Justification

[Andrew]

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, BE fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:28


Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[Albion]

Reading a post for what it says rather than misrepresenting it would improve what you wrote since I did not say "all protestants" I wrote "I think that Martin Luther's doctrine -

I had assume that you would understand that I was not referring to a single post only.

 

[Josiah]

Martin Luther's doctrine was condemned as heresy.

Here is Luther's view on Justification (narrow).
Would you please SPECIFICALLY designate the aspects that are "heresy" in your view or in the current opinion of your denomination?



The Lutheran View of Justification:


By "Justification" (narrow) we mean the ESTABLISHMENT of a new and different relationship with God, the GIVING of the divine gifts of spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit. We do NOT mean all that results of these gifts and actions by God, what CHRISTIANS (those with the gifts of life, faith and justification) are called to do (that's Sanctification in the narrow sense) - in that, there is (and always has been) essential agreement between Catholicism and (most of) Protestantism.


Lutherans teach that justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable, united doctrine. Again, this applies only to Justification (narrow).




Sola Gratia (Grace Alone). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and all this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8, see also Romans 6:23, Titus 3:5, etc.). This places emphasis that our salvation (here in the sense of narrow justification) flows from God’s heart – not ours. It is the fruit of God's works/achievements - not ours. Grace in justification is God’s unmerited, unconditional love/favor/gift. Grace means “getting what we don’t deserve.” It is “God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense” It is God's mercy in NOT treating us as we deserve but of God's grace in giving us what we don't deserve and did not merit.


Solus Christus (Christ Alone). “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved” (Acts 4:12). “No one comes to the Father except by Me” (John 14:6). Christ IS our Savior and our salvation. It’s CHRIST’s perfect live, CHRIST’s perfect sacrifice, CHRIST’s triumphant resurrection! Christ is the object of our faith. In justification, it is not how much we believe or how good we believe but in Whom we believe; our focus is on the quality of Christ’s work rather than on the quality of our faith; HE is our certainty. We look to the Cross ( not in the mirror) to see the Savior. There is a life GIVER (as the ancient creed stresses) - and it's not dead self (1 John 5:11-12)


Sola Fide (Faith Alone). “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!” (Acts 16:30-31. Also see John 3:16, Acts 10:43, etc.). This proclaims that His grace and salvation are embraced by God’s gift of faith. Faith in this context means to trust or rely upon. It means to have active confidence or reliance especially upon something “unseen” or “unproven.” It too is the gift of God.



For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not perish but has everlasting life (Justification)!


"You were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1)
“God is love!” (1 John 1:8)
“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16)
“God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).
"This is our testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12)
“God saved us not because of deeds done by us but in virtue of His own mercy, that we might be saved by His grace” (Titus 3:5),
“For our sake God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
“The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:23).
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing but it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).
“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)
“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


Our justification (narrow) is the result of GOD’S heart, will and work – not our own. Nor is this a mixture of our works and His works so that Jesus is PARTLY the Savior and we are PARTLY the Savior (synergistic Pelagianism), no, Jesus IS the SAVIOR. If it has to do with salvation (justification, narrow) then it's Jesus' doing and gift. We are to keep our hearts and faith focused squarely and only on Jesus who ALONE is THE Savior.



A word about faith…

“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“We are justified by faith” Romans 5:1
“God justifies he who has faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 3:26


The word “faith” in this context means to rely, to trust. In its use here, it means to rely on Christ for Salvation (and beyond). It is the means by which we embrace the promise and the work of Christ.

Faith is not just (or even primarily) a cognitive or mental thing, it means to place our trust, our life in another – to rely. When we ride in an airplane, we may not understand exactly how the plane flies – but we can board the plane and literally entrust our very lives to it. We may submit to surgery and to a surgeon whom we don’t even know (and who doesn’t know us) and have no idea what will happen – literally entrusting our very life to him/her. Trust is a key factor in lives (to not trust is to be paranoid). For a Christian, we trust our soul and much of our life to God. In salvation, we trust in His works rather than in our own, we look to HIS perfect life rather than our sinful one, to His death rather than the one we deserve. We are placing our lives in His loving hands.

Faith is not our doing, it is the ‘gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)




A word about our works…

Salvation is not the result of OUR works but rather JESUS’ works. He is the Savior; we are not. Because JESUS is the Savior, it is His works that bring about our salvation – not ours (or else, we’d be the Savior!).

On the other hand, Scripture is clear that faith is never alone (James 2:17, Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 3:12-14). OUR works do not save us, but they result from our being saved – they are the result of our justification and not the cause of it. We love not so that God will love us, rather we love because God first loved us (Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Hebrews 11:6). OUR works are not the cause of salvation but the result of salvation, and as such, are to accompany our lives as Christians. CHRISTIANS are called to great things! To absolute divine holiness... to love even as Christ first loved us... to service/ministry.... and much, much more! These are not optional! But these are what the justified are called to do, not what makes one the justified. The unregenerate are dead and can't do anything spiritual (cuz they are dead), but once GIVEN life ("I have come that they may have life....") then (and only then) can they begin to live and grow and mature. It's not the growing that makes one alive, but being alive means we can grow.

Apart from Christ, we are "DEAD in our trespasses and sins." Life is not something the dead give to self, life is the GIFT of God given to the dead so that they have life. Yes, Justification (God's works for us) and Sanctification (our works for God) are inseparable, but association does not even imply causation. Yes, generally speaking, the living breathe but it is not breathing that causes one to be concieved and have life - it's having been given life that causes one to breathe.


Messing this up undermines everything! When Jesus is no longer the Savior, we’ve stepped outside of Christianity. When we are made our own Savior (in whole or in part), the result is not only a conflict with Scripture and the central affirmation of Christianity, but it results in one of two things: A “terror of the conscience” (as we realize we’re not the “savior” of self we need to be) or we become little self-righteous, condemning souls (because we think we are what we need to be). It results in the beauty and comfort of the Gospel being lost and our relationship to God undermined.

In some circles, OUR works are added to the requirements of John 3:16 so that it reads, “For God so loved the world so that those who do “X, Y and Z” will not perish but be given what their works deserve, everlasting life.” The key factor then is not Christ but our performance of “X, Y and Z” – not His work but our work, WE become the Savior, not Christ. And we must worry if we’ve done “X, Y and Z” well enough (remember His call to perfection?), if we’ve done enough, if we’ve done well enough, if we’ve been sufficient. IF we answer “NO” the result is a “terror of the conscience” so that we never know if we are forgiven or saved or heaven-bound or not. IF we answer “YES” the result is often a prideful, self-righteous, condemning modern-day Pharisee. We must not mix our works with Christ’s works, the cause of salvation with the fruit of salvation. The result is the “peace that passes all understanding” and love that isn’t selfish and self-serving but truly of God.

Jesus is the Savior! We are saved by His grace and mercy, by His life and death and resurrection! Our faith, our rest, our certainty are in Christ! Our peace, our confidence, our certainty are in Christ!




SEE ALSO POST # 8






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[Josiah]

The Gospel of Justification:
By "Justification" (narrow) we mean the ESTABLISHMENT of a new and different relationship with God...

.

For the Orthodox, we mean the establishment of a NEW CREATION IN GOD...

The new relationship flows from that... As do the Gifts...

Arsenios

A very Lutheran view. As long as you agree that that "establishment" (or what you earlier call "entry") is something God does, God GIVES to us.... that Jesus is the Savior, that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life.


See post 723.


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[MennoSota]

The faithful ought to be circumspect about claiming absolute certainty of their own salvation for the reasons given in the above paragraphs and those who - during the years from 1521 AD to 1547 AD - taught absolute assurance of salvation on the basis of their faith completely independent of and apart from their deeds (good works or lack thereof) are rightly said to be in error and those who taught these things during the time mentioned above are called heretics.

