Justification

[MoreCoffee]

At times that's how Calvinist doctrine seem to me. A Godly coin-flip. "For God so loved the Elect that..."

oh, wait...

That is true of every system of theology that teaches God alone decides without any reference to human merit, culture, goodness, badness, and everything human. It becomes an impenetrable unrevealed secret that God alone knows. And to cap it off objecting to the theology is likened objecting to God's goodness and God's justice and God's trustworthiness. If you say "but that's not fair! a good man can perish in hell and a bad man be elect! That's not right." the answer will be "all men deserve hell and it is purely because of God's goodness that any are saved." What do you say in reply? Well the holy scriptures do point to human works and human beliefs as playing a role in election but the holy scriptures also point to God's wisdom and power and foreknowledge as playing a role in election. Some call it a paradox and others - notably evangelicals - call it an antinomy but both words point to the same thing; namely, two seemingly reasonable premises leading to a apparently contradictory conclusion. But if it really is a mystery to human beings then why create a theology that insists on dismissing human merit and giving exclusive emphasis to God's sovereignty rather than just saying "I do not know why God elects this one and not that one but you, my friend, have heard the gospel and you are called to repent and believe the gospel so make your decision and know that your decisions will determine your final state - in heaven or in hell - it is in your hands right now."

 

[MennoSota]

Flip a coin?

No. Our efforts are inconsequential. Our human goal is purely to rebel and take control. Even your comment, MCs comment. and Arsenios comment imply the desire to wrestle for control over your own destiny.
We will never know the mind of God in whom he chooses to extend his saving grace. That is his decision to make and ours to accept.
The elect will hear God's voice and will be justified by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Albion]

That is true of every system of theology that teaches God alone decides without any reference to human merit, culture, goodness, badness, and everything human. It becomes an impenetrable unrevealed secret that God alone knows. And to cap it off objecting to the theology is likened objecting to God's goodness and God's justice and God's trustworthiness. If you say "but that's not fair! a good man can perish in hell and a bad man be elect! That's not right." the answer will be "all men deserve hell and it is purely because of God's goodness that any are saved." What do you say in reply? Well the holy scriptures do point to human works and human beliefs as playing a role in election but the holy scriptures also point to God's wisdom and power and foreknowledge as playing a role in election. Some call it a paradox and others - notably evangelicals - call it an antinomy but both words point to the same thing; namely, two seemingly reasonable premises leading to a apparently contradictory conclusion. But if it really is a mystery to human beings then why create a theology that insists on dismissing human merit and giving exclusive emphasis to God's sovereignty rather than just saying "I do not know why God elects this one and not that one but you, my friend, have heard the gospel and you are called to repent and believe the gospel so make your decision and know that your decisions will determine your final state - in heaven or in hell - it is in your hands right now."

If humans were that meritorious and capable, they would not need a Savior. If we did not need a Savior, there would not have been any need for the Incarnation. Or is that event--the central event in all human history--supposed to have been nothing more than a goodwill visit from God to his creatures?

 

[MennoSota]

MC wrote:
Well the holy scriptures do point to human works and human beliefs as playing a role in election

No, the Holy scriptures do not point to human works and beliefs as playing a role in election.
Your dogma teaches this, but God’s word does not.
It would not be election if you earned the choice by your merit. Such a concept would be contrary to God's word.

 

[Josiah]

If humans were that meritorious and capable, they would not need a Savior. If we did not need a Savior, there would not have been any need for the Incarnation. Or is that event--the central event in all human history--supposed to have been nothing more than a goodwill visit from God to his creatures?

Bingo. We have a winner.

 

[Josiah]

God Justifies -

Welcome to the Protestant view. See post 671.


Now, I'd add, that God justifying us means that therefore it's not self justifying self. Jesus is the Savior which means that Jesus is the Savior and self is not. So, in this context (Justification, narrow) we are simply on the receiving end. Which is why the Bible stresses that all this is "the free gift of God" and "an inheritance" and that "it is not according to your works lest anyone can boast."

