Justification

[Arsenios]

My friend at church takes this verse way out of context I believe. He believes that when you sin you are crucifying Christ on the cross, he is certain of this and it seems to terrify him. From what I gather in this verse is that we ARE justified in our humbleness, that is -that we are strictly under grace and whatever works we assume, we are yet humble before the Lord and are under his wing so to speak, nothing can weigh down the light yoke he has given to us as a gift. We are indeed rich in our humbleness and Thank GOD almighty for this grace he allots us. For it is impossible for us to tastes the fruits of Grace and Truth while remaining ignorant to it at the same time. As someone pointed out to me months ago, we are not walking a tight rope that plunges us into darkness if we slip. This how Christ saves us from hell, let our good works be good but be humble in the fact that our wrong deeds are covered in his sacrifice

I love the kindness you display in this understanding...

The key to the text is the term "enlightened" - It means Baptism...

And Lot's wife, who upon looking back - And this means returning to one's previous ways of living - was turned into a pillar of salt...

So that the meaning is that once God sets you on the path of Salvation, there is no turning back, and if we do turn back, we are only fit for burning with the rest of the stubble... And we cannot start over, doing repentance unto Enlightenment, eg Baptism, which washes away all our former sins, because we have already done that... Instead it means that we must undergo repentance unto forgiveness, and that repentance will be arduous if we choose to return to our sinful way of life...

Notice it does not mean "if we ever should sin", for sins are wounds from the struggle we have taken on in Christ, and while we should win most of those battles, we are up against a treacherous and deceitful and experienced enemy who deceived Adam through Eve... We must wash each other's feet, for we who are not of the earth do walk upon the earth... But the bottom line is that after Baptism, you must repent for the sins you commit, and do not get a pass on them by the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... You are already regenerated... You can overcome sins, and Christ not only supports you in this endeavor in Him, He will forgive you and heal your infirmities that led you in your weakness to commit the sins you turned back to committing...

And the point of that was that we CAN turn back to sin... And we are NOT guaranteed Salvation if we do so... We are to endure and persevere in repentance to the end, to our last breath... After which theere is no more repentance possible for us to do...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

I love the kindness you displayin this understanding...
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:28
http://goo.gl/kNQdzo
The key to the text is the term "enlightened" - It means Baptism...

And Lot's wife, who upon looking back - And this means returning to one's previous ways of living - was turned into a pillar of salt...

So that the meaning is that once God sets you on the path of Salvation, there is no turning back, and if we do turn back, we are only fit for burning with the rest of the stubble... And we cannot start over, doing repentance unto Enlightenment, eg Baptism, which washes away all our former sins, because we have already done that... Instead it means that we must undergo repentance unto forgiveness, and that repentance will be arduous if we choose to return to our sinful way of life...

Notice it does not mean "if we ever should sin", for sins are wounds from the struggle we have taken on in Christ, and while we should win most of those battles, we are up against a treacherous and deceitful and experienced enemy who deceived Adam through Eve... We must wash each other's feet, for we who are not of the earth do walk upon the earth... But the bottom line is that after Baptism, you must repent for the sins you commit, and do not get a pass on them by the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... You are already regenerated... You can overcome sins, and Christ not only supports you in this endeavor in Him, He will forgive you and heal your infirmities that led you in your weakness to commit the sins you turned back to committing...

And the point of that was that we CAN turn back to sin... And we are NOT guaranteed Salvation if we do so... We are to endure and persevere in repentance to the end, to our last breath... After which theere is no more repentance possible for us to do...

Arsenios

I am called to entertain angels, that means that whomever I come across I give them my clothes so to speak.
As for works, that's between me and my maker but I am not out to please man.
You cannot walk into any church (denomination) and be saved, this goes for every single one of us unto the rest of the world, its simply why I object to smug annotations online although I agree with everyone's perspective... both sides are correct and agree but they both struggle with accepting it. No one is saying works alone saves, we must agree that FAITH is not so simple to write out... it's all about 'enlightenment' indeed for the believer and definitely not up to any other man to 'accept' and be 'rewarded by'.
As president Lincoln once said "Be excellent to each other" -bill and ted

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[Andrew]

I love the kindness you displayin this understanding...

The key to the text is the term "enlightened" - It means Baptism...

And Lot's wife, who upon looking back - And this means returning to one's previous ways of living - was turned into a pillar of salt...

So that the meaning is that once God sets you on the path of Salvation, there is no turning back, and if we do turn back, we are only fit for burning with the rest of the stubble... And we cannot start over, doing repentance unto Enlightenment, eg Baptism, which washes away all our former sins, because we have already done that... Instead it means that we must undergo repentance unto forgiveness, and that repentance will be arduous if we choose to return to our sinful way of life...

Notice it does not mean "if we ever should sin", for sins are wounds from the struggle we have taken on in Christ, and while we should win most of those battles, we are up against a treacherous and deceitful and experienced enemy who deceived Adam through Eve... We must wash each other's feet, for we who are not of the earth do walk upon the earth... But the bottom line is that after Baptism, you must repent for the sins you commit, and do not get a pass on them by the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration... You are already regenerated... You can overcome sins, and Christ not only supports you in this endeavor in Him, He will forgive you and heal your infirmities that led you in your weakness to commit the sins you turned back to committing...

And the point of that was that we CAN turn back to sin... And we are NOT guaranteed Salvation if we do so... We are to endure and persevere in repentance to the end, to our last breath... After which theere is no more repentance possible for us to do...

Arsenios

May I add that I love my brethren but sin is inescapable, we sin 7 times a day and that's not including what God deems unacceptable in our modern world. We are wretched men and our deeds are as filthy rags (thanks to Menno for reminding us this lol)
But I accept it, I fall short as we all do and by God we do not want 'fair'... Lord we thank you for YOUR atonement lest we brag! So indeed, we are but humble servants but our deeds are judged by God and have nothing to do with 'man pleasing' (works)... keep your works between you and God like he demanded, love thy neighbor, be angry and sin not, keep his commandments and love not the lust and iniquity of the world. Simple really.

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[Arsenios]

May I add that I love my brethren but sin is inescapable, we sin 7 times a day and that's not including what God deems unacceptable in our modern world. We are wretched men and our deeds are as filthy rags (thanks to Menno for reminding us this lol)

You make compelling the case for our profound need of an ongoing life of vigilance against sin...
And even moreso...
For our profound need to be ever-confessing and ever-repenting from sin as well!

You are my hero!

The defense rests!

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

.

 

[Andrew]

You make compelling the case for our profound need of an ongoing life of vigilance against sin...
And even moreso...
For our profound need to be ever-confessing and ever-repenting from sin as well!

You are my hero!

The defense rests!

Arsenios

You either put on the new adam (Christ) or you stay with the old adam (rebellion)
You either continue unto certain death and work by the sweat of your brow continuing in works or you rest in our Lords sabbath in Christ and accept his works as your rest.
Both are directed and defined and tried in fire for strengthening your faith, none is left behind

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[popsthebuilder]

It has become clear, from the cut and paste of Rome, that Rome adds works as the means of maintaining faith and being justified. Rome misconstrues grace and forces merit upon the believer. Any thinking person can see that they are mirroring the Judaisers whom Paul condemned in Galatians.

Why does it seem like you don't get that if works prove one's faith to be true, that works contrary to the law of the Spirit would prove one to be unfaithful or an unbeliever?



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[MoreCoffee]

Why does it seem like you don't get that if works prove one's faith to be true, that works contrary to the law of the Spirit would prove one to be unfaithful or an unbeliever?
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It ought to be obvious that the way a person lives speaks more clearly about his/her motives than the words they speak. The current and the previous Presidents of the USA (Donald Trump and Barack Obama) both profess to be Protestant Christians but does the way that they live support the claim?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God,
and the Powers of the Age to come,
If they should fall away...

So much for your "once and for all"...

Arsenios

Sometimes a person's beloved theology makes seeing what the holy scriptures say close to impossible.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let's not get into facts, now...

Facts help but they can never teach wisdom. The facts need discernment and compassion and several other things before they can truly inform and increase wisdom. Let us pray that such will be mixed with the facts in the minds and hearts of at least some who read here.

 

[Lamb]

The fact of the matter is that Justification is always Jesus'. God is ever holy. God is ever pure. We are covered by that because Jesus went to the cross to redeem us.

 

[Albion]

Thank-you...

So was the EOC a party to these early debates?

No. I have already explained that point.

Or were we simply being used by Reformation apologists to bolster their standing in the debates?

That's a strange speculation IMO. You yourself say that the EO is the original church, so why would Luther, the greatest Bible scholar of his time, not know that the RCC had departed in many ways from the consensus of the early church, all the while claiming that its innovations were Apostolic?

