Justification - Part 2

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Andrew

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Jesus is the Savior (so we aren't). The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life (no we aren't). Justification is the free gift of God (so we don't give it to ourselves).
Will you add it to the justification list?
I really dont think we need another thread for it just asking tho :)
 

MennoSota

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Arsenios you neglect the entire passage.
Romans 5:1-11 come first. Why do you insist on missing the context?
5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
We continue through your one verse and see that Romans 5 is all about being justified by God's grace alone.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass[f] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[g] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Chapter 6, Paul will answer the complaints of some who thought the gospel of grace gave license to sin. In Chapter 7 Paul shares how the law condemns us. In Chapter 8 we read that in Christ there is no condemnation for we who are justified by Christ.
The entire Bible debunks the idea that our own works justify us.
 
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Andrew

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Arsenios you neglect the entire passage.
Romans 5:1-11 come first. Why do you insist on missing the context?
5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
We continue through your one verse and see that Romans 5 is all about being justified by God's grace alone.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass[f] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[g] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Chapter 6, Paul will answer the complaints of some who thought the gospel of grace gave license to sin. In Chapter 7 Paul shares how the law condemns us. In Chapter 8 we read that in Christ there is no condemnation for we who are justified by Christ.
The entire Bible debunks the idea that our own works justify us.
Can you summarise what you get out of chapter 6 with Paul?
 

Josiah

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LIST:

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Arsenios - We are Justified only by God through the Faith of Christ which disciples repentance
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Thanks, but it is not a sentence. IF you intended to post, "We are justified by God through the faith in Christ which manifest itself in repentance" then you fully agree with Lutherans and the position which the RCC anathematized as heresy (see post 213) and which you have ridicules in me endlessly.
 

Josiah

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Will you add it to the justification list?
I really dont think we need another thread for it just asking tho :)


Lost me, friend. What I stated is my position. The ONLY position I've had for hundreds of posts in this thread. And MC and Arsenios have been rebuking and rejecting. And the RCC for 500 years have been repudiating and anthematizing as heresy. See post 213.
 

Andrew

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Lost me, friend. What I stated is my position. The ONLY position I've had for hundreds of posts in this thread. And MC and Arsenios have been rebuking and rejecting. And the RCC for 500 years have been repudiating and anthematizing as heresy. See post 213.
I know, im just OCD and wanted a list... dont make me start screaming :) lol
 

MennoSota

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Can you summarise what you get out of chapter 6 with Paul?
Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound? May it never be!
 

MennoSota

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6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Sooooo.... 151 pages. Are we Justified yet?
 

Arsenios

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LIST:
DHoffmann - We are justified by faith through grace and not by righteous deeds alone
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Arsenios - We are Justified only by God through the Faith of Christ which disciples repentance
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Is everyone turning into a bunch of sissies on your request?

What's with this?

I am embrassed FOR them...

Arsenios
 

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Will you add it to the justification list?
I really dont think we need another thread for it just asking tho :)

Naaaagggghhhhh!!!!!!!

Wimps, I say!
No sand in their scrawny craws!
They are all running from your list!

This is too funny!

C'mon you guys - Do a sentence!

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
We are Justified only by God through the Faith of Christ which disciples repentance

Thanks, but it is not a sentence.

Here, let me help you:

We are Justified only by God,
through the Faith of Christ,
which (Faith) disciples repentance...


Better now? (Hint: "disciples" is a verb)

IF you intended to post, "We are justified by God through the faith in Christ which manifest itself in repentance" then you fully agree with Lutherans and the position which the RCC anathematized as heresy (see post 213) and which you have ridicules in me endlessly.

IF...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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It is an arduous work to be justified. :scared:

God works up this horrific sweat every time He Justifies someone!

Needs 3 showers just to wash it all off...

A regular MMA workout, I say!

Takes Him a long time...

151 posts ain't nearly 'nuff time 'n' effort!

Arsenios :):):)
 
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MoreCoffee

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God works up this horrific sweat every time He Justifies someone!

Needs 3 showers just to wash it all off...

A regular MMA workout, I say!

Takes Him a long time...

151 posts ain't nearly 'nuff time 'n' effort!

Arsenios :):):)

total so far is 1,500+ and still very limited progress. Maybe it takes millions of posts to get there :scared:
 

Andrew

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Naaaagggghhhhh!!!!!!!

Wimps, I say!
No sand in their scrawny craws!
They are all running from your list!

This is too funny!

C'mon you guys - Do a sentence!

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios
I just want to find out the common ground to help move this thread along... discussions on what translations and such are throwing me off a bit
 

Arsenios

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I just want to find out the common ground to help move this thread along... discussions on what translations and such are throwing me off a bit

I don't know why they won't man up and post to your request...
It seemed simplifying to me, and helpful, and clean...
A bunch of teeny weener dogs, I say!
Gotta be a stand-up BIG DOG!

I mean, we're ALL dogs...

Arsenios
 

ImaginaryDay2

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total so far is 1,500+ and still very limited progress. Maybe it takes millions of posts to get there :scared:

Well, 40 years, fire and clouds, Manna, all the instructions, and only two make it.
I suppose we're right on course.
 

Josiah

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total so far is 1,500+ and still very limited progress. Maybe it takes millions of posts to get there :scared:


No. What it takes is addressing the issue rather than the ENDLESS, perpetual series of diversion.


LONG ago, I shared the condemned Lutheran (and generally Protestant view). I went to a LOT of work to do that..... passed it by two Lutheran pastors (both with doctorates in Theology) to be sure it was totally accurate... to share exactly what is the Lutheran (and generally Protestant) view on this.... admittedly the issue that fractured Western Christianity. And that would seem to be a good jumping off point: What in this view is agreed with and what is heresy. Why do Protestants embrace that and why does the RCC anathematize it. But no one (including you) would participate. Instead, we've gotten HUNDREDS of diversions - usually to things that have nothing to do with the topic here and were we generally agree (and where the CC has made a strong point of saying we agree) or to sidebar issues that MAY be perhaps loosely related but not the issue itself. I've found this is what ALWAYS happens with this: just cannot get a Catholic to discuss it. They just will not. "It's HERESY!!!" that's all you get, never ever willing to say WHAT is heresy or why. Catholics just will not do it. Protestants keep asking, Catholics just dodging.... until every Protestant gives up on this thread (and it all starts over again eventually in another thread). How many times has that happened here at CH? I've lost count.



- Josiah



.
 
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ImaginaryDay2

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We are Justified by God, through faith in the life, death, and resurrection of His Son. This "faith" is wholly a work of God in our hearts, which enables the sinner to "repent and believe". Further, we are enabled by the Holy Spirit to carry out the work of God in the world.

Woof Woof :)
 
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