COMMUNION: Does "is" mean "is?" Catholic, Lutheran, Evangelical

[Andrew]

Do you think Jesus, being Jewish, was saying "drink real blood" and "eat human flesh" as reality? How would his Jewish followers reacted if they thought he was speaking of real flesh and blood rather than symbolic? I'll tell you...they would have rejected his anti-Jewish statement and his utter disrespect for Yahweh's laws immediately on the spot. The fact they did not reject him tells me that Jesus was clearly being symbolic.

Also according to Strong's, Jews in the OT times defined 'death' as that of an empty stomach, weak and starving, striving to survive (I remember this quite clearly in my Strong's studies a few years back)... It must have been 'symbolic' of what 'we' assume death to be, im guessing that actual fleshly death to them was sheol (spelling?) or 'hell' (the Jews I know personally consider sheol a mystery... life after death that is)... Christ promises everlasting life to the believer but 'hell' for the unbeliever. That makes sense if you get where I am going with this... anyway, the BREAD feeds us, gives us life! and that my friends is symbolic of HIS flesh that gives life!
Remember that those who deny and cannot confess as Peter the 'rock' confessed, but instead confess that Christ Jesus Son of God did not come in the FLESH -reside in Hell.
Point being, we are gentiles adopted into the new creation covenant and although we may struggle sometimes because we don't understand ancient Jewish customs and beliefs does not mean that we are ignorant, I believe the apostles knew this and taught well in their letters for us gentiles to believe even in these end times... amazing.
Strong in faith are they who believe without seeing Christ face to face! That we are! and for the record indeed the bible is engulfed in symbology, if the word 'symbolic' was to be used in every symbolic instance we would probably get mighty frustrated with it... especially now a days concerning the book revelation which is almost entirely symbolic to the reader.

 

[Lamb]

Do you think Jesus, being Jewish, was saying "drink real blood" and "eat human flesh" as reality? How would his Jewish followers reacted if they thought he was speaking of real flesh and blood rather than symbolic? I'll tell you...they would have rejected his anti-Jewish statement and his utter disrespect for Yahweh's laws immediately on the spot. The fact they did not reject him tells me that Jesus was clearly being symbolic.

Do you know why the Jews could not drink real blood? It is life. Jesus is life! Think on that for a bit.

 

[MennoSota]

Do you know why the Jews could not drink real blood? It is life. Jesus is life! Think on that for a bit.

In the seder meal (the meal Jesus was partaking of at Passover) the wine symbolized 4 things about the Lambs blood.
1) I will take you out...
2) I will save you...
3) I will redeem you...
4) I will take you as a nation...
Jesus changed the meaning of the seder meal for Passover and the wine symbolized what Jesus, the Lamb of God, was going to do for his people.
In no way, shape or form was he being literal about his body or blood. The RC, EO and LC miss this because of their ignorance regarding the seder meal. Centuries of anti-Semitism resulted in a misguided understanding of the last supper so that grace has been exchanged for works.
https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...What-is-the-significance-of-the-four-cups.htm

 

[Lamb]

In the seder meal (the meal Jesus was partaking of at Passover) the wine symbolized 4 things about the Lambs blood.
1) I will take you out...
2) I will save you...
3) I will redeem you...
4) I will take you as a nation...
Jesus changed the meaning of the seder meal for Passover and the wine symbolized what Jesus, the Lamb of God, was going to do for his people.
In no way, shape or form was he being literal about his body or blood. The RC, EO and LC miss this because of their ignorance regarding the seder meal. Centuries of anti-Semitism resulted in a misguided understanding of the last supper so that grace has been exchanged for works.
https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...What-is-the-significance-of-the-four-cups.htm

This is my body... Jesus doesn't say This symbolizes my body.

 

[MennoSota]

This is my body... Jesus doesn't say This symbolizes my body.

He didn't need to. He was directing the seder meal. Everyone in the room knew the symbolism of Passover (no one took the meal as a real, literal, Passover taking place). Everyone knew he was being symbolic and changing the seder meal. No one took it as literal. Only the pagans thought the followers of Jesus were cannibals, but the early church explained it and then pagans came to see it wasn't his actual body and blood. No Jews ever conceived of such literalism. They understood the connection to the seder meal.

 

[Arsenios]

It can only be symbolic,
we know what 'truth' is...

Then you know that Truth is the Person of Jesus Christ...

"I AM the Truth, the Way, and the Light..." yes?

The Consecrated Bread IS the Body of Christ... The Whole Body in any small particle of it...
By saying that it only CAN BE symbolic, you are right but only in fallen human terms...
That Consecration is not a fallen human event, my brother...
It is Consecrated by Christ Himself in Spirit and in Truth...
Reducing this Mystery to one's own puny and fallen intellect and experience trivializes the very Word of our Lord...

When you do something in 'remembrance of' you are doing it symbolically and traditionally to remember them by...

Remembrance is participation by imitation of the Action of our Lord...
In this we partake of the dread Sacrifice...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Think on that for a bit.

I love your optimism!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

He didn't need to.

Some of us think He was speaking the Truth...
"Take, Eat, This IS My Body..."
Others think He meant something else...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Then you know that Truth is the Person of Jesus Christ...

"I AM the Truth, the Way, and the Light..." yes?

The Consecrated Bread IS the Body of Christ... The Whole Body in any small particle of it...
By saying that it only CAN BE symbolic, you are right but only in fallen human terms...
That Consecration is not a fallen human event, my brother...
It is Consecrated by Christ Himself in Spirit and in Truth...
Reducing this Mystery to one's own puny and fallen intellect and experience trivializes the very Word of our Lord...



Remembrance is participation by imitation of the Action of our Lord...
In this we partake of the dread Sacrifice...

Arsenios

Of course Jesus is the Truth I will never deny that. Jesus told his disciples to take the bread and eat, and to take the wine and drink, and they did so... in revelation John says to the church of Laodicea that the lord will sup with them also. I believe its something bigger than just attending mass and taking the wafer and sip of wine.
Jesus told his disciples not us and I didnt read where any apostle said "be baptised all of you AND break bread AND drink wine for the remission of sin"
The Spirit IS what matters here, im not against any churchs beliefs and traditions, I just find all lot of references and symbology in the bible as does all denomination btw, I am joined to Christ and I just cannot agree with every denomination, it would be impossible and contradicting to do so, yet WE are the body of Christ.

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

Some of us think He was speaking the Truth...
"Take, Eat, This IS My Body..."
Others think He meant something else...

Arsenios

Others fail to pay attention to the seder meal that Jesus was leading. If you take your gentile colored glasses off and understand Jewish culture (as I clearly explained) you will see your error.

 

[Andrew]

Others fail to pay attention to the seder meal that Jesus was leading. If you take your gentile colored glasses off and understand Jewish culture (as I clearly explained) you will see your error.

Exactly, no matter your denomination we adhere to we can always find room to think for ourselves in regards to what certain scripture represents. We are gentiles and it is thus impossible to not get lost in ancient jewish translation (according of course to their culture and customs) as many have no clue to why Jesus himself came to be baptised in the first place (for remission only? For what sins?). Jesus did this because it was the custom for Jews to do so before becoming a rabbi/teacher. If the Bible had to explain everything for the gentile it would simply get in the way of the true absolute message which is free for all. We accept -based on faith -even for the gentile.. but to the Jew first.
Denominationalism claims to know it all but we all strive to find the perfect church... at least I do (perfect in all its teachings).
If anyone does not believe that symbology is something to consider I ask they (and not someone else) translate a literal version of the book of Revelation.
That book is a blessing when read in the church for a reason.



Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[Albion]

Exactly

No, not exactly. The Gospel accounts absolutely DO NOT establish that the Last Supper was a Passover meal. We know that Our Lord had his people prepare for such, but the description given of the meal AS IT THEN DEVELOPED does not show it to have been one. Quite the opposite, in fact. This is not surprising, since Christ quite clearly was intentionally changing something ("This is My Body...,", etc. Remember?)

 

[Josiah]

Exactly, no matter your denomination we adhere to we can always find room to think for ourselves in regards to what certain scripture represents.

Respectfully, I mostly disagree. MY approach is 1) The words on the page mean what they say unless it is clear from the context that something different is meant. Now, of course, if the entire context is symbolic (such as the Book of Revelation) that's one thing, but to say "all this is literal - except for this one word that I don't like, IT must be symbolic but no words before it or after it" - that I'd reject. 2) Since God gave Scripture to the WHOLE CHURCH (not to any individual or denomination) and since God promised the guiding of the Holy Spirit to the WHOLE CHURCH (not to any individual person or denomination), I tend to look to the historic, ecumenical consensus (if such clearly exists). Such CAN be wrong but the "burden" would lie with those rejecting the universal consensus of all Christians for centuries. For this thread, Jesus and Paul seem to have carefully said "IS." THIS (pointing to the loaf and cup).... IS (not "is not" or "represents" or "symbolizes" or "undergoing an alchemic transubstantiation, changing from one reality to an entirely different one" but "IS")... My Body.... MY Blood..... bread...... wine....." Now, for 1500 years, every Christian on the planet Earth accepted that "as is" while leaving alone all the physics questions of "HOW" and such. It's called Real Presence. It is the most direct and obvious meaning, it just takes the words "at face value" and it is the UNIVERSAL (without exception!) understanding of every single Christian from the earliest days of the Early church until a man named Zwingli in the 16th Century proclaimed, "But that just CANNOT be true!" Well.... just because our puny brains can't wrap themselves around it doesn't make it false. But in any case, IMO, the "burden" lies with Zwingli - and he completely, totally fails - his only point is "this doesn't fit with MY personal (wrong) understanding of physics so ERGO it MUST be wrong." Of course, his heretical views concerning the Two Natures of Christ played into this too (he also rejected 1500 years - and stated doctrine and clear Scripture - concerning that, too).




- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

No, not exactly. The Gospel accounts absolutely DO NOT establish that the Last Supper was a Passover meal. We know that Our Lord had his people prepare for such, but the description given of the meal AS IT THEN DEVELOPED does not show it to have been one. Quite the opposite, in fact. This is not surprising, since Christ quite clearly was intentionally changing something ("This is My Body...,", etc. Remember?)

LOL, A room full of Jews at the Passover and you think it wasn't a seder meal. The only reason for you to reject such an obvious thing is that it destroys your gentile/pagan narrative that requires a literal interpretation rather than Jewish symbolism.

 

[Andrew]

Respectfully, I mostly disagree. MY approach is 1) The words on the page mean what they say unless it is clear from the context that something different is meant. Now, of course, if the entire context is symbolic (such as the Book of Revelation) that's one thing, but to say "all this is literal - except for this one word that I don't like, IT must be symbolic but no words before it or after it" - that I'd reject. 2) Since God gave Scripture to the WHOLE CHURCH (not to any individual or denomination) and since God promised the guiding of the Holy Spirit to the WHOLE CHURCH (not to any individual person or denomination), I tend to look to the historic, ecumenical consensus (if such clearly exists). Such CAN be wrong but the "burden" would lie with those rejecting the universal consensus of all Christians for centuries. For this thread, Jesus and Paul seem to have carefully said "IS." THIS (pointing to the loaf and cup).... IS (not "is not" or "represents" or "symbolizes" or "undergoing an alchemic transubstantiation, changing from one reality to an entirely different one" but "IS")... My Body.... MY Blood..... bread...... wine....." Now, for 1500 years, every Christian on the planet Earth accepted that "as is" while leaving alone all the physics questions of "HOW" and such. It's called Real Presence. It is the most direct and obvious meaning, it just takes the words "at face value" and it is the UNIVERSAL (without exception!) understanding of every single Christian from the earliest days of the Early church until a man named Zwingli in the 16th Century proclaimed, "But that just CANNOT be true!" Well.... just because our puny brains can't wrap themselves around it doesn't make it false. But in any case, IMO, the "burden" lies with Zwingli - and he completely, totally fails - his only point is "this doesn't fit with MY personal (wrong) understanding of physics so ERGO it MUST be wrong." Of course, his heretical views concerning the Two Natures of Christ played into this too (he also rejected 1500 years - and stated doctrine and clear Scripture - concerning that, too).




- Josiah

The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:41-71
________

Jesus is the bread of life. This is true, but he is not merely bread, he is the bread of life!

Drink his blood, these are both symbolic of receiving HIM and believing on him.
His blood is IN him AND also in the one who had sent him, therefore receiving HIS blood that is in HIM and his FATHER -IS receiving and accepting the faith of Jesus.
The bread is representing LIFE and the blood represents LIFE and NOT just bread and wine that you can pick up at the grocery store.
No one is going to convince me that Jesus is bread and wine alone, Jesus is FLESH and BLOOD of the royal lifeline in which we believe in, the life the truth and the way.
If it's in your practice of belief because its in your denomination then be it so. I have nothing against it, I encourage it I truly do, but as for me I honestly will feel no lack of faith in Christ if I reject to ritually eat bread and drink wine as a means to publicly expound my faith in my Lord and Savior.

 

[Josiah]

The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:41-71
________

Jesus is the bread of life. This is true, but he is not merely bread, he is the bread of life!

Drink his blood, these are both symbolic of receiving HIM and believing on him.
His blood is IN him AND also in the one who had sent him, therefore receiving HIS blood that is in HIM and his FATHER -IS receiving and accepting the faith of Jesus.
The bread is representing LIFE and the blood represents LIFE and NOT just bread and wine that you can pick up at the grocery store.
No one is going to convince me that Jesus is bread and wine alone, Jesus is FLESH and BLOOD of the royal lifeline in which we believe in, the life the truth and the way.
If it's in your practice of belief because its in your denomination then be it so. I have nothing against it, I encourage it I truly do, but as for me I honestly will feel no lack of faith in Christ if I reject to ritually eat bread and drink wine as a means to publicly expound my faith in my Lord and Savior.

1. John 6 has nothing to do with the Eucharist. It didn't even exist yet - and wouldn't for years.

2. Yes, I agree, Jesus IS the Bread and life. IS. Just as the Eucharist IS the Body, Blood, bread and wine. I agree with you, the meaning of is is is. Jesus IS with the "THIS".

3. See the opening post.

 

[Andrew]

1. John 6 has nothing to do with the Eucharist. It didn't even exist yet - and wouldn't for years.

2. Yes, I agree, Jesus IS the Bread and life. IS. Just as the Eucharist IS the Body, Blood, bread and wine. I agree with you, the meaning of is is is. Jesus IS with the "THIS".

3. See the opening post.

So Jesus can speak in parables but not metaphors? He is the bread of life come down from Heaven, he is explaining this to Jews... how is this meaning fixated on actual bread and wine?

 

[Josiah]

So Jesus can speak in parables but not metaphors? He is the bread of life come down from Heaven, he is explaining this to Jews... how is this meaning fixated on actual bread and wine?

Certainly Jesus can speak metaphorically. However, I'd be careful saying that every word in the text is literal EXCEPT for just ONE word that is metaphoric in the middle of it all because taking that word literally conflicts with my (wrong) view of physics."

Since "Real Presence" simply accepts what Jesus said and Paul penned (the most obvious "take"), and since it agrees with EVERY Christian on the Planet Earth for over 1500 years until ONE person with the last name of Zwingli proclaimed, "But that CANNOT be true!" then I think the the "burden of proof" lies with Zwingli. And he utterly fails to show why ALL THE WORDS are literally true except for "is" - and that's because it conflicts with his own personal medieval (and wrong) view of physics. Why would Zwingli SUDDENLY - out of the clear blue - be right and EVERYONE for 1500 years wrong - because this one man's medieval, prescience view of physics and his heretical view of the Two Natures of Christ made what Jesus said and Paul wrote "wrong?" "CANNOT be true?" Zwingli never said. No one since him has.



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

The "is" is symbolic of Jesus atoning death, just as the seder meal is symbolic of the Passover lamb, which atoned for Israel while God judged all others for whom the blood did not exist.
The parallels between the Passover, seder meal, and Jesus words cannot be dismissed without openly choosing ignorance over contextual accuracy.

 

[Andrew]

Certainly Jesus can speak metaphorically. However, I'd be careful saying that every word in the text is literal EXCEPT for just ONE word that is metaphoric in the middle of it all because taking that word literally conflicts with my (wrong) view of physics."

Since "Real Presence" simply accepts what Jesus said and Paul penned (the most obvious "take"), and since it agrees with EVERY Christian on the Planet Earth for over 1500 years until ONE person with the last name of Zwingli proclaimed, "But that CANNOT be true!" then I think the the "burden of proof" lies with Zwingli. And he utterly fails to show why ALL THE WORDS are literally true except for "is" - and that's because it conflicts with his own personal medieval (and wrong) view of physics. Why would Zwingli SUDDENLY - out of the clear blue - be right and EVERYONE for 1500 years wrong - because this one man's medieval, prescience view of physics and his heretical view of the Two Natures of Christ made what Jesus said and Paul wrote "wrong?" "CANNOT be true?" Zwingli never said. No one since him has.



- Josiah

So you say he is speaking metaphorically or 'could be' in this case (the metaphoric word being 'bread')?
The road is sharp and narrow and just because so many Christians believe that Jesus is made of bread and wine and have believed it for 1500 years does not mean that I should just be apart of it 100 percent.
Jesus said to take up your cross, do you literally pick up a wooden cross and carry it? Or is that a metaphor? Did Jesus turn Peter into a literal rock because he spoke it so? Or is that a metaphor? Do churches literally baptise in fire? Of course not.
Please note that I have no agenda to change your mind in belief, I don't assume any believer to be unjust, my opinions are completely independent and I trust in my God of life giving waters and forgiveness for all as ones faith in Christ Jesus defeats any one mans personal opinion.


We are all the body of Christ so are we all eating eachother now too? The bread comes from Heaven not at walmart, Jesus and his words are the bread of life come down to us from Heaven to receive.