Justification - Part 2

[Josiah]

This thread is about justification. Specifically about what the word means and by implication how it happens/works. It is not about why this or that Protestant revolt event happened or why this or that Protestant reform was introduced not even why Protestants believe this or that about what they think Catholics teach.

See post 213.

It's the view of Justification that the RCC declared is HERESY - and thus holds is very fundamentally WRONG.

Why won't you tell us WHAT specifically in it is so horribly WRONG? Why the dodge? That certainly would help us know what your denomination holds is RIGHT - since your denomination has boldly declared for 500 years now that it's heresy to be boldly anathematized.

See post 215 and 218. How can we possibly come to a better understanding (much less any agreement) if you refuse to state specifically where the disagreement is, where specifically the horrible heresy is stated? See post 213.



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[MoreCoffee]

See post 213.

It's the view of Justification that the RCC declared is HERESY - and thus holds is very fundamentally WRONG.

Why won't you tell us WHAT specifically in it is so horribly WRONG? Why the dodge? That certainly would help us know what your denomination holds is RIGHT - since your denomination has boldly declared for 500 years now that it's heresy to be boldly anathematized.

See post 215 and 218. How can we possibly come to a better understanding (much less any agreement) if you refuse to state specifically where the disagreement is, where specifically the horrible heresy is stated? See post 213.

Brother Josiah, I am not going to re-read posts 213, 215, and 218 and I am not going to comment on them either. It is no good cutting and pasting old posts as if they are somehow magically going to prove any point that they did not 'prove' before. Repeating your old posts is not helpful. My practise is to skip over such repeated posts without comment. I think I have said this before but I am saying it again now in the hope that you will stop cutting and pasting and/or referencing old posts.

Returning to the topic. Justification is to be made righteous both in law and in reality. The degree of real moral and godly development depends on many things and moral perfection is not demanded. Job was called a perfect man upright in all his ways and Enoch was said to be pleasing to God. These are biblical ways of saying that these men did what God required of them to the limits of their abilities. That is why creatures such as human beings can be pleasing to God despite imperfections that Satan may have tried to use as evidence that they were as unworthy as he. Obviously they were not. So when James writes that Abraham was justified by what he did he is affirming that good works justify and that good works come from an obedient heart moved by belief of God's statements and a desire to do what God asks. So a man is justified by works and not my faith alone.

 

[NewCreation435]

Brother Josiah, I am not going to re-read posts 213, 215, and 218 and I am not going to comment on them either. It is no good cutting and pasting old posts as if they are somehow magically going to prove any point that they did not 'prove' before. Repeating your old posts is not helpful. My practise is to skip over such repeated posts without comment. I think I have said this before but I am saying it again now in the hope that you will stop cutting and pasting and/or referencing old posts.

Returning to the topic. Justification is to be made righteous both in law and in reality. The degree of real moral and godly development depends on many things and moral perfection is not demanded. Job was called a perfect man upright in all his ways and Enoch was said to be pleasing to God. These are biblical ways of saying that these men did what God required of them to the limits of their abilities. That is why creatures such as human beings can be pleasing to God despite imperfections that Satan may have tried to use as evidence that they were as unworthy as he. Obviously they were not. So when James writes that Abraham was justified by what he did he is affirming that good works justify and that good works come from an obedient heart moved by belief of God's statements and a desire to do what God asks. So a man is justified by works and not my faith alone.

James was talking about how faith is not enough if it is alone. True faith, saving faith, will be accompanied with works. That is what led James to write in James 2:14-17
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Just like fire gives off heat faith demonstrates it exists by works. Faith without works is not truly faith at all. And we know that without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6
The works is not what saves a person. But, it is evidence that the faith is there. Just like if I breath in and air goes into my lungs. The evidence that the air is there is that I took a breath and it entered my lungs and now I breath. The faith itself is a gift of God. That is why it says in Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[Josiah]

I am not going to re-read posts 213, 215, and 218 and I am not going to comment on them either.

