Justification - Part 2

[Josiah]

But is seems to me, stupid as I am, that human beings are God's creations and that the good works to which God calls the faithful are done in Christ Jesus.

Thank you once again for that profoundly Protestant viewpoint.

Now, where is the heresy is that? See post 213 and tell us all - WHAT specifically is SO heretical, SO condemnable, SO much in need of anathematization? Your denomination - for 500 years and counting - has boldly declared the Lutheran (and typically Protestant) view is HERESY. HORRIBLE stuff. Condemnable. Meriting splitting Christianity over. Why is it seemly not possible for any Catholic (laity or religious) able to state specially WHAT in the view is this horrible heresy - only shouting that it is. And all you seem willing to do is constantly changing the subject to what the FAITH-filled, BORN-AGAIN, REGENERATE, BELIEVERS, WITH the GIFT of life, WITH the gift of the Holy Spirit are to do. An issue where there is no disagreement. Why is that?




.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Good works are the works of God done by God by using His creation to accomplish those good works.

"Master of Puppets, I'm pulling your strings..." - Metallica

Good song, bad theology

 

[MennoSota]

It seems to me, in my ignorance and stupidity, that you have contradicted yourself in the space of three lines because first you say
"Good works are the works of God done by God by using His creation to accomplish those good works."
and then you say
"As soon as humans are added, the works are corrupted and no longer good."

But is seems to me, stupid as I am, that human beings are God's creations and that the good works to which God calls the faithful are done by human beings as God's creatures created in Christ Jesus.

Shall we go back to how the vessel merely holds liquid, but the work of pouring the liquid is done by the Creator? Please see Romans 9.
Vessels don't do the work, MC. We are God's vessel, which he, by His grace, chooses to use.
100% God and 0% man.

 

[MennoSota]

"Master of Puppets, I'm pulling your strings..." - Metallica

Good song, bad theology

Never heard it. Lyrics?

 

[Albion]

I agree but this does not jive with those saying that good works come only from being saved and having faith

Am I correct to assume that you are referring to post 235 there? If so, you are correct. It is a mistake to think that the unsaved are just as capable of performing truly good works as are those who have been saved.

 

[Andrew]

Never heard it. Lyrics?

It's time to play the music
It's time to light the lights
It's time to meet the Muppets on the Muppet Show tonight
It's time to put on make up
It's time to dress up right
It's time to raise the curtain on the Muppet Show tonight

Why do we always come here
I guess we'll never know
It's like a kind of torture
To have to watch the show

But now let's get things started
Why don't you get things started
It's time to get things started
On the most sensational, inspirational, celebrational, muppetational
This is what we call the Muppet Show



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[MennoSota]

Am I correct to assume that you are referring to post 235 there? If so, you are correct. It is a mistake to think that the unsaved are just as capable of performing truly good works as are those who have been saved.

It is God who makes the work good. Any claim by a Christian that s/he does good works for God is as unfounded as a non-Christian claiming their works are good. No corrupted being can do good works. But, God can do good through anyone He so chooses. This is where grace kicks in.

 

[Albion]

I think we dismissed the robot version of grace (and faith) earlier.

 

[Andrew]

It is God who makes the work good. Any claim by a Christian that s/he does good works for God is as unfounded as a non-Christian claiming their works are good. No corrupted being can do good works. But, God can do good through anyone He so chooses. This is where grace kicks in.

What about bad works that the Justified Christians does? We can't be perfect yet we are encouraged by Paul to be like Christ.
I think I know the answer but I'm not a hundred percent

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[MoreCoffee]

Human beings are God's creations and the good works to which God calls the faithful are done by human beings as God's creatures created in Christ Jesus.

Like James says, a man is saved by works and not by faith alone.

