Justification

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Arsenios

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Oh my, I wrote this the night before the Santa Fe tragedy an hours drive from where I live... :(

The only good news on the killer is that his courage failed him when it came time to commit suicide...
This means that he will have time to repent...
Authorities have charged him with a Capital Crime...

Close to home changes things...

Statistics become personal events...

Arsenios
 

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Q: So what's the percentage that comes from you (for those who believe in their doing something for their justification) and how much of it comes from Christ?
A: A man is made righteous by works and not by faith alone and you are saved by grace through faith so that you can do the good works that God prepared in advance to be your way of life. Hence grace saves, faith and good works justify, and the gospel starts with God's call to repent and believe. It looks like 100% and 100%.

Is that 100% God and 100% man? Is that what your response is?
 

popsthebuilder

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Pretty sure hearing and believing/ following is at very least partially our responsibility.......
Is there anything I can DO to become one of the elect?

Arsenios

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popsthebuilder

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No. You are at the mercy of the Sovereign God who either chooses to extend grace or extend judgment. It is his to decide.
If you hear his voice you will believe. If you don't hear his voice, you will consider the gospel to be foolishness.
But I thought it was GOD'S will that all be reconciled unto HIM.



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popsthebuilder

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What is the difference between Salvation and Justification?
And how are they related?

The stages in human terms according to Paul are
1 - God Calls us [to repentance]
2- God Justifies those He has Called
3 - God Glorifies those He has Justified...


And we should add to this that many are Called, and few are Chosen...

And in addition to the above, what is quintessential Salvation?
Is Justification by God a PART of it?
How does God Justify?
How does man KNOW God has Justified him...

You cannot, by Ancient Faith standards, simply ignore Christian history, then POSIT what some narrow sense of Justification is according to your own interpretation of what you read in the Bible, and then go on to argue that the Ancient Faith totally missed out on the Truth of the Faith of Christ...

You have to start out with HOW man is lost, and HOW he finds his Salvation in this being lost, and what Salvation IS for the lost... iow You must begin with a CONTEXT for man's NEED for God to Justify him... And in this, you have to answer Paul's three stages of Salvation...

Justification is stage two...

You have not addressed this - Insisting that "narrow Justification", your own admittedly technical term, which sounds a lot like Orthodox Salvation, is the fundamental term. It is NOT - It is stage two as Paul instructs...

Can you simply address Paul's words?

Rom_8:30
Moreover whom He did Fore-ordain, them He also Called:
and whom He Called, them He also Justified:
and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified.


Would you please engage this text? It should be clear that Justification is second in a string of three, or 3rd of 4, or 4th of 5... One simply CANNOT treat it as fundamental in the Gospel of Christ... Unless Called and Glorified are equally fundamental...



Fallacy of the FALSE alternative... I agree that Christ is the Savior and that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life... And I utterly disagree with your theory of Justification as you have so far explained it...

Arsenios
In your steps I'm guessing you left something out intentionally?

If many are called yet few are chosen then it follows that we have the potential to choose not to heed said call...right? It that what you were getting at?

peace

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popsthebuilder

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But we are saved by hearing AND believing......if one believesin a thing then they act accordingly. It doesn't simply say we are saved by hearing alone does it?

If humans were that meritorious and capable, they would not need a Savior. If we did not need a Savior, there would not have been any need for the Incarnation. Or is that event--the central event in all human history--supposed to have been nothing more than a goodwill visit from God to his creatures?

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popsthebuilder

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So one doesn't need to be perceptive to the Word in order to hear IT?

God justifies us because he chooses to. What you and I do has no effect on God's choice of justifying us.

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popsthebuilder

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None is anything worth honorable mention without or in denial of Christ.
Apart from Christ, no action is good.
Sin is wicked because God set the standard.
God says that all fall short. All are damned by sin.
There is no praise for goodness except for Christ and his goodness.
Why do you imagine yourself to be good? What standard of measurement are you using?

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But we are saved by hearing AND believing......if one believesin a thing then they act accordingly. It doesn't simply say we are saved by hearing alone does it?



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It's not our hearing and believing that does the actual saving but God's calling us because of Christ that saves us. We can hear and believe because HE reaches out to us by His Word (specifically the Gospel in order to give us faith).
 

popsthebuilder

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"All mankind deserves judgment by a just God. But, God chose to redeem some anyway."


What? By judgent you mean eternal indescribable torture right?

GOD created man with full knowledge of the potential put in us by HIM. So how is what you said remotely just?

We won't even get into merciful at this point.
No.
God made Adam and Eve for His glory. Man rebelled against God.
All mankind deserves judgment by a just God. But, God chose to redeem some anyway.
The whole double predestination argument seems to come from people who want to work their way into God's favor rather than accept that God is Sovereign and God alone chooses to grant pardon to sinners.

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popsthebuilder

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It's not our hearing and believing that does the actual saving but God's calling us because of Christ that saves us. We can hear and believe because HE reaches out to us by His Word (specifically the Gospel in order to give us faith).
John 12: 42. Nevertheless even from among the Rulers many believed in Him. But because of the Pharisees they did not avow their belief, for fear they should be shut out from the synagogue. 43. For they loved the glory that comes from men rather than the glory that comes from God. 44. But Jesus cried aloud, "He who believes in me, believes not so much in me, as in Him who sent me; 45. and he who sees me sees Him who sent me. 46. I have come like light into the world, in order that no one who believes in me may remain in the dark. 47. And if any one hears my teachings and regards them not, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48. He who sets me at naught and does not receive my teachings is not left without a judge: the Message which I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49. Because I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me, Himself gave me a command what to say and in what words to speak. 50. And I know that His command is the Life of the Ages. What therefore I speak, I speak just as the Father has bidden me."

Luke 8: 12. Those by the way-side are those who have heard, and then the Devil comes and carries away the Message from their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luke 8: 13. Those on the rock are the people who on hearing the Message receive it joyfully; but they have no root: for a time they believe, but when trial comes they fall away.

Luke 8: 14. That which fell among the thorns means those who have heard, but as they go on their way, the Message is stifled by the anxieties, wealth and gaieties of time, and they yield nothing in perfection.


(According to the words of Jesus we are saved through actual believe which would be synonimous with action/ word based on said belief in my opinion.)

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MennoSota

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If man only gives 99.9% does that discount him from heaven? What's the cut-off line? Does God ever go under 100%? Does God ever go over 100%? Where do we find the statistical data in the Bible? Is there a spreadsheet or a rubric available?
I had confidence you'd work it out.
 

popsthebuilder

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If man only gives 99.9% does that discount him from heaven? What's the cut-off line? Does God ever go under 100%? Does God ever go over 100%? Where do we find the statistical data in the Bible? Is there a spreadsheet or a rubric available?
Is man made righteous in/ by Christ?

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Josiah

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If God does 99% of it, then Jesus is not the Savior and the Holy Spirit is not the Giver of Life, and IMO, it is deceptive and wrong to proclaim that He is.

If Jesus (as I was taught in the RCC) just "opened the door to heaven so that you can get yourself through it" and "Jesus actually saves no one but He makes it possible for all to be saved" then Jesus in not - in any sense or manner or degree - the Savior. He is the Possibility-Maker. And IMO, it is deceptive and wrong to refer to Him as Savior when it is denied that He is.

If Jesus (as I was taught in the RCC) is just ONE (of very many) helpers who "helps those who help themselves" giving us the divine enabling so that we can do what we otherwise would not - then Jesus is not - in any sense or manner or degree - the Savior. He is just one of the helpers.

IF Jesus did His part (the part that is ineffectual and actually causes no one to be saved) and then we add our part (the part that actually matters, the part that actually accomplishes something, the part that actually means we are a child of God and heaven-bound, then Jesus is not - in any sense or manner - the Savior. He is at most the PART Savior (the part that doesn't matter) and then (IMO) it is deceptive and wrong to call Him the Savior. He is just the PART Savior.


Luther lived in a world where the Gospel was often displaced - by Indulgence Sellers who wanted people to think their generous giving was the cause of their justification (not Jesus, not the Cross, not the Empty Tomb), and very often by largely ignorant and uneducated Catholic priests who simply were never taught the Gospel and thus never taught it. Luther - a Doctor in the Church whose "job" included noting error - decried this very UNCATHOLIC teaching, teaching that violated the Council of Orange and so much more, preaching that was actually contrary to Catholicism. He is very polite in the beginning. He was very patient in the beginning. He PASSIONATELY believed that the Bishops of the Church and even the very corrupt Holy Father would be GLAD Luther noted all this and would be QUICK to correct this very unchristian, un-Catholic message (even if it MIGHT - maybe - result in lower income from the Germans). He learned - after a year or so - that he was VERY wrong. Although it took 40 years or so, the RCC chose to NOT correct the really bad unbiblical, unchristian teaching the Indulgence Sellers were preaching, they would dogmatize it. And MY experience (and it seems Albions' too) .... that of virtually every Catholic known to me... this errant preaching continues to this day. For LUTHER, it was a case of honoring Christ, of lifting high the Cross, of pointing people to the Cross rather than to their mirror. And ANYTHING that implied Jesus was irrelevant, Jesus is not the Savior, the Holy Spirit is not the giver of life, that self saves self - is DANGEROUS, DANGEROUS stuff, that highly threatens the Gospel and the Christian faith and creates a "terror of conscience". Luther knew this from personal experience, because he too had had ignorant priests in his life who had taught the same thing: self saves self (with help). Lutherans to this day are sensitive to things that undermine the Christian religion, the Gospel of Christ... and make Christianity just a slight variant of Islam on this point.



A blessed Pentecost to all....


- Josiah
 

Arsenios

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Is that 100% God and 100% man? Is that what your response is?

That is my answer too ...

Man does 100% of repentance...
God does 100% of Salvation...

Fallen man is ABLE to repent from evil...
Fallen man is ABLE to embrace evil...

That is simply the consequence of the Fall of Adam...
Adam ate of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND evil...
For immature Adam, that Fruit is lethal, and the serpent knew it...
Hence Adam died and was cast out from the Garden which was then closed to him...

Church Tradition teaches that he remained outside at the gates weeping for what he had done and what he had lost even to his last days on earth when his soul finally separated from his death ridden body and he died... There was no death in Adam until he sinned, and for us to regaian what he lost, we must be cleansed from all sin, and that is what Baptism into Christ does for us... That is the condition of soul that is needed to regain Adam, and then to move beyond Adam we are also reborn into Christ in that same purity of heart which we receive in Baptism...

Holding that purity undefiled is the Way of Christian Life in Christ, which is a lifetime of ongoing repentance from the evils of the world which ever will assail us, to the end of our days... And in this we are at Peace in God's Rest...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Pretty sure hearing and believing/ following is at very least partially our responsibility.......

I would sure want to think so, but it seems to be ruled out if we are morturary stone cold dead and then all we can do is wait for God to do something that Justifies us so we can then hear and believe and follow...

That is the problem with the "total depravity" theory...

Arsenios
 

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That is my answer too ...

Man does 100% of repentance...
God does 100% of Salvation...

2 Timothy 2:25 disagrees with you
God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

Repentance is gift talk...it comes from God and turns us to Him in faith.
 

Arsenios

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In your steps I'm guessing you left something out intentionally?

If many are called yet few are chosen then it follows that
we have the potential to choose not to heed said call...right?
It that what you were getting at?

You are obviously not as dumb as I look...
But then, who COULD be?? :)

Yes, and moreso, that willingness is a matter of degrees, varying from person to person...
So that each person is choosing according to his or her strength, and the measure of the talent(s) given...
And the Purposing of God's Providence...
And so forth...

When we encounter God, all is easy and clear and energy is abundant and we can do this and say that and we are in what can legitimately be called the "honeymoon" phase... Then comes the Marriage... And that buoyancy will depart, and the easy Joy with it, and problems will arise with no solutions all that visible, and we will call on God and hear nothing back, and if you are like me, you will know for a (false mind you) FACT that God has given up on you...

And THAT is the precise moment when it is time to dig your heels into your Faith and suffer through whatever trials are assailing, for that is the time of growth in Christ... All your great works as Christ was flowing through you did not give you growth... But the trials do...

Arsenios
 
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