Justification

[MennoSota]

God's decision is God's decision. He does what He does as He determines. He is not concerned with whether we understand or think it's fair.
MC, since we are "all like filthy rags" do you think even one person should be chosen? If so, what rules must you keep to be one of clean ones that God chooses?

Who does "God grab"? Is God's decision to grab random, like tossing a coin?

 

[Andrew]

Do you imagine you were not guided by God when you were an atheist?
Do you imagine that you stumbled upon God and began begging him for mercy because he was unaware of you? Do you imagine God's sovereign hand was not directing your path? God has always been with you from before your conception to the present moment.

I imagined that if there were a God that he would send me straight to hell for burning the bible when I got high with some 'friends' after school one time.
God took no part in my rebellion, that was all me and my frustration with instituted religious pressure... that very episode of the bible burning was filmed as well and my parents found it, when my life was falling apart they told me I was cursed for doing that and indeed I did feel cursed. I picked up the bible and understood nothing still but I felt a strong attraction to it and hadnt put it down since. It was in reading it that I felt so close to something bigger than me, definitely my heavenly father, and I communed with him day and night and one night I begged for mercy (several nights I suppose). I noticed things in the NT that goes against my Catholic upbringing and the truth was unveiled, I read that Saul who became Paul was a murderer and God still forgave him, but my church told me that I must confess my sins to another father, and get saved only by instructions of Holy men, no wonder I hated the bible and everything Christian then... my anger was never towards God but kindled against hypocrisy.
Anyway, I never shared that before and Im not blaming the RCC for what I did, I just know now that God has forgiven me and amen he has been with me every step of the way.


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[Arsenios]

Of course God was the one at work to bring you to Him.

No question - Yet I did not come to Him... I simply tried and failed to be the physician of my own soul...

Then God came to me...

And I denied the existence of God... Heck, I can still prove God does not exist... I even proved it to God...
Turns out that I was right - God is the GIVER of existence, and thereby is infinitely beyond existence...

God is your Father who has been a part of your life since before you were born. He was the one calling you to Him. He was the one who brought His Word to you in various ways even though at times your rejected and even though at times you didn't realize it was Him. He was the one who put believers into your life so that they could share the Gospel with you. He was the one who used the message...the Good News that Jesus died for you and your sins are forgiven so that you could believe and have eternal life. You received all that He has given to you. Yet you still think it wasn't all Him?

I did not like Christians, and would not abide their proximity to me without humiliating them...

All I did was dig down through my soul to uncover and heal dark things that were in there...
I did so relentlessly, destroying my whole life in that pursuit, and all relationships with people I loved...
And I refused to lie and be a hypocrite... I paid the price of self-knowledge, and failed in my quest for healing...

Except that it was in that very failure that God came...

For two years I did not even know it was God...

Then I knew first hand, but knew for a (false) fact that He was not the Christian God...

And I have been walking with Him ever since, up and downs and all...

14 years later He showed me He IS the Christian God...

I was scandalized, and called bs on him...

He directed me to the Orthodox Faith...

Where I finally found the Saints of the Church who KNEW God as I know Him...

So what you do is important... What you do matters...

For your Salvation...

And what I did I did while denying His existence and ridiculing His Servants...

I was on a God-Quest unawares... It is a Reality-Quest...

But for me, it was a healing quest...

And yes, God heals...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, you and I have never had a purified heart...ever.

Please do not pretend to be God and know my heart...

You do not know me...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

So many testimonies begin with..."I started reading the Bible." It reminds me of Hebrews 4.
Hebrews 4:9-16
[9]So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God.
[10]For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world.
[11]So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.
[12]For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.
[13]Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.
[14]So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe.
[15]This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin.
[16]So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.