As jsimms435 wrote

James was talking about how faith is not enough if it is alone. True faith, saving faith, will be accompanied with works. That is what led James to write in James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Just like fire gives off heat faith demonstrates it exists by works. Faith without works is not truly faith at all. And we know that without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6
The works is not what saves a person. But, it is evidence that the faith is there. Just like if I breath in and air goes into my lungs. The evidence that the air is there is that I took a breath and it entered my lungs and now I breath. The faith itself is a gift of God. That is why it says in Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

Brother jsimms435 words the matter a little differently from me and a little differently from saint James but if I am not mistaken his words still intend to teach that a man is saved by works and not by faith alone. And as saint Gregory the great wrote "The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist." which applies equally to faith. The proof of faith is in the works. Where faith exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

 

[MennoSota]

What about bad works that the Justified Christians does? We can't be perfect yet we are encouraged by Paul to be like Christ.
I think I know the answer but I'm not a hundred percent

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Our justification is in Christ alone. Therefore our actions are no better and no worse than any human. To be like Christ is for us to die to self and have Christ live in us. (Galatians 2:20)
It is a foolish thing to judge ourselves against other humans. There are none who do good. This is because of our human corruption. But, God is good and God does good things through His children, despite their corruption. This is what God's grace accomplishes.
The Apostle said: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
100% God and 0% man.

 

[Andrew]

Human beings are God's creations and the good works to which God calls the faithful are done by human beings as God's creatures created in Christ Jesus.

Like James says, a man is saved by works and not by faith alone.

As jsimms435 wrote

James was talking about how faith is not enough if it is alone. True faith, saving faith, will be accompanied with works. That is what led James to write in James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Just like fire gives off heat faith demonstrates it exists by works. Faith without works is not truly faith at all. And we know that without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6
The works is not what saves a person. But, it is evidence that the faith is there. Just like if I breath in and air goes into my lungs. The evidence that the air is there is that I took a breath and it entered my lungs and now I breath. The faith itself is a gift of God. That is why it says in Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

Brother jsimms435 words the matter a little differently from me and a little differently from saint James but if I am not mistaken his words still intend to teach that a man is saved by works and not by faith alone. And as saint Gregory the great wrote "The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist." which applies equally to faith. The proof of faith is in the works. Where faith exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

True. Faith could be interpreted as 'belief" and Jesus did say "believe in me"
Paul adds however...
"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."
Acts 19:2


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[Arsenios]

MC made a strong appeal so it got cleaned up of the personal jabs and is reopened.

Well Glory to God!

Thank-you MC...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Our justification is in Christ alone. Therefore our actions are no better and no worse than any human. To be like Christ is for us to die to self and have Christ live in us. (Galatians 2:20)
It is a foolish thing to judge ourselves against other humans. There are none who do good. This is because of our human corruption. But, God is good and God does good things through His children, despite their corruption. This is what God's grace accomplishes.
The Apostle said: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."
100% God and 0% man.

I can see MC writing this post, are you sure there wasn't a glitch or mix up MC? When you MC just wrote this post?

 

[MennoSota]

I can see MC writing this post, are you sure there wasn't a glitch or mix up MC? When you MC just wrote this post?

MC is a secret Calvinist. He just doesn't know it.

 

[Arsenios]

Now, where is the heresy in that?
WHAT specifically is SO heretical, SO condemnable, SO much in need of anathematization?
WHAT in the view is this horrible heresy

All they need to do is show that it is not the teaching of the Church...
Which is not hard to do, because the doctrine asserts that Salvation comes before and is unto repentance...
And the teaching of every Church on earth for the first thousand years of the History of Christianity and even up to this very day and hour is that repentance is unto Salvation... And you have already conceded that "narrow Justification" IS what the Church regards as Salvation...

In terms of Apostolic teaching, to say that Salvation is unto repentance is to preclude Salvation, and indeed to prevent it, because God does not Justify the unrepentant... And this because repentance is the obedience that the Call unto Salvation engenders in the elect, which results in God Justifying the one repenting in Baptism into Christ, and then come the major overcomings of repentance unto Glorification by God, which is Theosis, where the very shadow of Peter passing over them healed the sick by reason of the great Grace Peter walked in... The Faith is obedience to Christ by means of Repentance, and it is through this Faith of Christ by which we are repenting that we are saved by Grace, the Grace of God... For by Grace (eg by God) are ye saved through the Faith (of Christ which is repentance in obedience to Christ), and this (Salvation) is not of yourself... Of God the Gift (of Salvation)...

Man obeys Christ - eg Man repents...
God saves the repenting man...
Salvation is union with God...
Man cannot give himself God, because man does not have God to give to himself...
And this was the error of Adam - To become God through eating creation...
Christ said "You must eat My Body and drink My Blood to have Life in you..."

The Way of Repentance is the Way of Salvation...
Because God does not save the unrepentant...