Because when I read the letters some time back, I had the feeling that the Lutherans contacted the Patriarch for the purpose of persuading him of the rectitude of their theology, and not for the purposes of being corrected in their doctrines...

This was long after the dust had settled, right? If so, you are moving onto a different topic.

 

[Josiah]

...

See post 671. That's pretty much all I can say to the topic of this thread. Please read it. If you have ANY questions about how Lutherans view Justification, ask.

Do the Lutherans agree that it is God Who Baptizes?

Generally, yes (although it's not dogma). Certainly, a human administers it (we view it need not be an ordained Lutheran clergymen - or even a Lutheran or ordained person) but it is GOD who alone blesses, it is God alone who is the Lord and Author of Life, it is God alone who is the Savior. See post 671.

That personal repentance is prerequisite to Baptism?

No. That is an Anabaptist dogma. I was baptized within one minute of my birth (by emergency C-Section). I was not breathing nor was I conscience at the time. Lutherans yet view it as a valid baptism. Now, as I state in post 671, MANY things are associated with Justification (and Baptism) - personal repentance among them, but association does not mandate causation. Generally, breathing is associated with life but it is wrong to dogmatically state that the person breathing is what causes their conception. Lutherans generally see repentance as a Christian act.

That there is no Salvation apart from - eg prior to - Repentance?

See post 671. We hold that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of spiritual life, not dead homo sapiens. And we hold that Jesus is the Savior, not dead homo sapiens each for self.

Yes, personal repentance is one of many things associated with soteriology. As is forgiveness, holiness, loving as much as God first loved us, etc., etc. However, association does not mandate causation. And Lutherans would reject the dogma that a Dead person - who denies the very existence of God, who denies the Incarnation and Cross and Resurrection, who denies God's Law and mercy, who extols self and denies God, ACHIEVES justification by performing a good work: having remorse for offending God and violating God's Law..... Looks to the Savior Jesus Christ and His Incarnation/Death/Resurrection.... and in that light, seeks mercy from God, so that self saves self, the dead gives life to self. That's not a theology we hold.

That Salvation in Christ is initiated in Baptism?

Can be. We'd word that differently, however. See post 671.

That Justification is a consequence of repentance, and not its cause?

No. We hold that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of life, and that Jesus is the Savior. See post 671.

Yes, MANY things are associated with Justification in soteriology.... and yes, it begins with "the gift of God, which is NOT your own doing." But once given life/faith/justification, many things come into play. As I've noted, Lutherans and Catholics largely AGREE on all those things AFTER we are GIVEN life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification (Sanctification), the enormous debate is over Justification in the narrow sense of what you seem to like to call "entry."


I must add again, yet again friend, that while Lutherans welcome questions (and ask plenty), we are hesitant to appoint self to answer them (especially dogmatically so as to require that God agree with us in order to be correct). Lutherans often leave questions as questions.... "God gets the last word" is a common Lutheran comment.... 'mystery' is a favorite word in Lutheran theology. GOD does this.... He doesn't need stupid men to tell Him HOW He must do it. We give HIM all the credit, all the glory, and none to self (this is the basis of one of the Reformation declarations: "Soli Deo Gloria"). This is one of the fundamental disagreements between Protestantism and Catholicism.


See post 671. Also 723.



- Josiah

 

[Arsenios]

No. I have already explained that point.

Thank you - I was unclear on that one

That's a strange speculation IMO.

Well, the times were strange... The break-up of the power of the Latin Church to enforce theology was being inaugurated, and battle lines drawn, etc etc... So it would not be anything unusual for the Reformationists to invoke whatever forces they might find in order to bolster their efforts... And being keenly aware of the schism between Rome and Constantinople, using that split to help in the Reformation of Rome would be a natural...

You yourself say that the EO is the original church, so why would Luther, the greatest Bible scholar of his time, not know that the RCC had departed in many ways from the consensus of the early church, all the while claiming that its innovations were Apostolic?

Because being the greatest Bible scholar does not qualify one in the Faith... Luther was being birthed by the Latins in their Scholastic Theology which presents the Faith as a unified system of ideas that permit us to live in the Christian Faith... I personally feel that this approach, which is speculative and derived from the reading of Scripture, is in the very birthing of Luther remaining faithful to its Scholastic maternity... Scholasticism breeds scholars, you see... And scholars instruct in schools... And schools have classrooms... And classrooms have people sitting and listening to lectures of one to three hours... Sermons are lectures on the subjects of the Bible...

The basis for even understanding the Bible is repentance, which is the first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ... And properly done, that repentance is being done in the Faith in which it's writers prayed and labored and wrote... There are a lot of Muslim scholars who study the Bible extensively - Veritable Bible experts... Chapter and Verse Mullahs I say! And for that matter, when Jesus was tempted by Satan, the temptations were out of the Bible, were they not? So even Satan is a "Great Bible Scholar"... Ho... Ho... Ho...

But to Luther and those after him, the Eastern Church was seen primarily as a possible ally to be enlisted against Rome, and as Rome's lesser sister who was having issues with Papal Authority... They did not see the Eastern Church as the one remaining faithful to the original Apostolic Faith... And Rome as an innovater of doctrines...

This was long after the dust had settled, right? If so, you are moving onto a different topic.

That seems true, I guess...
But theological dust never settles...
Reformational Theology is Scholastic in its roots...

Eastern Orthodox Theology is rooted in repentance and keeping unchanged the Faith of the Fathers of the Church...

Repentance as a way of life and living is not all that post-enlightenment western, is it?

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Well, the times were strange... The break-up of the power of the Latin Church to enforce theology was being inaugurated, and battle lines drawn, etc etc... So it would not be anything unusual for the Reformationists to invoke whatever forces they might find in order to bolster their efforts... And being keenly aware of the schism between Rome and Constantinople, using that split to help in the Reformation of Rome would be a natural...

Why do you talk as though the Reformers wanted to trade in on the credibility of the EO but only as a tactic? If the EOs never believed in Indulgences, for example, and Luther saw no justification for them, why isn't that simply two forces pointing to the same Scriptural and historical evidence?

Because being the greatest Bible scholar does not qualify one in the Faith...

...and, according to you, it also does not qualify him to know anything about Church history, either. I find that idea ridiculous, regardless of what else one thinks of Dr. Luther.

 

[Arsenios]

We hold that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of spiritual life, not dead homo sapiens. And we hold that Jesus is the Savior, not dead homo sapiens each for self.

Well, we have been agreeing on this ever since your first iteration of it a bizillion instances ago...

And the question is what role does this "dead in Adam homo sapiens" have in the ekonomia of Salvation that the Faith of Christ (which Christ gave us) disciples? What is man to do in order that he be justified by God?

Lutherans reject the dogma that a Dead person -
who denies the very existence of God,
who denies the Incarnation
and Cross
and Resurrection,
who denies God's Law and mercy,
who extols self
and denies God,

ACHIEVES justification by performing a good work:

(eg by) having remorse for offending God and violating God's Law.....
Looks to the Savior Jesus Christ and His Incarnation/Death/Resurrection....
and in that light, seeks mercy from God,
so that self saves self,
the dead gives life to self.
That's not a theology we hold.

Do you know the difference between ACHIEVES and ATTAINS UNTO?

Because in a very practical sense, you are advising the unrepentant sinner to:
Have no remorse for offending God and violating God's Law...
To look away from the Savior Jesus Christ and His Incarnation/Death/Resurrection...
To NEVER seek Mercy from God...
BECAUSE you cannot save your self...
Because you are dead and cannot give yourself life by asking God for His Great Mercy...

THAT is LUTHERAN???

Because you are dead, you unrepentant sinner, just go slink off and die???
Because there is nothing you can DO???

Anathema, my Brother!

Anathema!

Listen -
You send that unrepentant sinner to us...
We will disciple him to turn away from his sins...
To begin living a clean life...
We will provide him with prayers...
We will support him in our prayers...
We will help him prepare for Baptism into Christ...
We will show him the way to purification of the heart...
We will disciple in him the Way that is Christ...

Theology is practical, you see...
And the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...
It is so at hand that it is within you...
And to enter it, you need purity of heart...
And you need Christ Himself, Who IS that Kingdom...

Enough!

LET GOD ARISE!
LET HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED!
LET THEM THAT HATE HIM FLEE FROM BEFORE HIS FACE!
CHRIST IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD!
TRAMPLING DOWN DEATH BY DEATH!
AND UPON THOSE IN THE TOMBS...
BESTOWING LIFE!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

According to you, [SCHOLARSHIP] does not qualify him to know anything about Church history

I hope I didn't say that - Although being a Latin Monk, he would hold the Latin view of that history, I should imagine...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I hope I didn't say that - Although being a Latin Monk, he would hold the Latin view of that history, I should imagine...