Thus, NOTHING results...... NO opportunity for growing understanding and even less for growing agreement. Your denomination made the view expressed in 213 THE issue, condemned it as heresy, and has been shouting anathemas over it for 500 years - not only splitting Western Christianity over THIS but keeping it split over THIS. And you (in typical Catholic fashion) refuse to discuss it, REFUSE to clearly indicate WHAT in the position is heresy and wrong but continuing to shout condemnations, rebukes, anathemas for "THAT" (we just see Catholics like you REFUSING to indicate what "THAT" is). I wonder why....


Well, no MC, I won't be "bullied" into dropping the subject. There is no more important thing in all the universe, in all eternity (and that's no hyperbole). And this IS the VERY THING your denomination chose to make the centerpiece of the Reformation debate, the issue on which to condemn Lutherans and to split Western Christianity over. You (for whatever reason) running from this doesn't change it. Perhaps you have no clue why your denomination holds (in the boldest way) that the Lutheran position is so very, very, horribly wrong, such heresy......if so, it might be good for you to admit that. Perhaps you feel your denomination is wrong on this most important issue of all.... it might be good to admit that, if that be the case. But I will bring up this topic whenever relevant (especially in thread is specifically about it). And I will continue to ask Catholics to tell me: WHAT SPECIFICALLY is the terrible, horrible, condemnable HERESY in the Lutheran position? Even though, for over 10 years, none will even consider the question and will do all they can to evade the question. For whatever reason they have for this evasion.



- Josiah



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[Arsenios]

Maybe an example. Where I live, there are a number of folks in our 'downtown core' who are homeless, some (not all) are addicted to Heroin and Fentanyl. Fentanyl is quite lethal and is sometimes used on its own, or is 'cut' into the Heroin unbeknownst to the user. So if a person uses, and overdoses, many on the streets (and others, like myself) have access to what's called "Naloxone". It's injected into the muscle of a person who has overdosed and will temporarily reverse the effects of Opiates. That way, the person who has OD'd can be roused and given medical attention.

All that to say this - if I were to come across someone on the street who had OD'd, and I had my Naloxone kit with me and administered it to the person, is it me that is doing the work to administer the Naloxone? Yes, clearly! Is it out of a right and good motive? Yes, clearly - preservation of life! Is preservation of life motivated by the Grace of God in me? Yes, clearly! WHY? Because, as a Christian, I recognize, admit, and acknowledge that it is the Grace of God in me that birthed the desire to preserve life and act.

Do I get credit, then? No. Credit the Grace of God in me that prompted me to act.
Faith without works is dead (and so is the man on the street)

The issues Josiah raises are formulaic and doctrinaire, and so are not amenable to practical applications such as you suggest and I myself prefer... The formulaic "narrow justification as the Gifts of God etc" is inferred from Scriptural interpretation and then posited, and is not a formulated term or doctrine found in the Bible... When practical issues arise, they are referred to "post narrow justification" issues which are not in view of the beginnings of "narrow justification"...

Christ asked Saul: "Why persecuteth thou Me?"... That means that Proto-Martyr James, whom Paul persecuted unto death, IS Christ in an important and very REAL way... Knowing that Way is knowing God, which IS life eternal... It is progressively attained, from faith to faith, from Glory to Glory, as we obey the Gospel of Repentance, which IS named in the Bible... But all this is swept aside with a posited formula of "narrow justification"... When Justification is the second phase of Salvation - God CALLS, God JUSTIFIES, God GLORIFIES... This is the Salvation of God, and it is being ignored for the sake of a non-Biblical formulaic that insists that the Gifts of God are given which ARE Salvation and THEN we do their works, when the work of repentance is the life-long labor of all Christians in the response of obedience to the Gospel command "Be ye repenting" (unto the end)...