But the Lutherean doctrine as you present it has God saving the unrepentant so that they can repent...
And this is entirely false, and for the Latins whose Luther was, heretical and inimical to God...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you once again for that profoundly Protestant viewpoint.

Now, where is the heresy is that? See post 213 and tell us all - WHAT specifically is SO heretical, SO condemnable, SO much in need of anathematization? Your denomination - for 500 years and counting - has boldly declared the Lutheran (and typically Protestant) view is HERESY. HORRIBLE stuff. Condemnable. Meriting splitting Christianity over. Why is it seemly not possible for any Catholic (laity or religious) able to state specially WHAT in the view is this horrible heresy - only shouting that it is. And all you seem willing to do is constantly changing the subject to what the FAITH-filled, BORN-AGAIN, REGENERATE, BELIEVERS, WITH the GIFT of life, WITH the gift of the Holy Spirit are to do. An issue where there is no disagreement. Why is that?

I wrote "But is seems to me, stupid as I am, that human beings are God's creations and that the good works to which God calls the faithful are done in Christ Jesus." and you posted the above quote as your reply.

What I wrote is not condemned nor is it anathematised, it is in fact what Trent wrote in its canons, though the arrangement of the words is mine the words themselves and their meaning is taken from Trent. What was condemned is in the passage from Trent that I have quoted several times in this thread. Namely;

"AGAINST THE VAIN CONFIDENCE OF HERETICS

But though it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted nor ever have been remitted except gratuitously by divine mercy for Christ's sake, yet it must not be said that sins are forgiven or have been forgiven to anyone who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, resting on that alone, though among heretics and schismatics this vain and ungodly confidence may be and in our troubled times indeed is found and preached with untiring fury against the Catholic Church.

Moreover, it must not be maintained, that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubt whatever, convince themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified except he that believes with certainty that he is absolved and justified, and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone, as if he who does not believe this, doubts the promises of God and the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ.

For as no pious person ought to doubt the mercy of God, the merit of Christ and the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, so each one, when he considers himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension concerning his own grace, since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.​

"

 

[TangledWeb]

All they need to do is show that it is not the teaching of the Church...
Which is not hard to do, because the doctrine asserts that Salvation comes before and is unto repentance...
And the teaching of every Church on earth for the first thousand years of the History of Christianity and even up to this very day and hour is that repentance is unto Salvation... And you have already conceded that "narrow Justification" IS what the Church regards as Salvation...

In terms of Apostolic teaching, to say that Salvation is unto repentance is to preclude Salvation, and indeed to prevent it, because God does not Justify the unrepentant... And this because repentance is the obedience that the Call unto Salvation engenders in the elect, which results in God Justifying the one repenting in Baptism into Christ, and then come the major overcomings of repentance unto Glorification by God, which is Theosis, where the very shadow of Peter passing over them healed the sick by reason of the great Grace Peter walked in... The Faith is obedience to Christ by means of Repentance, and it is through this Faith of Christ by which we are repenting that we are saved by Grace, the Grace of God... For by Grace (eg by God) are ye saved through the Faith (of Christ which is repentance in obedience to Christ), and this (Salvation) is not of yourself... Of God the Gift (of Salvation)...

Man obeys Christ - eg Man repents...
God saves the repenting man...
Salvation is union with God...
Man cannot give himself God, because man does not have God to give to himself...
And this was the error of Adam - To become God through eating creation...
Christ said "You must eat My Body and drink My Blood to have Life in you..."

The Way of Repentance is the Way of Salvation...
Because God does not save the unrepentant...

But the Lutherean doctrine as you present it has God saving the unrepentant so that they can repent...
And this is entirely false, and for the Latins whose Luther was, heretical and inimical to God...

Arsenios

How is it that the unsaved can change his mind about God (aka Repent) when he doesn't even believe that God exists at all?

 

[MoreCoffee]

How is it that the unsaved can change his mind about God (aka Repent) when he doesn't even believe that God exists at all?

He can change because God commands him to change, the command in and of itself enables belief to all who hear and receive the message.

 

[TangledWeb]

He can change because God commands him to change, the command in and of itself enables belief to all who hear and receive the message.

Then we agree that the unsaved who is an unbeliever cannot repent unless God enables belief which is actually faith and faith makes one a believer. Now, does that other guy Arsenios agree with us as well even though he keeps insisting that the unsaved nonbeliever can repent apart from faith?