Justification - Part 2

[MoreCoffee]

Then we agree. God saved us by His mercy so we could do the good things He prepared for us to do.

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Yes, that is about right; I am not confident that other protestants in CH agree with your formulation. I also think that it God saves rather than saved. But from God's perspective "saved" is as good as "saves" since he knows the end from the beginning.

 

[RichWh1]

Yes, that is about right; I am not confident that other protestants in CH agree with your formulation. I also think that it God saves rather than saved. But from God's perspective "saved" is as good as "saves" since he knows the end from the beginning.

There are actually three tenses of salvation. I have a paper I did on the topic.
I could post it as a new thread.



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[Josiah]

The passage says

1 You were dead, through the faults and sins. 2 Once, you lived through them, according to this world, and followed the Sovereign Ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires. By ourselves, we went straight to the judgement, like the rest of humankind.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, revealed his immense love. 5 As we were dead through our sins, he gave us life, with Christ. By grace, you have been saved! 6 And he raised us to life, with Christ, giving us a place with him in heaven.

7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.​

I'll try again....


IF you accept these words of Scripture, why is the position in post 213 horrible heresy? WHAT precisely in it is such condemnable heresy? Could you copy/paste it - and perhaps in some manner clearly indicate the sentances that make it all heresy? What the RCC split the western church over?



.

 

[Arsenios]

The holy scriptures say a man is justified by works and not by faith alone and that is said after a lengthy discussion about why faith that does no works is dead. The truth is that faith without works is dead, it does not really exist as the kind of faith that saint Paul discusses in his letters.

It also says a man is justified apart from works! Which is correct?

Both are correct...

There exist the works of the Law of Moses - These works do not justify us...

There also exist the works of the Faith Christ discipled to His disciples, beginning with and never abandoning repentance...
It is these works of faith that bring Christ's Justification to us... Christ Justifies us through our works of the Faith He discipled to His Disciples... These are the works of obedience to Christ, just as Christ was obedient to His Father, so also are we obedient to Christ Who is our Father...

Our obedience to the Gospel of Christ are the works through which Christ Justifies us...

No rocket science here...

Do Christ's works and be Saved by Christ...

Don't do His works and you won't be Saved by Christ...

This is the call to Salvation:
"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

Obey and be saved...

Disobey and be lost...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

However faith produces good works.

And without those good works, that faith is dead...


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

And without those good works, that faith is dead...


Arsenios

Exactly!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Both are correct...

There exist the works of the Law of Moses - These works do not justify us...

There also exist the works of the Faith Christ discipled to His disciples, beginning with and never abandoning repentance...
It is these works of faith that bring Christ's Justification to us... Christ Justifies us through our works of the Faith He discipled to His Disciples... These are the works of obedience to Christ, just as Christ was obedient to His Father, so also are we obedient to Christ Who is our Father...

Our obedience to the Gospel of Christ are the works through which Christ Justifies us...

No rocket science here...

Do Christ's works and be Saved by Christ...

Don't do His works and you won't be Saved by Christ...

This is the call to Salvation:
"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

Obey and be saved...

Disobey and be lost...

Arsenios

I do not know what alchemy is at work but somehow when you or I write "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" some read it as saying "a man is justified by works alone apart from faith" and when you or I say "the just shall live by faith" it is transmuted into "those who work for their salvation shall live by their beliefs". Yet we are quoting holy scripture and when some of our interlocutors quote the same passages they are transmuted into "a man is justified by faith alone and good works follow" and "the faithful shall be just by their faith alone". It is a magic beyond the comprehension of the faithful.

 

[Arsenios]

I do not know what alchemy is at work but somehow when you or I write "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" some read it as saying "a man is justified by works alone apart from faith" and when you or I say "the just shall live by faith" it is transmuted into "those who work for their salvation shall live by their beliefs". Yet we are quoting holy scripture and when some of our interlocutors quote the same passages they are transmuted into "a man is justified by faith alone and good works follow" and "the faithful shall be just by their faith alone". It is a magic beyond the comprehension of the faithful.

As night follows day, and day night...

Plain meaning of Scripture is twisted into a talking point...

I was accused of taking a Scripture out of context, the whole of the passage was then copied and pasted, and then back to the talking points without explaining a contrary understanding of the words cited by means of this so-called "overlooked context"... That has happened fairly regularly...

Peter's Epistle warns of the difficulty of Paul's Epistles, and how some interpret them to their destruction... So that when some difficulty should arise, one should then go to the Ekklesia for interpretation, and especially, in this regard, to the master of Pauline interpretation, John Chrysostom, readily available online, one of the emerging writers coming out of the persecutions of the Church the first several hundred years... Instead, the moral outrage argument wins over the factual one... At least for many...

I am glad they are not in charge...

I am glad I am not in charge...

Such gladness proves the existence of God!

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

just because

 

[MennoSota]

I do not know what alchemy is at work but somehow when you or I write "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" some read it as saying "a man is justified by works alone apart from faith" and when you or I say "the just shall live by faith" it is transmuted into "those who work for their salvation shall live by their beliefs". Yet we are quoting holy scripture and when some of our interlocutors quote the same passages they are transmuted into "a man is justified by faith alone and good works follow" and "the faithful shall be just by their faith alone". It is a magic beyond the comprehension of the faithful.

The problem simply lies with the fact that you add to grace and thus eliminate grace.
Both you and Arsenios will present this process:
1) God graciously gives faith.
2) God's gift of faith fuels works.
3) Works are the outcome of faith.
But then...you destroy all of the above by stating:
4) If you don't keep doing good works, you will lose your salvation and God will reject you.
Thus, grace is replaced with human works as the means of being saved.
It is because of the addition that I correctly label you and Arsenios as Judaisers whom Paul condemned.
When you and Arsenios abandon the notion that your works determine your eternal destination we will very likely agree. Can you both abandon #4?

 

[RichWh1]

The problem simply lies with the fact that you add to grace and thus eliminate grace.
Both you and Arsenios will present this process:
1) God graciously gives faith.
2) God's gift of faith fuels works.
3) Works are the outcome of faith.
But then...you destroy all of the above by stating:
4) If you don't keep doing good works, you will lose your salvation and God will reject you.
Thus, grace is replaced with human works as the means of being saved.
It is because of the addition that I correctly label you and Arsenios as Judaisers whom Paul condemned.
When you and Arsenios abandon the notion that your works determine your eternal destination we will very likely agree. Can you both abandon #4?

I don’t think anyone mentioned #4
Either you obey unto salvation or you disobey unto destruction

Let me clarify: Repent and be saved or do not repent and remain lost
There is no ‘loss of salvation’



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[MennoSota]

I don’t think anyone mentioned #4
Either you obey unto salvation or you disobey unto destruction

Let me clarify: Repent and be saved or do not repent and remain lost
There is no ‘loss of salvation’



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Let me clarify:
Be chosen by God, which leads to repentance. Or don't be chosen by God, which means you continue in rebellion.
Spiritually dead men cannot repent, which is what Josiah has correctly pointed out.
The Bible tells us that no one seeks God, not even one. Thus, there is no conceivable way by which a human can repent unto salvation. No human will seek God. All humans, starting with Adam and Eve, will hide from God until God calls them out by name.
Those who are chosen will never be unchosen. They did not earn God's favor to begin with and they cannot unearn God's favor to be unchosen. God says he will never leave us nor forsake us.
We must stop this insane attempt to put the burden of our sonship upon our own actions. God is 100% involved in our position before Him. We have a 0% say in the matter.

 

[RichWh1]

Let me clarify:
Be chosen by God, which leads to repentance. Or don't be chosen by God, which means you continue in rebellion.
Spiritually dead men cannot repent, which is what Josiah has correctly pointed out.
The Bible tells us that no one seeks God, not even one. Thus, there is no conceivable way by which a human can repent unto salvation. No human will seek God. All humans, starting with Adam and Eve, will hide from God until God calls them out by name.
Those who are chosen will never be unchosen. They did not earn God's favor to begin with and they cannot unearn God's favor to be unchosen. God says he will never leave us nor forsake us.
We must stop this insane attempt to put the burden of our sonship upon our own actions. God is 100% involved in our position before Him. We have a 0% say in the matter.

If that is true then explain John 3 and what Jesus meant by those words.
BTW we are discussing justification and you are bringing up election

 

[Arsenios]

The problem simply lies with the fact that you add to grace and thus eliminate grace.
Both you and Arsenios will present this process:
1) God graciously gives faith.
2) God's gift of faith fuels works.
3) Works are the outcome of faith.
But then...you destroy all of the above by stating:
4) If you don't keep doing good works, you will lose your salvation and God will reject you.
Thus, grace is replaced with human works as the means of being saved.
It is because of the addition that I correctly label you and Arsenios as Judaisers whom Paul condemned.
When you and Arsenios abandon the notion that your works determine your eternal destination we will very likely agree. Can you both abandon #4?

That is pretty much how I understand you, Menno...

Thank-you...

From the Orthodox perspective, you exclude human obedience to the Call of the Gospel as a factor in Salvation...

For us, some obey, some do not...

Some are saved, and some are not...

Obedience to the Gospel Command to be repenting is a human work...

Salvation is a Work of God...

Your claim that our human obedience to Christ's Gospel is NOT a human work but is a Work of God having nothing to do with our human choice is the claim we reject... Adam fell by disobedience, and those to be saved will be chosen by God on the basis of NOT being disobedient...

In this fallen world, we choose good and evil all the time, and on the basis of our choices, and especially obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God will judge us by our actions, which are works... "Be ye repenting..." is the Gospel Command... It is given because we CAN be repenting... God does NOT repent FOR us... But He graciously works WITH us in our decision to live a repentant life... Or not to live that life... In this sense, we are 100% responsible for our Salvation, yet God is 100% alone the Giver of our Salvation... Because God is Just... And NOT because we EARN it... Nothing can earn God...

And what you do with this is say: "Well then, YOU have just usurped God's Gift of Salvation, given for free, because you ADD your repentance to HIS Grace!" And I sigh... Repentance is but the ASKING of God for His Grace of Salvation...

And the merry-go-round just goes merrily around and around...

The way out is to look to the Historical Church to find the ancient and current teachings...

But to this, you insist on Bible Verses Only...
And when I give them, you accuse me of twisting them,
and we are back on the merry-go-round, with louder music...

Thanks for chiming in...

Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

That is pretty much how I understand you, Menno...

Thank-you...

From the Orthodox perspective, you exclude human obedience to the Call of the Gospel as a factor in Salvation...

For us, some obey, some do not...

Some are saved, and some are not...

Obedience to the Gospel Command to be repenting is a human work...

Salvation is a Work of God...

Your claim that our human obedience to Christ's Gospel is NOT a human work but is a Work of God having nothing to do with our human choice is the claim we reject... Adam fell by disobedience, and those to be saved will be chosen by God on the basis of NOT being disobedient...

In this fallen world, we choose good and evil all the time, and on the basis of our choices, and especially obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God will judge us by our actions, which are works... "Be ye repenting..." is the Gospel Command... It is given because we CAN be repenting... God does NOt repent FOR us... But He graciously works WITH us in our decision to live a repentant life... In this sense, we are 100% responsible for our Salvation, yet God is 100% alone the Giver of our Salvation... Because God is Just... And NOT because we EARN it... Nothing can earn God...

And what you do with this is say: "Well then, YOU have just usurped God's Gift of Salvation given for free because you ADD your repentance to HIS Grace!" And I sigh... Repentance is ASKING God for His Grace of Salvation...

And the merry-go-round just goes merrily aroune and around...

The way out is to look to the Historical Church to find the ancient and current teachings... But to this, you insist on Bible Verses Only... And when I give them, you accuse me of twisting them, and we are back on the merry-go-round, with louder music...

Thanks for chiming in...

Arsenios

Absolutely right my friend

 

[MoreCoffee]

If that is true then explain John 3 and what Jesus meant by those words.
BTW we are discussing justification and you are bringing up election

I think that way it works for MennoSota is that he thinks his salvation is inextricably linked to his assurance of salvation and that means he is Justified by faith alone because he is elect. And he is elect because of God's inscrutable predestining will which is revealed in a general-sort-of-way but is also hidden in God and no one will know what election was about without God giving further revelation about it - presumably after the last judgement and the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Sorry for being so long winded :=-0:

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don’t think anyone mentioned #4
Either you obey unto salvation or you disobey unto destruction

Let me clarify: Repent and be saved or do not repent and remain lost
There is no ‘loss of salvation’

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It is significant that "repent and believe the gospel" involves two things that continue throughout earthly life. Repenting lasts as long as one has something to repent about and believing lasts as long as belief (without sight because seeing is knowing rather than believing according to saint Paul) in what is not seen is needed but when belief turns into sight then we no longer believe we know and when sins cease we no longer repent we do good and only good by the grace of God and the life of Christ within us.

 

[psalms 91]

It is significant that "repent and believe the gospel" involves two things that continue throughout earthly life. Repenting lasts as long as one has something to repent about and believing lasts as long as belief (without sight because seeing is knowing rather than believing according to saint Paul) in what is not seen is needed but when belief turns into sight then we no longer believe we know and when sins cease we no longer repent we do good and only good by the grace of God and the life of Christ within us.

Does not 1 John tell us that we sin daily? 1 John 1: 9-10, it also tells us we have an advocate for sin

 

[MoreCoffee]

Does not 1 John tell us that we sin daily? 1 John 1: 9-10, it also tells us we have an advocate for sin

I suspect that everybody I know does sin every day, maybe every hour, perhaps ever minute ... but maybe not every second. Is it a sin to sleep? I hope not!

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I think that way it works for MennoSota is that he thinks his salvation is inextricably linked to his assurance of salvation and that means he is Justified by faith alone because he is elect. And he is elect because of God's inscrutable predestining will which is revealed in a general-sort-of-way but is also hidden in God and no one will know what election was about without God giving further revelation about it - presumably after the last judgement and the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Sorry for being so long winded :=-0:

That does sum it up nicely, though. And "faith without works is dead" is the 'toughie'? :dunno: