Justification - Part 2

[Andrew]

.

Sorry I do realize this was not Jesus Christ but another Named Jesus but Justus to distinguish him from Jesus... my bad

 

[RichWh1]

I included the context last time I quoted the passages so I believed you'd remember it since I did. But to help with the discussion I'll include the context again.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. 15 If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, 16 and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? 17 So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead.

18 Say to whoever challenges you, “You have faith and I have good deeds; show me your faith apart from actions and I, for my part, will show you my faith in the way I act.” 19 Do you believe there is one God? Well enough, but do not forget, that the demons, also, believe, and tremble with fear!

20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God.

24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave.

26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​

The passage still says that Abraham was justified by works. Of course I do not claim that anybody is justified by works alone, that would be too much like the protestant insistence that people are justified by faith alone. Faith alone is dead, works alone are as dead. No point in playing with theology that is about what is dead. As James writes, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Two "sides" of the coin, faith and works are necessary, no one is justified without both.

This verse was one of the reasons the Book of James was not added to the Canon until much later.
Because in Romans 4 Paul writes that Abraham was not justified by works.
James writes that he is justified by them.

Faith produces works. Without faith works is dead. Without works faith is dead.

So let’s agree that faith with works justify us



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

This verse was one of the reasons the Book of James was not added to the Canon until much later.
Because in Romans 4 Paul writes that Abraham was not justified by works.
James writes that he is justified by them.

Faith produces works. Without faith works is dead. Without works faith is dead.

So let’s agree that faith with works justify us



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As long as it's not "works with faith." Can't be putting the cart before the horse.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This verse was one of the reasons the Book of James was not added to the Canon until much later.
Because in Romans 4 Paul writes that Abraham was not justified by works.
James writes that he is justified by them.

Faith produces works. Without faith works is dead. Without works faith is dead.

So let’s agree that faith with works justify us



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The letter of saint James was in the canon for more than a thousand years before Martin Luther was born. It was Martin Luther who disliked the letter because it says So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

The Epistle was first explicitly referred to and quoted by Origen of Alexandria, and possibly a bit earlier by Irenaeus of Lyons as well as Clement of Alexandria in a lost work according to Eusebius, although it was not mentioned by Tertullian, who was writing at the end of the Second Century. It is also absent from the Muratorian fragment, the earliest known list of New Testament books.

The Epistle of James was included among the twenty-seven New Testament books first listed by Athanasius of Alexandria in his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle (AD 367) and was confirmed as a canonical epistle of the New Testament by a series of councils in the Fourth Century. Today, virtually all denominations of Christianity consider this book to be a canonical epistle of the New Testament.

In the first centuries of the Church the authenticity of the Epistle was doubted by some, including Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia in Cilicia. Because of the silence of several of the western churches regarding it, Eusebius classes it among the Antilegomena or contested writings (Historia ecclesiae, 3.25; 2.23). Jerome gives a similar appraisal but adds that with time it had been universally admitted. Gaius Marius Victorinus, in his commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians, openly questioned whether the teachings of James were heretical.

Its late recognition in the Church, especially in the West, may be explained by the fact that it was written for or by Jewish Christians, and therefore not widely circulated among the Gentile Churches. There is some indication that a few groups distrusted the book because of its doctrine. In Reformation times a few theologians, most notably Martin Luther in his early career, argued that this epistle should not be part of the canonical New Testament.

Martin Luther's description of the Epistle of James changes. In some cases, Luther argues that it was not written by an apostle; but in other cases, he describes James as the work of an apostle. He even cites it as authoritative teaching from God and describes James as "a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God." Lutherans hold that the Epistle is rightly part of the New Testament, citing its authority in the Book of Concord, however it remains part of the Lutheran antilegomena.​

 

[RichWh1]

As long as it's not "works with faith." Can't be putting the cart before the horse.

Alright. How about ‘works proceeding faith’?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RichWh1]

MoreCoffee

This has nothing to do with Martin Luther!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

Alright. How about ‘works proceeding faith’?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As long as we recognize that faith is the fuel that energizes the action (works).

 

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee

This has nothing to do with Martin Luther!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The thread is about Justification and it was Martin Luther who decided that "the just shall live by faith alone". Even the "reformation" catch cry "sola fide" is inspired by Martin Luther's steadfast rejection of what saint James says in his letter; specifically, that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". So this is about Martin Luther and the idea that the letter of saint James is questionable in canonical authority is something that Martin Luther raised. The fundamental truth is that the new testament canon includes the letter of James and has done for at least 1,700 years and very likely always has.

 

[RichWh1]

As long as we recognize that faith is the fuel that energizes the action (works).

Why not? Faith is the source and faith produces works. Read Ephesians 2:8-10.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RichWh1]

The thread is about Justification and it was Martin Luther who decided that "the just shall live by faith alone". Even the "reformation" catch cry "sola fide" is inspired by Martin Luther's steadfast rejection of what saint James says in his letter; specifically, that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". So this is about Martin Luther and the idea that the letter of saint James is questionable in canonical authority is something that Martin Luther raised. The fundamental truth is that the new testament canon includes the letter of James and has done for at least 1,700 years and very likely always has.

Justification yes! Reformation No! Luther didn’t say this! Scripture says it!






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

Justification yes! Reformation No! Luther didn’t say this! Scripture says it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The holy scriptures say a man is justified by works and not by faith alone and that is said after a lengthy discussion about why faith that does no works is dead. The truth is that faith without works is dead, it does not really exist as the kind of faith that saint Paul discusses in his letters.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why not? Faith is the source and faith produces works. Read Ephesians 2:8-10.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is not faith that produces works it is grace that produces both faith and works and it is by grace that the faithful are saved.

 

[RichWh1]

The holy scriptures say a man is justified by works and not by faith alone and that is said after a lengthy discussion about why faith that does no works is dead. The truth is that faith without works is dead, it does not really exist as the kind of faith that saint Paul discusses in his letters.

It also says a man is justified apart from works! Which is correct?
Romans 3 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Romans 3:23-24,27


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RichWh1]

It is not faith that produces works it is grace that produces both faith and works and it is by grace that the faithful are saved.

Grace through faith, yes. That saves us. Works follow this.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Josiah]

Grace through faith, yes. That saves us. Works follow this.

BEWARE, my new friend!


Sometimes folks use identical words to mean different things (even exact opposite things). I'm not rebuking that (the Bible itself at times does this - context telling us which meaning is meant). But it CAN lead to misunderstandings in these discussions.

A Catholic has essentially conveyed that we are saved by grace. Some will even say we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. And a Protestant might read that and think, "We have some excellent agreement here!" Well.... maybe. You need to ask what they MEAN by these words.

Take that word "grace" for example. IN THE CONTEXT OF JUSTIFICATION (narrow), Protestants are apt to define "grace" as God's undeserved favor and free gifts, His blessings simply betowed because God is love and God is merciful. Catholics are apt to define it in this context as "God's empowering." Or as we Catholics were taught, "Grace is the "gas" that God puts in your "tank" so that YOU can get YOURSELF where YOU need to be." And it was explained, "We are saved if WE adequately use the grace we are given to get ourselves where we are to be." Do you see the difference? Do you see how it radically changes what is meant by "we are saved by grace?" Now in fairness to these Catholics, "grace" CAN have that Catholic meaning, but of course in Sanctification (not Justification, narrow). By applying that meaning to Justification, self thus becomes the Savior (not Jesus) and the dead atheist becomes the Lord and Giver of Life (not the Holy Spirit). God simply puts gas in our tanks - which in and of itself does nothing (except put gas in your tank). Christ thus is simply the possibility-maker and empowering - inert energy. Thus our Catholic teacher who stated, "Jesus technically saves no one, He makes it possible for each person to save themselves." (Let that soak in) And also the common saying, "God HELPS those who help themselves." The distniction here is important as we look at why the RCC was SO profoundly, foundationally HORRIFIED by the Protestant position (See post 213)


I hope that helps.


- Josiah (the former Catholic)



.

 

[MennoSota]

Why not? Faith is the source and faith produces works. Read Ephesians 2:8-10.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

God is the gracious giver of faith. Faith is the fuel. Works is the engine that moves. Without the giver of faith, there are no works.
That's Ephesians 2:8-10.

 

[RichWh1]

God is the gracious giver of faith. Faith is the fuel. Works is the engine that moves. Without the giver of faith, there are no works.
That's Ephesians 2:8-10.

God is the Author of salvation and I never denied that!
Works before salvation are filthy rags. It’s only after one is saved that his works count as something.
Works alone produce nothing.
However faith produces good works.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

God is the Author of salvation and I never denied that!
Works before salvation are filthy rags. It’s only after one is saved that his works count as something.
Works alone produce nothing.
However faith produces good works.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Which is exactly what I have been saying the whole time.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Grace through faith, yes. That saves us. Works follow this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The passage says

1 You were dead, through the faults and sins. 2 Once, you lived through them, according to this world, and followed the Sovereign Ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires. By ourselves, we went straight to the judgement, like the rest of humankind.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, revealed his immense love. 5 As we were dead through our sins, he gave us life, with Christ. By grace, you have been saved! 6 And he raised us to life, with Christ, giving us a place with him in heaven.

7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.​

 

[RichWh1]

The passage says

1 You were dead, through the faults and sins. 2 Once, you lived through them, according to this world, and followed the Sovereign Ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires. By ourselves, we went straight to the judgement, like the rest of humankind.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, revealed his immense love. 5 As we were dead through our sins, he gave us life, with Christ. By grace, you have been saved! 6 And he raised us to life, with Christ, giving us a place with him in heaven.

7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.​

Then we agree. God saved us by His mercy so we could do the good things He prepared for us to do.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk