, NEVER was Sanctification even an issue.... because there was no disagreement on that. Not before the 16th Century, not during the 16th Century, not after the 16th Century. Which is both Catholics and Protestants for 500 years have STRESSED the issue was and is JUSTIFICATION (the changed relationship, the gaining of spiritual life). Trent repudiated Lutheranism for its stand on Justification, not discipleship.


As we all know, it all began with the RCC's desperate financial situation and its selling of Indulgences. The salesmen had a sales pitch, a sermon..... and it was a HORRIBLE and extreme application of synergism and Pelagianism. As a Doctor of the Church (whose role included informing the church of false teachings), Luther was required to point out this heresy, which he well documented and noted clear violations of the Council of Orange, etc., etc., etc., etc. He reasonably thought he would be thanked for this and the denomination would quickly act to correct the extreme Pelagainism of these salesmen. While it took a few months, Luther realized the RCC determined to defend the false teaching of the Indulgence sellers and, eventually, excommunicate him and split itself in order to support the theology of these indulgence sellers.





Cconsider what is written in Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through loveFaith working through love is what matters and that is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches.


EVERYONE DOES. EVERYONE always has. Try, my brother, to stay on topic..... try.

This is why the RCC for 500 years has been so uber-careful to note that its horror is NOT over what Lutherans say about Sanctification, discipleship, Christian living (because it's the same as the RCC - and always has been) - it could not and cannot rebuke Lutherans on that topic without equally condemning itself. No. The issue is JUSTIFICATION, whether Jesus is the Savior or self, whether JUSTIFICATION is monergistic or synergistic, if Pelagius is a heretic or a hero.... are we justifiied by CHRIST'S works or our own. THAT was the issue that the RCC made the centerpiece of the Reformation, the issue the RCC stressed was the "problem." NOT Christian living, NOT anyone's response to faith: That was never in dispute. You are simply TRYING to change the topic: the problem is that thus you are making the RCC's actions in the Reformation all founded on something it actually passionately AGREES with.



James 2:24


While the WORD "justification" is used, the context shows James is talking about sanctification (the entirely book is written to those who are ALREADY Christians, ALREADY with faith, ALREADY the Justified).

NO ONE disputes that "faith is busy with love" (Luther). Old Protestant proverb: "We are saved by faith alone but faith is never alone." Protestants stress this point as much as Catholics. It's just we don't substitute Sanctification for Justification, we don't insist that we are justified by OUR works rather than Jesus', we don't dogmatically insist that WE not only DO contribute to our Justification but that OUR works is actually what justifies. The Indulgence sellers were preaching that (in fact, OUR works can justify OTHERS, they said) - Luther rejected that, the Catholic Church dogmatized it and excommunicated Protestants for not going along with it - pushing out one third of Christians over THIS issue... NOT the issue of Sanctification, NOT the issue of Christian living, NOT the issue of responses to faith, NOT the issue of how faith is busy in love.... the RCC could not disagree with Protestants on this because as all sides knew, there was no disagreement on that. None. Not at all.



1 Corinthians 13:13


Again, TRY my friend to stay on topic....

NO ONE disagrees with this. NO Christian (well, I don't think a Buddhist would, either). But Paul is writing to the JUSTIFIED, to CHRISTIANS, to those WITH FAITH..... he is not addressing dead, unjustified, faithless pagans who NEED to becpme Justified. The issue of 1 Corinthians 13:13 was NEVER an issue in the Reformation (or since) because there was and is no disagreement on it. Which is why your denomination went to such GREAT lengths to stress the dispute with Protestants was not about discipleship, not about our love - it's about JUSTIFICATION, where the RCC insisted Protestants are terrible heretics for holding that we contribute nothing to our Justification, that we are not Justified by our works but Jesus' works.




.
 
Last edited:

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
NOTICE TO PROTESTANTS..... just a "heads up"


As a former Catholic ..... now a convert to Protestantism.... this took me awhile to "get" but it's critical to understanding.


In the Bible, the same word CAN have different meanings depending on the context. One of those words is "grace." In SANCTIFICATION (when the context is Christian living, Christian discipleship, the Christian response), the word often means "God's empowering strength." Protestants use the word in this context too (albeit rarely). But in Justification, it means God's gift, blessings. Catholics use the word in this context too (very rarely and almost always in the issue of baptism). But Catholics often use the Sanctification meaning when discussing Justification.


When I was a nice Catholic boy, I was taught that THIS is the meaning of "grace" in the context of Justification (I think this is verbatim): "Grace is like spiritual 'gas' that God puts in your tank so that YOU can get YOURSELF where God wants you to be." Let that soak in.... ponder that.....


In discussions about Justification, you will find Catholics who will tell some Protestant, "Catholics believe that we are saved by God's grace." It SOUNDS like they are agreeing with Protestants (and apologizing for excommunicating Luther, lol) but what are they actually saying? Is the same as Protestantism or the antithesis of it? Now combine that with all the other things we Catholics were taught: "God helps those who help themselves." "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but its up to you to get yourself through it by God's help." Even the comment of one of our RCIA leaders: "Jesus technically saves no one but makes it possible for all to be saved." So, is Jesus the Savior or rather a Helper or Possibility Maker or Offerer? It took me awhile to "get" this (actually, after I left Catholicism did this begin to dawn on me....and the Reformation actually begin to come into focus and make sense). Consider what our friend and brother MoreCoffee wrote in post 472 "Catholics believe that the faithful are saved by God’s grace. Christians do nothing, apart from God’s grace, that contributes to their salvation. Catholics also believe that the faithful need to respond to God’s grace." Also see his entire thread, "the works of grace" (and note, it's all about what WE do).


