Justification - Part 2

[MoreCoffee]

That is only one side of the coin. You need to look at both sides.

Paul quotes Isaiah after he says “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 4:2-5

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A coin without two sides and an edge cannot exist. Faith without works cannot exist. It's necessary for faith to work in love. That is why saint James states that a man is justified (made righteous) by works and not by faith alone.

 

[MennoSota]

Im sorry Menno, just having a mourning day over a passing, I dont mean to take offense and I admit that what I said wasnt fair to you. Im just feeling very sensitive i guess, everything is upside down at the moment I just have a hard time dealing with loss. Take care, again my apologies

Grieving is very hard. I will pray for you as God works his healing. Be at peace.

 

[RichWh1]

A coin without two sides and an edge cannot exist. Faith without works cannot exist. It's necessary for faith to work in love. That is why saint James states that a man is justified (made righteous) by works and not by faith alone.

Exactly! That’s what I have been saying! Faith produces works, yes. Our faith justifies us to do those works as Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-10 v 10 being the verse dealing with works.

Faith without works is dead so if someone says they have faith yet their life doesn’t show it, that is a sign that they are not saved.


As Paul wrote in Romans 4 “if Abraham was justified by his works he has something to boast about “ We cannot boast about our salvation because it is not of works!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Josiah]

Exactly! That’s what I have been saying! Faith produces works, yes. Our faith justifies us to do those works as Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-10 v 10 being the verse dealing with works.

Faith without works is dead so if someone says they have faith yet their life doesn’t show it, that is a sign that they are not saved.


As Paul wrote in Romans 4 “if Abraham was justified by his works he has something to boast about “ We cannot boast about our salvation because it is not of works!
k

MC often shares the Protestant view - often in the verbatim words Protestants do and quoting the same verses. But the Protestant view is horrible heresy, condemnable and to be anathematized. He has echoed the position of post 213 while ridiculing and condemning and mocking it - and refusing to say precisely WHAT in it is "horrible heresy" We normally just get ENDLESS diversions and evasions.


Welcome to the discussion, my new friend. I've been having this with our Catholic brothers and sisters for many years now - always the same. If the Catholic actually considers this kinda important.... and IF they will engage.... I've found that nearly always we have a Lutheran among us (who then disagrees with his denomination that it's horrible, condemnable heresy). Amazing how Protestant a lot of Catholics are on this! But others just stick to the "party line" that it MUST be horrible stuff because the RCC made the point of the big split it did in 1521 an officially anathematize it.... they just can't figure out what's wrong with it and thus dodge the issue. Don't get discouraged. Continue to lift high the Cross (rather than the mirror).... continue to hold that Jesus is the Savior (not self) and that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life. And reject anything that denies that. And know..... Catholics get the Scriptures via the Liturgy and Lectionary and hymns (a lot of them Protestant) IF not in the sermon or classes.... their sacraments are valid.... and His Word does not return to Him void. Some Catholics just insist it MUST be heresy if their denomination says so - and it doesn't matter how or why or where, it just IS. But you'll find, they often believe what is condemned.



.

 

[Arsenios]

Repentance is NOT the "first step" in justification

Never said it was -

But the Bible says that Justification comes AFTER one's response to God's Call...

The first step is the Call of God unto repentance...

"Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

THEN, IF you obey this command, God enters you into His Kingdom...

Obedience to the King is where the Kingdom IS...

Justification comes when the repenting penitent is baptized INTO Christ...

That is entry into Christ, the "Promised Land"...

Then come the Goliaths within the Promised Land...

They must be overcome in order that one attain the final step:

Whom God hath Justified, these also He hath Glorified...

Glorification is the full Salvation of Christ on earth...

Your repentance earns you nothing...

Obedience is only what is owed...

God's decision is all that matters...

But by now you are, I feel, far, far away from these words...

Farewell - Pray for me!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

1) Only God justifies. --- Correct
2) thru The Faith of Christ (I assume not us) --- Correct
3) Which disciples repentance (repentance comes after justification and faith) --- Correct

You are now thoroughly Reformed and have attributed all glory to God. Bless you!

Repentance unto Justification by God???

You agree with us???

What a beautiful day!

I corrected your typo - eg "comes after" where you were quoting me!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Being declared righteous IS being made righteous, or right with God.

I use the term RECTIFIED rather than justified...
To little avail -
Nobody else does, and they just go on as before...

Rectified as in MADE RIGHT with God...

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Repentance unto Justification by God???

You agree with us???

What a beautiful day!

I corrected your typo where you were quoting me!

Arsenios

Please do not alter a quoted post from another member, thank you. It is not allowed here.

 

[Arsenios]

I wonder if there is some guy doing time in prison and has nothing to read but the bible and believes he is justified because God chose him... he never repents because that it works, never gets baptised because that is works, shanks an inmate to death because he was a rival gang member, considers anything outside the bible as dogma and doesnt pray because thats works... Oh and he never says "Jesus Jesus" just in case he isnt heard...
He assumes that any good works God wills him is just a filthy rag and so this doesnt bother him.
According to your theology Menno, is this man a saint? A Son of God? Is going straight to heaven? Or could good works have actually justified him?
For we know the Apostles certainly lectured feverishly on the importance of walking with God in holiness, but since he had no reason to participate in works (which will not justify anyway, means nothing but filthy rags) he is Gods elect.

His approach does seem to have a gloomy and doomy declination about it!
"Nuttin' fer y'all t'be a-doin' now, heah?
It's ALL God so you don' do nuttin'!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

LONG ago, I shared the condemned Lutheran (and generally Protestant) view.
I went to a LOT of work to do that.....
passed it by two Lutheran pastors (both with doctorates in Theology)
to be sure it was totally accurate...
to share exactly what is the Lutheran (and generally Protestant) view on this....
admittedly the issue that fractured Western Christianity.

This is not how an Orthodox would resolve the issue...

And that would seem to be a good jumping off point: What in this view is agreed with and what is heresy. Why do Protestants embrace that and why does the RCC anathematize it. But no one (including you) would participate. Instead, we've gotten HUNDREDS of diversions - usually to things that have nothing to do with the topic here and were we generally agree (and where the CC has made a strong point of saying we agree) or to sidebar issues that MAY be perhaps loosely related but not the issue itself. I've found this is what ALWAYS happens with this: just cannot get a Catholic to discuss it. They just will not. "It's HERESY!!!" that's all you get, never ever willing to say WHAT is heresy or why. Catholics just will not do it. Protestants keep asking, Catholics just dodging.... until every Protestant gives up on this thread (and it all starts over again eventually in another thread). How many times has that happened here at CH? I've lost count.

So I am not surprised at the results for you...

Looks like you need a rethink...

Doing the same thing over and over looking for a different outcome...

Is not reccomended by many leading authorities!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We are Justified by God, through faith in the life, death, and resurrection of His Son. This "faith" is wholly a work of God in our hearts, which enables the sinner to "repent and believe". Further, we are enabled by the Holy Spirit to carry out the work of God in the world.

Woof Woof

Pass me a beer and the remote!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

According to James which came first?
Abraham’s faith or his works?
I would have to say that his faith came first
and his works followed.

Let James answer:

Jas 2:22
You are seeing how faith synergized with his works,
and by works his faith was made perfect?

Nobody seems to want to engage
the synergistic interworking
of faith and works
unto the perfecting of faith...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm ... just having a mourning day over a passing...

God Bless You Dear Brother...

Tears are a gentle rain softening the soul...

I am sorry for your loss...

Peace be with you here...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Please do not alter a quoted post from another member, thank you. It is not allowed here.

He altered mine...

I corrected it...

Or are we not permitted to correct another poster's alteration of one of our posts?

Was there a complaint?

Fixed it!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Repentance unto Justification by God???

You agree with us???

What a beautiful day!

I corrected your typo - eg "comes after" where you were quoting me!

Arsenios

Amazing how you contradict your self on this thread. You need to leave it at the earlier statement that is biblical instead of adding other stuff and ship wrecking grace.

 

[MennoSota]

He altered mine...

I corrected it...

Or are we not permitted to correct another poster's alteration of one of our posts?

Was there a complaint?

Fixed it!

Arsenios

I never altered your post. I expressed what you said, which is a Reformed position.
But, you must have recognized you were straying from the EO dogma and recanted.

 

[Josiah]

Never said it was -

I noted that MC did. You said it is the "preparation" for it.

The first step is the Call of God unto repentance...

I don't think so..... and if the "first step" is only an empty "call" with an inert God - and the Dead Atheist must adequately perform this GOOD WORK entirely void of faith, of spiritual life, of the Holy Spirit, of God - to one he denies exists for something he denies exists, so that THEN (as a result of this) God gets of his seat and starts doing something... then self is the savior of self, dead atheists give life to self. MY position is the Jesus is the Savior (not each Dead Atheist for himself) and that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life (not each Dead Atheist for himself). You seem to have ENORMOUS problems with that - but you agree with that but have enormous problems with that.

Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

Absolutely! Nothing about each Dead Atheist doing what they cannot and will not do with God being inert, uncaring, ungiving while each Dead Man gives HIMSELF faith and life (obviously, the Holy Spirit doesn 't do it and need not do it because every Dead Atheist can do it totally on his own, a good work done without God or faith and in denial that God even exists and in firm conviction that Jesus is either pure myth or an insane man.

THEN, IF you obey this command, God enters you into His Kingdom...

God never said that. And of course if that were true than Christianity is not true, Jesus is not the Savior, the Holy Spirit is not the Lord and Giver of Life (or anything else for that matter), and there's no "free gift" and no "inheritance." And every justified person has ONE and ONLY ONE to thank and praise - the one they see in the mirror. Even the soteriology of Islam and Hinduism is not so void of God, so full of pride.

Justification comes when the repenting penitent is baptized INTO Christ...

I was baptized within a minute of my emergency C-Section. Not breathing. Not conscience. And not performing any good work of repentance entirely void of God or God doing anything. But I was baptized into Christ. And I am repentant. And I was given life, faith, the Holy Spirit, justification (narrow).

Whom God hath Justified

.... not "each dead atheist who justifies himself"






.

 

[davedajobauk]

"Without the support of the Holy Spirit, the word is 'dead'..."
now, where did I hear that

I am afraid, that I see LITERAL INTERPRETATIONS of the bible becoming mentioned

It must be remembered, that the language (of those times) had first, to be accurately translated
to convey that Original Meaning _ We do not all hold a degree in Yiddish / Hebrew / Aramaic / Greek
and therefore we find ourselves INDIVIDUALLY endeavouring, to acquire MEANING, of the Printed Christian Bible


I would like to see less-sarcasm and more-encouragement (~to understanding)
We are, only human


God does nothing IMPERFECTLY \o/ :amen:

Faith is a virtue that leads us to insist, resist and persist in prayer; to never give up because we trust God's provision.
-Apostle Jairo Castillo


dave

 

[MoreCoffee]

Exactly! That’s what I have been saying! Faith produces works, yes. Our faith justifies us to do those works as Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-10 v 10 being the verse dealing with works.

Faith without works is dead so if someone says they have faith yet their life doesn’t show it, that is a sign that they are not saved.


As Paul wrote in Romans 4 “if Abraham was justified by his works he has something to boast about “ We cannot boast about our salvation because it is not of works!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Saint James writes that Abraham was justified by his works. James 2:21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar?

 

[MoreCoffee]

We are Justified by God, through faith in the life, death, and resurrection of His Son. This "faith" is wholly a work of God in our hearts, which enables the sinner to "repent and believe". Further, we are enabled by the Holy Spirit to carry out the work of God in the world.

Woof Woof

Remembering that faith and belief are both translations of Pistis in Greek what you've written amounts to saying "We are Justified by God, through belief in the life, death, and resurrection of His Son. This "belief" is wholly a work of God in our hearts, which enables the sinner to "repent and believe". Further, we are enabled by the Holy Spirit to carry out the work of God in the world." So belief enables sinners to believe and repent - but that is tautological is it not?