Arsenios

It sounds to me that you are equating Latin with Roman Catholic and, if so, this would obviously not be correct or else there wouldn't have been a Reformation as we know it.

 

[Andrew]

Well, we have been agreeing on this ever since your first iteration of it a bizillion instances ago...

And the question is what role does this "dead in Adam homo sapiens" have in the ekonomia of Salvation that the Faith of Christ (which Christ gave us) disciples? What is man to do in order that he be justified by God?



Do you know the difference between ACHIEVES and ATTAINS UNTO?

Because in a very practical sense, you are advising the unrepentant sinner to:
Have no remorse for offending God and violating God's Law...
To look away from the Savior Jesus Christ and His Incarnation/Death/Resurrection...
To NEVER seek Mercy from God...
BECAUSE you cannot save your self...
Because you are dead and cannot give yourself life by asking God for His Great Mercy...

THAT is LUTHERAN???

Because you are dead, you unrepentant sinner, just go slink off and die???
Because there is nothing you can DO???

Anathema, my Brother!

Anathema!

Listen -
You send that unrepentant sinner to us...
We will disciple him to turn away from his sins...
To begin living a clean life...
We will provide him with prayers...
We will support him in our prayers...
We will help him prepare for Baptism into Christ...
We will show him the way to purification of the heart...
We will disciple in him the Way that is Christ...

Theology is practical, you see...
And the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...
It is so at hand that it is within you...
And to enter it, you need purity of heart...
And you need Christ Himself, Who IS that Kingdom...

Enough!

LET GOD ARISE!
LET HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED!
LET THEM THAT HATE HIM FLEE FROM BEFORE HIS FACE!
CHRIST IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD!
TRAMPLING DOWN DEATH BY DEATH!
AND UPON THOSE IN THE TOMBS...
BESTOWING LIFE!

Arsenios

Amen brother!
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Revelation 22:14-21


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[ImaginaryDay2]

Well, we have been agreeing on this ever since your first iteration of it a bizillion instances ago...

And the question is what role does this "dead in Adam homo sapiens" have in the ekonomia of Salvation that the Faith of Christ (which Christ gave us) disciples? What is man to do in order that he be justified by God?



Do you know the difference between ACHIEVES and ATTAINS UNTO?

Because in a very practical sense, you are advising the unrepentant sinner to:
Have no remorse for offending God and violating God's Law...
To look away from the Savior Jesus Christ and His Incarnation/Death/Resurrection...
To NEVER seek Mercy from God...
BECAUSE you cannot save your self...
Because you are dead and cannot give yourself life by asking God for His Great Mercy...

THAT is LUTHERAN???

Because you are dead, you unrepentant sinner, just go slink off and die???
Because there is nothing you can DO???

Perhaps this will help -
It's been said that "Lutherans don't follow Luther", but it might be a good thing to reference him a bit regarding repentance:

2]This, then, is the thunderbolt of God by which He strikes in a heap [hurls to the ground] both manifest
sinners and false saints [hypocrites], and suffers no one to be in the right [declares no one righteous], but
drives them all together to terror and despair. This is the hammer, as Jeremiah 23, 29 says: Is not My
Word like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? This is not activa contritio or manufactured
repentance, but passiva contritio [torture of conscience], true sorrow of heart, suffering and sensation of
death.
3] This, then, is what it means to begin true repentance; and here man must hear such a sentence as this:
You are all of no account, whether you be manifest sinners or saints [in your own opinion]; you all must
become different and do otherwise than you now are and are doing [no matter what sort of people you
are], whether you are as great, wise, powerful, and holy as you may. Here no one is [righteous, holy],
godly, etc.
4] But to this office the New Testament immediately adds the consolatory promise of grace through the
Gospel, which must be believed, as Christ declares, Mark 1, 15: Repent and believe the Gospel, i.e.,
become different and do otherwise, and believe My promise. And John, preceding Him, is called a
preacher of repentance, however, for the remission of sins, i.e., John was to accuse all, and convict them
of being sinners, that they might know what they were before God, and might acknowledge that they
were lost men, and might thus be prepared for the Lord, to receive grace, and to expect and accept from
Him the remission of sins. Thus also Christ Himself says, Luke 24, 47: 6] Repentance and remission of
sins must be preached in My name among all nations.

https://bookofconcord.org/pdf/TrigBOC.pdf - p. 212-213