Now, switching gears, changing topics, bringing up an issue not permitted in this thread, YES, of course, once with the divine gift of life/faith/justification/Holy Spirit, a LOT of things come into play! YES, absolutely, LIVING that life is synergistic - directed and empowered by the Holy Spirit (which we now have) and embraced by our faith (which we now have) directing our spiritual life (which we now have). But we all agree on that. The Catholic Church was extremely careful to note that this is NOT at all in dispute, the RCC does NOT at all disagree with Lutherans (or Protestants in general) on this point - the what THEN. The enormous disagreement, the issue the RCC chose to split Christianity over, was and is Justification (in this narrow sense). We don't disagree on what we agree on.

The RCC disagrees with the Lutheran idea presented in post 671. THAT'S apostasy. THAT'S heresy. THAT must be anathematized. I don't know how the Orthodox view that - you've indicated that you agree with Lutherans on THIS point but that you utterly disagree with Lutherans on THIS specific point, so I don't know if you (or Orthodox) agree or disagree on THIS point.

Why does John's baptism of repentance precede the ministry of Christ?

Ask John when you get to heaven.

But John was OLD TESTAMENT.... and his baptism was OLD TESTAMENT, a Jewish ritual. And the LEAST of all Christians is greater than he.

But again, no one on the Planet Earth denies that repentance is mandated. Repentance means be remorseful toward GOD, knowing self has offended GOD and decrying that, knowing that self has violated the wise and normative Law of God, looking to God's mercy because of the Cross of Jesus, and seeking forgiveness. Since the DEAD, unregenerate deny that God even exists and hate God and are enemies of God and are dead in their tresspasses..... since they reject God's wisdom and law (even deny such even exists), since they deny God's mercy, since they deny that Jesus was anything but at most a nice man, since they deny the Cross did anything but kill a man, since they hold there is no God to offended, THEY are not too likely to repent. Feel inner sorrow - sure (your dog can feel that) but that's not repentance.

And again, if self saves self by doing what dead self can't and won't do, then the Savior is self. And Christianity is wrong and a false religion. CHRISTianity is all wrapped up in the proclamation that Jesus is the Savior. If He's not (cuz self is), then Christianity is wrong. IF it's a matter of self realizing their badness, looking to God for strength and empowerment to do better, and growing in goodness - then we should be modern Jews or Muslims or Bhati Hindus because Christianity is wrong.

What does "making straight the road" signify?

All the Old Covenant is preparing the world for the coming of the Savior. It's not a case of denying the Savior. And of course, we live in the New Covenant. The "make straight the road" we are focused on is for His Return and we do that via the Great Commission. But again, our "making straight the road" is not to render Jesus void, irrelevant, meaningless because the Savior is not on the Cross but in the mirror.




- Josiah



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[Arsenios]

No. Our efforts are inconsequential.

Every action YOU take and every word YOU utter are consequential...

Perhaps you were referring to YOUR verbal efforts here???

Our human goal is purely to rebel and take control.

Speaking for yourself?

Even your comment, MCs comment. and Arsenios comment imply the desire to wrestle for control over your own destiny.

I agree that if YOU had made those comments, you would have been desiring to wrest control...

We will never know the mind of God

"We have the Mind of Christ..." Paul's own words...

in whom he chooses to extend his saving grace.

Then you are preaching what you do not know...

That is his decision to make and ours to accept.

So we just blow off the first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

The elect will hear God's voice and will be justified by the blood of the Lamb.

A lot of people hear voices...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

If human actions were inconsequential then why is sin wicked and why is it punished while goodness is praised and sometimes rewarded by God? Can anybody really believe that human actions are inconsequential after coming to know that God became a man to save men from their [sinful] actions? It is madness to think that God would become a man and die because of "mankind's inconsequential actions".

 

[Arsenios]

Welcome to the Protestant view.

.

The early Church gave you the Scripture telling us that it is God Who Justifies...
It is the understanding of the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church...
If you believe it, you are agreeing with Christ...

Now, I'd add, that God justifying us means that therefore it's not self justifying self. Jesus is the Savior which means that Jesus is the Savior and self is not. So, in this context (Justification, narrow) we are simply on the receiving end. Which is why the Bible stresses that all this is "the free gift of God" and "an inheritance" and that "it is not according to your works lest anyone can boast."