And there is the added works that make Rome the Judaisers Paul condemns.
Faith is a gift from God. Faith, given to the elect, will produce the fruit of the Spirit (see Galatians 5). These will be evidence of faith.
But, Rome thinks the fruit is grown by human effort and works in a human attempt to keep the gift given by God. Rome is a mirror image of the Judaisers in Galatians.
Thanks for sharing this, MC, you make my point. The Council of Trent is the defining moment in Rome's continuing apostasy.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And there is the added works that make Rome the Judaisers Paul condemns.
Faith is a gift from God. Faith, given to the elect, will produce the fruit of the Spirit (see Galatians 5). These will be evidence of faith.
But, Rome thinks the fruit is grown by human effort and works in a human attempt to keep the gift given by God. Rome is a mirror image of the Judaisers in Galatians.
Thanks for sharing this, MC, you make my point. The Council of Trent is the defining moment in Rome's continuing apostasy.

Catholics taught in 1547 (and before) the following:

Decree Concerning Justification
Introduction
Since there is being disseminated at this time, not without the loss of many souls and grievous detriment to the unity of the Church, a certain erroneous doctrine concerning justification, the holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the most reverend John Maria, Bishop of Praeneste de Monte, and Marcellus, priest of the Holy Cross in Jerusalem, cardinals of the holy Roman Church and legates Apostolic a latere, presiding in the name of our most holy Father and Lord in Christ, Paul III, by the providence of God, Pope, intends, for the praise and glory of Almighty God, for the tranquillity of the Church and the salvation of souls, to expound to all the faithful of Christ the true and salutary doctrine of justification, which the Sun of justice,[1] Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith[2] taught, which the Apostles transmitted and which the Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost has always retained; strictly forbidding that anyone henceforth presume to believe, preach or teach otherwise than is defined and declared in the present decree.
CHAPTER I
THE IMPOTENCY OF NATURE AND OF THE LAW TO JUSTIFY MAN
The holy council declares first, that for a correct and clear understanding of the doctrine of justification, it is necessary that each one recognize and confess that since all men had lost innocence in the prevarication of Adam,[3] having become unclean,[4] and, as the Apostle says, by nature children of wrath,[5] as has been set forth in the decree on original sin,[6] they were so far the servants of sin[7] and under the power of the devil and of death, that not only the Gentiles by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom, though free will, weakened as it was in its powers and downward bent,[8] was by no means extinguished in them.
CHAPTER II
THE DISPENSATION AND MYSTERY OF THE ADVENT OF CHRIST
Whence it came to pass that the heavenly Father, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort,[9] when the blessed fullness of time was come,[10] sent to men Jesus Christ, His own Son, who had both before the law and during the time of the law been announced and promised to many of the holy fathers,[11] that he might redeem the Jews who were under the law,[12] and that the Gentiles who followed not after justice[13] might attain to justice, and that all men might receive the adoption of sons.
Him has God proposed as a propitiator through faith in his blood[14] for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world.[15]
CHAPTER III
WHO ARE JUSTIFIED THROUGH CHRIST
But though He died for all,[16] yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so if they were not born again in Christ, they would never be justified, since in that new birth there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace by which they are made just.
For this benefit the Apostle exhorts us always to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption and remission of sins.[17]
CHAPTER IV
A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE
In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.
This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:
Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

 

[MoreCoffee]

Catholics in 1547 AD also taught this

CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.
Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.
CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION
Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.
Of this disposition it is written:
He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him;[24] and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee;[25] and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin;[26] and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;[27] and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you;[28] finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.[29]
CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]
The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one's disposition and cooperation.
For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity.
For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.[39]
For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead[40] and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by charity.[41]
This faith, conformably to Apostolic tradition, catechumens ask of the Church before the sacrament of baptism, when they ask for the faith that gives eternal life, which without hope and charity faith cannot give.
Whence also they hear immediately the word of Christ:
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[42]
Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are commanded, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe[43] given them through Christ Jesus in place of that which Adam by his disobedience lost for himself and for us, so that they may bear it before the tribunal of our Lord Jesus Christ and may have life eternal.
CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.
For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]

 

[MoreCoffee]

And in 1547 AD Catholics also taught this about Justification

CHAPTER IX
AGAINST THE VAIN CONFIDENCE OF HERETICS
But though it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted nor ever have been remitted except gratuitously by divine mercy for Christ's sake, yet it must not be said that sins are forgiven or have been forgiven to anyone who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins,[47] resting on that alone, though among heretics and schismatics this vain and ungodly confidence may be and in our troubled times indeed is found and preached with untiring fury against the Catholic Church.
Moreover, it must not be maintained, that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubt whatever, convince themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified except he that believes with certainty that he is absolved and justified,[48] and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone, as if he who does not believe this, doubts the promises of God and the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ.
For as no pious person ought to doubt the mercy of God, the merit of Christ and the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, so each one, when he considers himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension concerning his own grace, since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.
CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
"Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity."[57]

 

[MoreCoffee]

And this too, in 1547 AD, was taught by Catholics about justification:

CHAPTER XI
THE OBSERVANCE OF THE COMMANDMENTS AND THE NECESSITY AND POSSIBILITY THEREOF
But no one, however much justified, should consider himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one should use that rash statement, once forbidden by the Fathers under anathema, that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified.
For God does not command impossibilities, but by commanding admonishes thee to do what thou canst and to pray for what thou canst not, and aids thee that thou mayest be able.[58]
His commandments are not heavy,[59] and his yoke is sweet and burden light.[60]
For they who are the sons of God love Christ, but they who love Him, keep His commandments, as He Himself testifies;[61] which, indeed, with the divine help they can do.
For though during this mortal life, men, however holy and just, fall at times into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, they do not on that account cease to be just, for that petition of the just, forgive us our trespasses,[62] is both humble and true; for which reason the just ought to feel themselves the more obliged to walk in the way of justice, for being now freed from sin and made servants of God,[63] they are able, living soberly, justly and godly,[64] to proceed onward through Jesus Christ, by whom they have access unto this grace.[65]
For God does not forsake those who have been once justified by His grace, unless He be first forsaken by them.
Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself with faith alone, thinking that by faith alone he is made an heir and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with christ, that he may be also glorified with him.[66]
For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle says, whereas he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being consummated, he became to all who obey him the cause of eternal salvation.[67]
For which reason the same Apostle admonishes those justified, saying:
Know you not that they who run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize?
So run that you may obtain.
I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty; I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body and bring it into subjection; lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.[68]
So also the prince of the Apostles, Peter:
Labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election.
For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.[69]
From which it is clear that they are opposed to the orthodox teaching of religion who maintain that the just man sins, venially at least, in every good work;[70] or, what is more intolerable, that he merits eternal punishment; and they also who assert that the just sin in all works, if, in order to arouse their sloth and to encourage themselves to run the race, they, in addition to this, that above all God may be glorified, have in view also the eternal reward,[71] since it is written:
I have inclined my heart to do thy justifications on account of the reward;[72] and of Moses the Apostle says; that he looked unto the reward.[73]
CHAPTER XII
RASH PRESUMPTION OF PREDESTINATION IS TO BE AVOIDED
No one, moreover, so long as he lives this mortal life, ought in regard to the sacred mystery of divine predestination, so far presume as to state with absolute certainty that he is among the number of the predestined,[74] as if it were true that the one justified either cannot sin any more, or, if he does sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance.
For except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen to Himself.
CHAPTER XIII
THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE
Similarly with regard to the gift of perseverance, of which it is written:
He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved,[75] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him stand who stands,[76] that he may stand perseveringly, and to raise him who falls, let no one promise himself herein something as certain with an absolute certainty, though all ought to place and repose the firmest hope in God's help.
For God, unless men themselves fail in His grace, as he has begun a good work, so will he perfect it, working to will and to accomplish.[77]
Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall,[78] and with fear and trembling work out their salvation,[79] in labors, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayer, in fastings and chastity.
For knowing that they are born again unto the hope of glory,[80] and not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat that yet remains with the flesh, with the world and with the devil, in which they cannot be victorious unless they be with the grace of God obedient to the Apostle who says:
We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die, but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.[81]
CHAPTER XIV
THE FALLEN AND THEIR RESTORATION
Those who through sin have forfeited and received grace of justification, can again be justified when, moved by God, they exert themselves to obtain through the sacrament of penance the recovery, by the merits of Christ, of the grace lost.[82]
For this manner of justification is restoration for those fallen, which the holy Fathers have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of grace lost.[83]
For on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of penance when He said:
Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.[84]
Hence, it must be taught that the repentance of a Christian after his fall is very different from that at his baptism, and that it includes not only a determination to avoid sins and a hatred of them, or a contrite and humble heart,[85] but also the sacramental confession of those sins, at least in desire, to be made in its season, and sacerdotal absolution, as well as satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers and other devout exercises of the spiritual life, not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is, together with the guilt, remitted either by the sacrament or by the desire of the sacrament, but for the temporal punishment which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Ghost[86] and have not feared to violate the temple of God.[87]
Of which repentance it is written:
Be mindful whence thou art fallen; do penance, and do the first works;[88] and again, The sorrow that is according to God worketh penance, steadfast unto salvation;[89] and again, Do penance, and bring forth fruits worthy of penance.[90]

 

[MoreCoffee]

And this too was taught in 1547 AD by Catholics about Justification:


CHAPTER XV
BY EVERY MORTAL SIN GRACE IS LOST, BUT NOT FAITH
Against the subtle wits of some also, who by pleasing speeches and good words seduce the hearts of the innocent,[91] it must be maintained that the grace of justification once received is lost not only by infidelity, whereby also faith itself is lost, but also by every other mortal sin, though in this case faith is not lost; thus defending the teaching of the divine law which excludes from the kingdom of God not only unbelievers, but also the faithful [who are] fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liars with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners,[92] and all others who commit deadly sins, from which with the help of divine grace they can refrain, and on account of which they are cut off from the grace of Christ.
CHAPTER XVI
THE FRUITS OF JUSTIFICATION, THAT IS, THE MERIT OF GOOD WORKS, AND THE NATURE OF THAT MERIT
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.[93]
For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name;[94] and, Do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward.[95]
Hence, to those who work well unto the end[96] and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.[97]
For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming.[98]
For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches,[99] continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its [due] time, provided they depart [this life] in grace,[100] since Christ our Savior says:
If anyone shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst forever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up into life everlasting.[101]
Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own from ourselves,[102] nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated, for that justice which is called ours, because we are justified by its inherence in us, that same is [the justice] of God, because it is infused into us by God through the merit of Christ.
Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward;[103] and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;[104] nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord,[105] whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.
And since in many things we all offend,[106] each one ought to have before his eyes not only the mercy and goodness but also the severity and judgment [of God]; neither ought anyone to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything;[107] because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged not by the judgment of man but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God,[108] who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works.[109]
After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add to these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.


My humble apologies for the long posts but it seems that reading the source material from an external web site was too much to ask and I suspect that reading these long posts will be too much to ask of some but having it all here in this thread may help others who are willing to read and that is what I aim to do.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I am fairly sure that the period following 1547 AD is the period that some Protestants identify as especially egregious for evil acts - both Catholic and Protestant groups went to war and slaughtered people who were not wicked.

Let's not get into facts, now...

 

[MennoSota]

But though He died for all,[16] yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated;

If only Rome believed this, it would believe what Calvin believed, which is that God elects those unto salvation. Rome, by its comment above, must believe in limited atonement.

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

Note that the water presented in John 3 is not water baptism, but that is for another topic.

 

[MennoSota]

Catholics in 1547 AD also taught this

CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification...

And there is Rome's problem, it places justification on a timeline where works keep the person justified. (Can you say...Judaisers?)
God is the one who justifies, once and for all, by His grace. He chose to do this before the foundation of the world.
Rome seems to have no concept of sanctification, even though scripture teaches it.