Repenting, you see, is the proper response to the CALL of God in the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
And Paul instructs us to persevere to the end...
The LABOR of repentance comes to a point wherein God Justifies the penitent...
And then the labors are enhanced within the Kingdom of Heaven on earth...
And when the Giants are overcome (David beheading Goliath) we are Glorified by God on earth...
Such that the shadow of Peter brings healing to the sick...

So I do not see a way to engage Josiah in this complaint he has with the Latin Church...
Approaching the issue of the means of Salvation seems ruled out...
He but seems to be insisting that an anathema be justified in view of this formulaic...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I thought this thread got closed...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

I thought this thread got closed...

Arsenios

Ummmm surprise!

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[Lamb]

I thought this thread got closed...

Arsenios

MC made a strong appeal so it got cleaned up of the personal jabs and is reopened.

 

[RichWh1]

Doing good works is a result of salvation not a means to it.


What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Romans 4:1-3


Righteousness and justification are the same Greek word.
δικαιοσυνη
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[psalms 91]

Just a quick question, how about those who are not saved and do good works? I am curious how you reconcile that

 

[Josiah]

So I do not see a way to engage Josiah in this complaint he has with the Latin Church...

[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]


The "Latin Church" dogmatically insists that the Lutheran view (as expressed in post 213) is horrible heresy and for 500 years has anathematized it. Since the "Latin Church" views the perspective in post 213 as such profound HERESY, it must view it as WRONG. Do you agree?

The "Latin Church" has never said (not 500 years ago, not now) that "The Lutheran position is wonderfully correct - as far as it goes - but more needs to be said, and what the Lutherans say additionally is also wonderfully correct." It's NEVER been a matter of Lutherans saying "too little" but rather that what the Lutherans say (see post 213) is horrible heresy, to be condemned, and is anathematized. Do you understand the distinction here?

What I have never been able to determine.... in all my conservations with Catholic teachers and apologists.... at various sites (including Catholic Answers, the premier Catholic apologetics website)... and in all my MANY conversations with Catholics (including two priests) at various websites.... is WHAT is heresy in the perspective (see post 213)? WHAT specifically in the Lutheran view is so horribly wrong and heretical? All I get are diversions into OTHER issues where we typically agree with each other. Or I get some obscure Catholic statement condemning something Lutherans have NEVER believed or confessed (as the Catholic usually admits). IF it's SO terribly wrong, why won't any Catholic identify WHAT is so terribly wrong? IF it is so horrible as to justify splitting Western Christianity over for 500 years, why won't any Catholic identify WHAT is so horrible as to justify that? Do you find this odd, as well?


I think what I have asked MoreCoffee (and at least a dozen other Catholics online - including two Catholic priests) to do seems reasonable. And should be easy. I gave a solid summery of the Lutheran position again in post 213. According to the RCC, there is abundant, obvious, clear HERESY in what is STATED. Where? What? Do you feel this is a very unreasonable, even IMPOSSIBLE request? Seems to me, if a big denomination is going to split Christianity over something.... excommunicate people over something.... anathematize a view as horrible heresy ... it should AT LEAST be able to identify WHAT specifically is so heretical, so horrible. Why the persistent dodge, all the evasions, all the profound efforts to switch the discussion - often to things we agree on? I wonder if you have a clue? Has the RCC ever behaved similarly to the Orthodox?



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[RichWh1]

Just a quick question, how about those who are not saved and do good works? I am curious how you reconcile that

I think John said what would happen.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:13-15


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[Josiah]

Those who are DEAD, who do NOT have spiritual life or the Holy Spirit or faith or justification CANNOT do good works. "Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God." Yes, BEFORE HUMANS, even a dog can do something nice. But "nice" is not a good work.... good works require FAITH and LIFE.

And again, if a dog could earn Justification - spiritual life - faith - the Holy Spirit by helping a little old lady across the street, then Jesus is a joke, isn't He? Christianity is wrong when it says that Jesus IS THE Savior (since obviously self saves self - being nice, something even dogs can do). YES - as EVERYONE HAS ALWAYS believed and confessed, one WITH life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification is to do good works - but that's not the issue of this thread and that's not an issue ever in dispute.

 

[Albion]

Just a quick question, how about those who are not saved and do good works? I am curious how you reconcile that

This may be what Josiah was getting at, but an unsaved person who does good works is not actually doing good works in the sense of meritorious works. He merely is doing what is right, what he ought to do. Good works in the theological sense are not merely proper but God-pleasing (to use a term that some people prefer and like to use).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just a quick question, how about those who are not saved and do good works? I am curious how you reconcile that

It is like the rain falling on the crops of the just and the unjust alike and the sun shining on both. The unjust can do good works, they can do things that are obedient to the commandments of God. They can love and be kind and that is a grace from God to them just like the rain and sunshine. God willing those who do good even without explicit faith in Jesus Christ will by God's grace come to know Jesus Christ and receive him. That is what we pray. May God have mercy upon us all.

 

[psalms 91]

I agree but this does not jive with those saying that good works come only from being saved and having faith

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree but this does not jive with those saying that good works come only from being saved and having faith

Sometimes it take many blinks in the light before the eye adjusts to the brightness. I think it is that way with some graces from God. May God give courage and patience to those blinking as their eyes adjust - it is all to God's glory that the light is seen even when it take a little while to adjust to it. We all take time to adjust. That is part of the labour of salvation. It is one of the good works that God gives to us to do; allowing the grace of God to penetrate and adjust the pupils until they can see the things that are in the light.

 

[MennoSota]

Good works are the works of God done by the faithful through God's grace to them and in them. You knew that I think. The comments about "self" are non sequitur.

Good works are the works of God done by God by using His creation to accomplish those good works.
Our justification is entirely based upon God and God alone.
It can be no other way. As soon as humans are added, the works are corrupted and no longer good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good works are the works of God done by God by using His creation to accomplish those good works.
Our justification is entirely based upon God and God alone.
It can be no other way. As soon as humans are added, the works are corrupted and no longer good.

It seems to me, in my ignorance and stupidity, that you have contradicted yourself in the space of three lines because first you say
"Good works are the works of God done by God by using His creation to accomplish those good works."
and then you say
"As soon as humans are added, the works are corrupted and no longer good."

But is seems to me, stupid as I am, that human beings are God's creations and that the good works to which God calls the faithful are done by human beings as God's creatures created in Christ Jesus.

 

[Josiah]

I agree but this does not jive with those saying that good works come only from being saved and having faith

"Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God."


Can a dog help a little old lady across the street? Probably. Is that a nice thing? Okay. Is it how one achieves his justification/spiritual life/faith/the Holy Spirit? IMO, no.

NO ONE is against being nice.... it's just that being nice doesn't justify anyone, doesn't mean ERGO that one springs to spiritual life, doesn't mean ergo that one gains has the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean Christianity is WRONG because Jesus is NOT the Savior (self is - by being nice, doing stuff that dogs at times do).

Good works (in the sight of God) spring from spiritual life and faith, empowered and directed by the Holy Spirit. If a dog doesn't have spiritual life, doesn't have saving faith in Jesus, doesn't have the Holy Spirit - then the pouch CAN do nice deeds but not good works.

But note well the amazing evasion - page after page, for endless posts - dodging the issue of Justification and instead do ALL POSSIBLE to talk about what the Justified should do (an issue no one disagrees with). Perhaps the HOPE is you'll say to yourself, "Well, I agree with this Catholic on this OTHER SUBJECT that no one disagrees with them about - so we agree on Justification, too." Maybe that game works. All I've asked is for a Catholic to look at the condemned, repudiated, anathematized Lutheran position and tell us EXACTLY, SPECIFICALLY, what is heretical. None will do so. Just ENDLESS changing the subject. Hum. Makes you wonder.



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