Which addendum is, to Orthodox hearing, blathersome...
Not to mention inaccurate, because it implies that God Justifies the unrepentant...
The Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord has two parties...
God and mankind...
Repentance is our part...
The Kingdom of Heaven is His...

Once with the divine gift of life/faith/justification/Holy Spirit

Are you claiming possession of these?

You've indicated that you agree with Lutherans on THIS point
but
that you utterly disagree with Lutherans on THIS specific point,
so I don't know if you (or Orthodox) agree or disagree on THIS point.

You are looking in the right Direction...
You are not seeing the Truth of that Direction...

Ask John when you get to heaven.

It is written in all the Gospels FOR US in order FOR US to enter the Kingdom of Heaven while on this earth...

But John was OLD TESTAMENT.... and his baptism was OLD TESTAMENT, a Jewish ritual. And the LEAST of all Christians is greater than he.

Then why does it lead into Christ's ministry...?
This is written for US, not for OT believers...

Repentance means be remorseful toward GOD, knowing self has offended GOD and decrying that, knowing that self has violated the wise and normative Law of God, looking to God's mercy because of the Cross of Jesus, and seeking forgiveness.... [It is NOT] inner sorrow - sure (your dog can feel that) but that's not repentance.

And again, if self saves self

Again incinerating the strawman of your own mind's creation...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah agrees that God justifies but what does he think "justifies" means? Is he agreeing that God makes a man righteous? Really righteous and not simply 'declares' an unrighteous person to be righteous - like some doctors declare an insane person to be sane and then the following week the insane person, having been returned to the community, in a psychotic state murders his parents and shoots himself too?

 

[MennoSota]

Every action YOU take and every word YOU utter are consequential...

Perhaps you were referring to YOUR verbal efforts here???



Speaking for yourself?



I agree that if YOU had made those comments, you would have been desiring to wrest control...



"We have the Mind of Christ..." Paul's own words...



Then you are preaching what you do not know...



So we just blow off the first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?



A lot of people hear voices...

Arsenios

God justifies us because he chooses to. What you and I do has no effect on God's choice of justifying us.

 

[MennoSota]

If human actions were inconsequential then why is sin wicked and why is it punished while goodness is praised and sometimes rewarded by God? Can anybody really believe that human actions are inconsequential after coming to know that God became a man to save men from their [sinful] actions? It is madness to think that God would become a man and die because of "mankind's inconsequential actions".

Apart from Christ, no action is good.
Sin is wicked because God set the standard.
God says that all fall short. All are damned by sin.
There is no praise for goodness except for Christ and his goodness.
Why do you imagine yourself to be good? What standard of measurement are you using?

 

[Josiah]

.

The early Church gave you the Scripture telling us that it is God Who Justifies...

Well.... I believe God did. But we agree on the point: It is GOD who justifies (therefore, the dead self does not). It is Jesus who is the Savior (thus self isn't). It is the Holy Spirit who GIVES life (not self). Welcome to Protestantism.

Repentance is our part...

Who is "our?" If "our" means you and me - Christians, the justified, with life and faith, with the Holy Spirit - then I agree. Lutherans stress that our whole life as a Christian is one of repentance.

But, IF you mean not "us" but the one who is DEAD, the one who has no faith, has no Holy Spirit... the one who DENIES that God even exists, who REJECTS the Law and wisdom of God, who is NOT contrite toward some diety they reject even exist, the one who does NOT look to the mercy of God because they deny there even is a God and deny this non-entity has mercy or that they need it, the one who is an "ENEMY" of God, the one the Scriptures says CANNOT even say "Jesus is Lord" in more than a chant denied.... IF you mean THAT one repents, then I disagree. Just people repenting to a God they deny even exists. And there's no need for the Holy Spirit to GIVE anything, is there since self gives self all self needs by performing the good work of repenting. And of course, then God doesn't "justify" anything or anyone, self does by that one repenting to a God whom they reject exists and who is neither wise or merciful looking to the Christ they reject and repudiate.