 

[MennoSota]

It has become clear, from the cut and paste of Rome, that Rome adds works as the means of maintaining faith and being justified. Rome misconstrues grace and forces merit upon the believer. Any thinking person can see that they are mirroring the Judaisers whom Paul condemned in Galatians.

 

[Andrew]

We must conclude that Grace is the only answer to both sides, it includes love and charity which by the bibles definition are the same thing.
Faith alone does not put on the new man nor does our works.
Be strong in your faith and continue to fight the good fight in Christ but never call the other side 'foolish' for only atheist are fools,
believe on Christ Jesus with all of your heart body and spirit and you ARE justified.

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[Arsenios]

EOC clergy ... didn't let the people hear God's word in their native tongue

FAKE NEWS!

The Truth is we created from their oral language a written language for the Slavs/Russians and the Aleuts of Alaska, and translated Scripture and the Service Books into Cyrillic and Yuptic...

That is our Theology of Mission...

It is why we gave the Latin Church the Latin Bible at the hands of Jerome...

Not to mention the Coptic Written to Egypt...

Gypt and Copt are the same word, just fyi...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Well, Arsenios, you wrote that "Lutherans tried,and desired to enter into a theological debate with the Patriarch...

He offered to teach them the Faith that existed without change...

They preferred debate..."

But that was more than a generation after the famous debates--at Leipzig, for instance--which were features of the early Reformation, when the RCC was challenged on its errors, when the EO were cited as being in step with the Apostolic church unlike the Vatican, etc.. By the late 1540s, the die was already cast, Luther excommunicated, the English Reformation secured, Calvins stand taken, and on and on

Thank-you...

So was the EOC a party to these early debates? Or were we simply being used by Reformation apologists to bolster their standing in the debates? Because when I read the letters some time back, I had the feeling that the Lutherans contacted the Patriarch for the purpose of persuading him of the rectitude of their theology, and not for the purposes of being corrected in their doctrines... The Patriarch began by correcting their scholastic approach to dogmatic issues as being resolvable not by arguing from Holy Writ, but by being conformable to Holy Tradition passed down from the Beginnings...

And they would have none of it...

IF, however, the EOC was a part of these debates as a participant, I would be very interested in seeing that history...

Thanks again...

Your saying "To late" for theological flight to the EOC's unadulterated Christian Doctrine does seem to place such correction in the hands of historical events... A placement the EOC would eschew...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

A very Lutheran view. As long as you agree that that "establishment" (or what you earlier call "entry") is something God does, God GIVES to us.... that Jesus is the Savior, that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life.


See post 723.


.

Do the Lutherans agree that it is God Who Baptizes?
That personal repentance is prerequisite to Baptism?
That there is no Salvation apart from - eg prior to - Repentance?
That Salvation in Christ is initiated in Baptism?
That Justification is a consequence of repentance, and not its cause?

I can go on and on here...

Is this what you mean?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

God is the one who justifies, once and for all, by His grace.

Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God,
and the Powers of the Age to come,
If they should fall away...

So much for your "once and for all"...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God,
and the Powers of the Age to come,
If they should fall away...

So much for your "once and for all"...

Arsenios

My friend at church takes this verse way out of context I believe. He believes that when you sin you are crucifying Christ on the cross, he is certain of this and it seems to terrify him. From what I gather in this verse is that we ARE justified in our humbleness, that is -that we are strictly under grace and whatever works we assume, we are yet humble before the Lord and are under his wing so to speak, nothing can weigh down the light yoke he has given to us as a gift. We are indeed rich in our humbleness and Thank GOD almighty for this grace he allots us. For it is impossible for us to tastes the fruits of Grace and Truth while remaining ignorant to it at the same time. As someone pointed out to me months ago, we are not walking a tight rope that plunges us into darkness if we slip. This how Christ saves us from hell, let our good works be good but be humble in the fact that our wrong deeds are covered in his sacrifice

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