I imagined that if there were a God that he would send me straight to hell for burning the bible when I got high with some 'friends' after school one time.
God took no part in my rebellion, that was all me and my frustration with instituted religious pressure... that very episode of the bible burning was filmed as well and my parents found it, when my life was falling apart they told me I was cursed for doing that and indeed I did feel cursed. I picked up the bible and understood nothing still but I felt a strong attraction to it and hadnt put it down since. It was in reading it that I felt so close to something bigger than me, definitely my heavenly father, and I communed with him day and night and one night I begged for mercy (several nights I suppose). I noticed things in the NT that goes against my Catholic upbringing and the truth was unveiled, I read that Saul who became Paul was a murderer and God still forgave him, but my church told me that I must confess my sins to another father, and get saved only by instructions of Holy men, no wonder I hated the bible and everything Christian then... my anger was never towards God but kindled against hypocrisy.
Anyway, I never shared that before and Im not blaming the RCC for what I did, I just know now that God has forgiven me and amen he has been with me every step of the way.


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[Arsenios]

God does it all, Arsenios.

By your logic I can return to my pile of vomit then with the other dogs...
And then you can tell me: "God does it all, Arsenios..."

If you are attempting to be justified by your works,

Never have been...

If you are a disciple of Christ, you are found in Christ, not in your own efforts.

I was baptized into Christ by Christ through the Servants of Christ into His Baptism in the Jordan...

Admittedly, I did have to strong arm the clergy a tad to get it happening!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

In all that...God was directing and ordaining your path, just as He directs and ordains all things. Your behavior was natural, in alignment with the rebellion in which you were born. None of your self-disciplines make you closer to God. You were still equally rebellious, but you hid it better under your self-righteousness. You were not on a God quest. God was orchestrating your path until he chose to reveal Himself to you. You don't get any credit, Arsenios. Nor does anyone. It's all to the glory of God, by His design and by His choosing.

No question - Yet I did not come to Him... I simply tried and failed to be the physician of my own soul...

Then God came to me...

And I denied the existence of God... Heck, I can still prove God does not exist... I even proved it to God...
Turns out that I was right - God is the GIVER of existence, and thereby is infinitely beyond existence...



I did not like Christians, and would not abide their proximity to me without humiliating them...

All I did was dig down through my soul to uncover and heal dark things that were in there...
I did so relentlessly, destroying my whole life in that pursuit, and all relationships with people I loved...
And I refused to lie and be a hypocrite... I paid the price of self-knowledge, and failed in my quest for healing...

Except that it was in that very failure that God came...

For two years I did not even know it was God...

Then I knew first hand, but knew for a (false) fact that He was not the Christian God...

And I have been walking with Him ever since, up and downs and all...

14 years later He showed me He IS the Christian God...

I was scandalized, and called bs on him...

He directed me to the Orthodox Faith...

Where I finally found the Saints of the Church who KNEW God as I know Him...

So what you do is important... What you do matters...

For your Salvation...

And what I did I did while denying His existence and ridiculing His Servants...

I was on a God-Quest unawares... It is a Reality-Quest...

But for me, it was a healing quest...

And yes, God heals...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You could return to your pile of vomit. If you are truly God's child, you won't, because God won't let you out of His hand.
The question for you to ask is: Am I saved by God's grace, apart from my works, or am I like Judas who wanted God's Kingdom to bring him prestige because of his good works?

By your logic I can return to my pile of vomit then with the other dogs...
And then you can tell me: "God does it all, Arsenios..."



Never have been...



I was baptized into Christ by Christ through the Servants of Christ into His Baptism in the Jordan...

Admittedly, I did have to strong arm the clergy a tad to get it happening!

Arsenios

Water baptism is spiritually insignificant. If you see it as your means of salvation then you are still dead in your trespasses and sins, Arsenios.

 

[Andrew]

No question - Yet I did not come to Him... I simply tried and failed to be the physician of my own soul...

Then God came to me...

And I denied the existence of God... Heck, I can still prove God does not exist... I even proved it to God...
Turns out that I was right - God is the GIVER of existence, and thereby is infinitely beyond existence...



I did not like Christians, and would not abide their proximity to me without humiliating them...

All I did was dig down through my soul to uncover and heal dark things that were in there...
I did so relentlessly, destroying my whole life in that pursuit, and all relationships with people I loved...
And I refused to lie and be a hypocrite... I paid the price of self-knowledge, and failed in my quest for healing...

Except that it was in that very failure that God came...

For two years I did not even know it was God...

Then I knew first hand, but knew for a (false) fact that He was not the Christian God...

And I have been walking with Him ever since, up and downs and all...

14 years later He showed me He IS the Christian God...

I was scandalized, and called bs on him...

He directed me to the Orthodox Faith...

Where I finally found the Saints of the Church who KNEW God as I know Him...

So what you do is important... What you do matters...

For your Salvation...

And what I did I did while denying His existence and ridiculing His Servants...

I was on a God-Quest unawares... It is a Reality-Quest...

But for me, it was a healing quest...

And yes, God heals...

Arsenios

for a while I felt that church was still not for me but on one occasion God literally drove me to church unaware lol one minute Im at home depressed, angry at my girlfriend and the next im hit with the Holy Ghost lying in town square in the middle of the road as Pentecostals prayed over me
Its a wild story but yes God does want for you and me to go to a church that you feel comfortable in (i specified 'you and me' because its just the case in our case).
I don't entirely agree with everything my church believes but God put me in an awesome church where I can find peace and liberty and be around like minded people with whom I can discern scriptures with.


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[Arsenios]

So many testimonies begin with..."I started reading the Bible."

Well, God had been bugging me for years and years and years to read the Book of John, as I wandered around through the world looking for people who knew God as I knew Him, and no one did... "You need to read the Book of John..." "Yeah, yeah... I will get around to it, what's the big deal...??" So finally, after 14 years, I picked up a Bible, opened John, and read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..."

I lowered the text and said: "That's nuts!" So I read it again, and it was more nuts... And no mattere how I read it, it was nuts and nuts... So I went out and got a bunch of translations - 12 I ended up with, and they all said the same dumb thing... It was crackers... And I got mad... If THIS is how it is going to be, then I will dig up the Greek and read THAT, and find out what it means... So I called a Jehova Witness friend of mine and asked him if he had a Greek Bible I could borrow... He hesitantly said yes... So I looked at the text, and it said: en arche ein ho Logos... And I said: "Oh!!! The "Word" means the "Logos"! I KNEW the meaning of Logos from my Greek Philosophy classes... It is the metaphysical principle that all existence possesses that makes existence intelligible... And now this principle is being put forth as God in some way! So I continued to read the text in Greek, struggling because my Greek was old and dusty and rusty... And with errors, the text opened... And it was in this reading, at chapter 12, that God let me know that He is the God of the Christians, to my stunned outrage and disbelief...

Just thought I would toss that little story in to the mix here...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

for a while I felt that church was still not for me but on one occasion God literally drove me to church unaware lol one minute Im at home depressed, angry at my girlfriend and the next im hit with the Holy Ghost lying in town square in the middle of the road as Pentecostals prayed over me
Its a wild story but yes God does want for you and me to go to a church that you feel comfortable in (i specified 'you and me' because its just the case in our case).
I don't entirely agree with everything my church believes but God put me in an awesome church where I can find peace

Roger that!

I am luckier than you in a way because the Orthodox Faith believes the Truth and I have no reservations in Her orthodoxy...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You could return to your own vomit.

Well, as YOU say, it is ALL God, and NOTHING me!

Then I could blame God for my torments!

See why I reject your doctrine?

You have a doctrine of the Salvation of man that rules out man's human will...

Thereby you have a doctrine of man's Salvation that rules out man...

It makes Salvation a farce...

And it is not...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

So many testimonies begin with..."I started reading the Bible." It reminds me of Hebrews 4.
Hebrews 4:9-16
[9]So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God.
[10]For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world.
[11]So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.
[12]For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.
[13]Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.
[14]So then, since we have a great High Priest who has entered heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we believe.
[15]This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all of the same testings we do, yet he did not sin.
[16]So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most.

Thanks brother Menno, Hebrews was actually the first book I remember reading (yup I just opened randomly and read) and the first line I remember reading was "for our God is a consuming fire" and it has never left my mind.

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[Arsenios]

Water baptism is spiritually insignificant.

Your argument is with the Bible - Christ told the Apostles to Baptize people INTO Christ...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Roger that!

I am luckier than you in a way because the Orthodox Faith believes the Truth and I have no reservations in Her orthodoxy...

Arsenios

Can I run around in your church and shout out "hallelujah!" spontaneously? Cause I will
lol
I believe we all have a sound mind in the spirit of Truth even our brother Menno (whom im noticing to agree with alot lately)
I also think long debates were an issue for the apostles and we should discern our egos or passively accept eachothers viewpoint with a grain of salt before things get too heated.


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[Arsenios]

Can I run around in your church and shout out "hallelujah!" spontaneously? Cause I will
lol

I'll be running right with you!

I believe we all have a sound mind in the spirit of Truth even our brother Menno (whom im noticing to agree with alot lately)

Me too...
Who says God does not answer prayers?

I also think long debates were an issue for the apostles and we should discern our egos or passively accept eachothers viewpoint with a grain of salt before things get too heated.

It is easy to do...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

God's decision is God's decision. He does what He does as He determines. He is not concerned with whether we understand or think it's fair.
MC, since we are "all like filthy rags" do you think even one person should be chosen? If so, what rules must you keep to be one of clean ones that God chooses?

I do not recall any passage saying that people are like filthy rags. Perhaps you've remembered it erroneously?

 

[MennoSota]

I do not recall any passage saying that people are like filthy rags. Perhaps you've remembered it erroneously?

Isaiah 64
[6]We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Isaiah 64 [6]We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

Yes, you did remember it incorrectly. That's okay. It is "righteous deeds" that are said to be "filthy rags" in the translation you've chosen.

Isaiah 64:1 As when fire sets brushwood ablaze and causes water to boil, make the nations know your name, and your enemies tremble. 2 Let them witness your stunning deeds. 3 No one has ever heard or perceived, no eye has ever seen a God besides you who works for those who trust in him. 4 You have confounded those who acted righteously and who joyfully kept your ways in mind. But you are angry with our sins, yet conceal them and we shall be saved. 5 All of us have become like the unclean; all our good deeds are like polluted garments; we have all withered like leaves, blown away by our iniquities. 6 There is no one who calls upon your name, no one who rouses himself to lay hold of you. For you have hidden your face, you have given us up to the power of our evil acts. 7 And yet, Yahweh, you are our Father; we are the clay and you are our potter; we are the work of your hand. 8 Do not let your anger go too far, O Yahweh, or think of our sins forever. See, we all are your people! 9 Your holy cities have become a wilderness, Zion has become a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation. 10 Our holy and glorious house, where our ancestors used to pray to you, has been razed to the ground, and all that we treasure lies in ruins. 11 Can you still remain unmoved, O Yahweh, before all this? Will you punish us further with your silence?​

The phrase you used is part of a prayer of repentance. Israel sorrows over their sins knowing that their exile was the fruit that their sins produced. So Isaiah offers his perspective on Israel's sins and the pollution of soul and deed created by them. And he remembers in their behalf that Yahweh is their Father and the clay that Yahweh fashions into whatever He wants. He asks for mercy. He pleads for God to remember them and hear his prayer with redeeming action rather than punishing silence. There's a lesson for Christians in Isaiah's prayer, the lesson is that repentance matters and that God the Father hears the prayer of repentant people. It is implied that unrepentant people's prayers will go unheard.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The Thief on the Cross. Perhaps John the Baptist still in his mother's womb. Of course, they did express their faith.

But yes, the old Protestant proverb comes to mind, "Faith alone saves but faith is never alone." Actually, Justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. But yes, that faith is "an active, busy thing revealing itself in loving deeds for our neighbor" (to quote Martin Luther).

If OUR works are what justifies, then we are justified by our works - not Jesus'. And if the Savior is me, then the Savior is not Jesus. Yes, everyone agrees that it's WORKS that results in justification: the question is WHOSE? Jesus' or Self? Is the Savior the one we see on the Cross or in the mirror? Is it OUR works that result in justification (Life) so that self is the giver of life (not the Holy Spirit)? Is it OUR works that results in justification so that Jesus' life, death and resurrection are "in vain" as the Bible puts it? Which is it?

But if your works are caused by GOD given faith in Christ then how does the glory not go to GOD?

What makes it in vain is ignoring it and not being changed and continuing in sin.

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