As I noted, "repentance" is not something the DEAD can (or will) do. Thus it cannot be what saves self (and makes Jesus irrelevant). Now, does repentance accompany Justification? ABSOLUTELY! It's just not the cause, that's where we disagree. I think Jesus is the Savior. I think the Holy Spirit is the giver of life.


Now, as I've stressed too many times, Lutherans believe there is much mystery here and we don't pretend to know how God GIVES all this in the case of individuals. Only that any speculation that denies that Jesus is the Savior and that the Holy Spirit gives life MUST be wrong since it clearly contradricts Scripture and destroys Christianity. I'm reminded of a Baptist preacher I heard once.... talking about the Altar Call and "deciding for Christ." He STRESSED the importance of such, but added (and I found this interesting) that IF you decide for Christ.... IF you feel compelled to "come on down".... IF your heart is stirred.... THEN YOU ALREADY ARE SAVED, you already have the Holy Spirit, you already have faith, you already are justified! The "deciding" thus is an act of faith, not the cause of faith. Ah. But he was a Protestant (just not Lutheran).




See post 671. Maybe you'll do what MoreCoffee refuses to do. Read it and then clearly indicate what statements in it are clearly apostasy, bold heresy, mandating anathema. You say you "utterly disagree" with it (so it would be helpful to know WHAT in it) and that you "agree with it" (so it might be nice to know WHAT in it you agree with). Just copy the post. Clearly indicate the exact words that are apostasy, heresy, mandating anathemas. Unless you disagree with the RCC on this. And remember, the RCC has never said, "YES! But there is more that should be said, you know, what Lutherans too say." No, it said THIS is heresy - mandating anathemas. I don't know the Orthodox view because you say you agree BUT you utterly disagree with 671.



- Josiah



.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

But again, no one on the Planet Earth denies that repentance is mandated. Repentance means be remorseful toward GOD, knowing self has offended GOD and decrying that, knowing that self has violated the wise and normative Law of God, looking to God's mercy because of the Cross of Jesus, and seeking forgiveness. Since the DEAD, unregenerate deny that God even exists and hate God and are enemies of God and are dead in their trespasses..... since they reject God's wisdom and law (even deny such even exists), since they deny God's mercy, since they deny that Jesus was anything but at most a nice man, since they deny the Cross did anything but kill a man, since they hold there is no God to offended, THEY are not too likely to repent. Feel inner sorrow - sure (your dog can feel that) but that's not repentance.

What we're left with, then, is that what's is mandated is not possible. And such a thing is not plausible. In obedience to the word of God which we receive, we follow the mandate. Being given His grace, we are no longer considered "enemies" or "haters of God", but have been adopted by him and are willing to accept the wisdom of God. It's been said that "repentance is what God does" (which sounds neat - but really doesn't satisfy as an explanation), but what is the evidence of it? You've said part of it:

Repentance means be remorseful toward GOD, knowing self has offended GOD and decrying that, knowing that self has violated the wise and normative Law of God, looking to God's mercy because of the Cross of Jesus, and seeking forgiveness.​

But is this all of it? No. A repentant life must be shown in our works - not a "works righteousness", but the works that flow from faith. Are we so wrapped in what we don't do - self saving self - that our responsibility is nullified? That is a concept I see nowhere in scripture.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

God justifies us because he chooses to...

And those he doesn't because he chooses not to. Like I said, a Godly coin-flip

 

[MennoSota]

And those he doesn't because he chooses not to. Like I said, a Godly coin-flip

No coin flip. That cheapens our God to random action.
God tells us that we were chosen before the foundation of the world. This means God has always known and he is acting out his will accordingly.

 

[Andrew]

No coin flip. That cheapens our God to random action.
God tells us that we were chosen before the foundation of the world. This means God has always known and he is acting out his will accordingly.

Is that double predestination?
God made people just for hell and others just for heaven?

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

What we're left with, then, is that what's is mandated is not possible. And such a thing is not plausible. In obedience to the word of God which we receive, we follow the mandate. Being given His grace, we are no longer considered "enemies" or "haters of God", but have been adopted by him and are willing to accept the wisdom of God. It's been said that "repentance is what God does" (which sounds neat - but really doesn't satisfy as an explanation), but what is the evidence of it? You've said part of it:

Repentance means be remorseful toward GOD, knowing self has offended GOD and decrying that, knowing that self has violated the wise and normative Law of God, looking to God's mercy because of the Cross of Jesus, and seeking forgiveness.​

But is this all of it? No. A repentant life must be shown in our works - not a "works righteousness", but the works that flow from faith. Are we so wrapped in what we don't do - self saving self - that our responsibility is nullified? That is a concept I see nowhere in scripture.

ImaginaryDay2, you're right to say that the definition provided by Josiah is not complete. It appears to be an off the cuff partial explanation of the meaning of repentance. Wikipedia says

In Biblical Hebrew, the idea of repentance is represented by two verbs: שוב shuv (to return) and נחם nacham (to feel sorrow). In the New Testament, the word translated as 'repentance' is the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", which is a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing). In this compound word, the preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different'; so that the whole compound means: 'to think differently after'. Metanoia is therefore primarily an after-thought, different from the former thought; a change of mind and change of conduct, "change of mind and heart", or, "change of consciousness".
metanoia:

change of mind, repentance
Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Short Definition: repentance, a change of mind
Definition: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.​

The idea is to change one's way of thinking about one's past actions and to change one's way of life as a result.


As the scriptures say For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation, a repentance which bringeth no regret: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (2Corinthians 7:10)

 

[Josiah]

What we're left with, then, is that what's is mandated is not possible.

I disagree. What we are left with is not causative. If it is, then Jesus isn't the Savior, is He? And the Holy Spirit isn't the Giver of Life, is He? And what we have is works righteousness.... salvation is achieved by the Dead doing what would be absurd and impossible for the dead to do.

It is undeniable that repentance accompanies Justification.... indeed, perhaps we might even say that the one without repentance is without justification. But association does not mandate causation. This association does not render Christianity wrong and Jesus not the Savior; it does not render the Incarnation and Cross and Empty Tomb void and meaningless because dead self saves self by repenting.

In obedience to the word of God which we receive, we follow the mandate.

As as asked above, who is we?

Being given His grace, we are no longer considered "enemies" or "haters of God", but have been adopted by him and are willing to accept the wisdom of God.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Just as Luther stressed so powerfully, just as I have stated over and over in this thread. A point that the Catholic Church and Luther fully agreed upon.

You've said part of it: "Repentance means be remorseful toward GOD, knowing self has offended GOD and decrying that, knowing that self has violated the wise and normative Law of God, looking to God's mercy because of the Cross of Jesus, and seeking forgiveness." A repentant life must be shown in our works - not a "works righteousness", but the works that flow from faith.

Everyone (known to me) agrees with that. I do. Luther did. The RCC in the 16th Century did. As far as I know, all God's children agree with that. And thanks for making it more complete than I previously did, that's important. But as I said, the RCC was extremely careful to say that it did NOT (at all) disagree with Luther or Lutherans on what is true WITH spiritual life, WITH faith, WITH the Holy Spirit - as a Christian, as one Justified. The disagreement, it stressed, is elsewhere. And please keep in mind, the RCC did NOT (N.O.T.) states, "Yes, everything the Lutherans say about Justification is correct, but there is more to our relationship with God, a lot of things in which we are in full agreement with the Lutherans." No. It stated that what Lutherans say about Justification (narrow) is apostasy, heresy, to be anathematized - the issue was NEVER that Lutherans say too little, the issue was what they DO say in the singular, narrow issue of Justification. And what is that? I tried to summerize in post 671 (complete with the Scriptures I found quoted in my Lutheran theology books and in the Confessions - that's where I got them), THAT was the heresy (not that Lutherans forgot something ELSE - which of course, they did NOT, they STRESSED it as much as the RCC, it's just that the RCC agreed with Lutherans on that, but NOT on the Justification part).



A blessed Pentecost to you and yours.


- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

Is that double predestination?
God made people just for hell and others just for heaven?

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No.
God made Adam and Eve for His glory. Man rebelled against God.
All mankind deserves judgment by a just God. But, God chose to redeem some anyway.
The whole double predestination argument seems to come from people who want to work their way into God's favor rather than accept that God is Sovereign and God alone chooses to grant pardon to sinners.