Although in violation of classic Catholicism, in violation of the Council of Orange and SO much more (as Luther noted to the ANGER of the RCC), that denomination has embraced synergism and semi-Pelagianism to the extent that it's now in the "DNA" of Catholic theology. Actually, Catholicism is very muddy, fuzzy, unclear on this topic (the topic where one should be most clear!!!) - since the RCC over the centuries has stated every possible position there is on Justification, since EVERY position (including Luthers) can be found, there is the underlining view that JUSTIFICATION is a synergist, cooperative effort where God empowers and self acts - and together, one comes to life. They will defend this biblically by quoting verses on Sanctification and apply them to Justification. Protestants need to ask themselves: Thus, is Jesus the Savior? Or is He only a helper or possibility-maker or offerer..... it is "the free gift of God lest any can boast" as the Bible says or actually something we did for yourself (albeit entirely by God's empowring)..... is the point God's GIFT or our ACCOMPLISHMENT? Is it God's blessing or our adequate tapping of God's power that result in our justification?


It may SEEM like a minor point.... but actually all of Chritianity hinges on this point: Is Jesus the Savior or not? If salvation is simply a result of self using God's strength to be good enough, then Judaism, Islam, Bhakti Hinduism are just as valid as Christianity, indeed Christianity is just one variation on the same theme: We gotta save ourselves (and God helps us do that). Catholicism realized how this is a CRITICAL point - and excommunicated Luther (and others) on one point: they taught that it's Jesus who saves. Everyone always totally agreed that once Justified (enlived, etc.) we ARE to respond with our good works of love and obedience (that was NEVER, EVER an issue) but that's not what the Catholic Church so passionately rejected (the RCC fully agreed with Protestant on this) , the issue (as the RCC stresseb) was Justification. And of course, the entire Reformation was about this point, so insisted the RCC.


Sometimes Catholics ARE agreeing with Protestants (in which case, a full Papal apology for the Reformation is in order and we'd find them AGREEING with Protestants on this instead of the pages and pages and pages of arguments and rebukes on this) but often we SOUND more alike than we actually are.




- Josiah



.
 
Last edited:

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
You can never do enough, Arsenios...
You WILL ... die ...

Deu 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God
with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy might.


Your argument is not with me...

Arsenios
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Deu 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God
with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy might.


Your argument is not with me...

Arsenios


The verse does not say, "and thus you need no Savior, no Justification - cause you got you babe."


Yeah, you have a point: the Law calls us to many things - to be as perfect as God is, as holy as God is, as loving as God is, and YES if you perfectly are (in thought, word and deed.... in what is done and undone.... from the moment of conception to the moment of death) then I agree - there would be no need for grace, for mercy, for forgiveness, for the Savior, for Justification cuz we'd have sinless, perfect, holy, divine self. Trouble is, the Bible is right - there is no one who is righteous as the Law demand, no not one. As Jesus said, there is no one who is good (in this absolute sense) but God alone. NO ONE always totally hits the mark, we all miss the mark of the Law (the definition of being sinful) and the Bible is right, "if anyone claims to be without sin, he is a liar and deceives only himself." You are looking to self and to the Law for salvation.... and the message of Christianity is that it's not found there. It's the distinctive mark of Christianity, what separates Christianity from other religions.

That doesn't mean that perfect righteousness, holiness, love from conception to death in though, word and deed doesn't matter - only that that doesn't justify. Indeed, even God pleasing progress in that can only FOLLOW justification.... only those with faith can be faithful.



Josiah





.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Catholicism is very muddy, fuzzy, unclear on this topic

The Eastern Orthodox Catholic Faith suffers no such unclarity...

God wants us to totally expend ourselves for the sake of His Kingdom...

This expenditure does not earn earn God's Salvation...

The Gift of Salvation is God's Giving Himself...

For which cause He caused to be written:

Thou shalt love the LORD thy God
with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy might.


God cannot be earned...

Creation cannot EARN it's Creator...

Yet He does not abide our unfaithfulness...

For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God...

IF you are not fully consecrated for Christ's Sake...

You will distance yourself from God...

Arsenios
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
This expenditure does not earn earn God's Salvation...


Thanks for that powerful PROTESTANT proclamation (we were kicked out of the RCC for saying that).



.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Deu 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God
with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy might.


Your argument is not with me...

Arsenios

You underline the wrong word. The correct word to underline is the word "all."
You cannot love the Lord with "all" your heart, mind and soul. You missed the mark. You are dead in your trespasses and sins.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
You underline the wrong word. The correct word to underline is the word "all."
You cannot love the Lord with "all" your heart, mind and soul. You missed the mark. You are dead in your trespasses and sins.


The Law is the "mark" - and we are told that EVERYONE misses the mark (and thus, by biblical definition, are sinful and unclean). The Law does not provide salvation, it condemns us for who we are and reveals that what we desperately need is the SAVIOR.



.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom