Did the Pope speak the truth?

[popsthebuilder]

And condemned because all fall short of the glory of God. But, do go on and tell us how your good works are going to be your ticket to heaven. Argue your case like the Pope did.

Stick to the topic.

So we(believers) aren't made righteous? Or is righteousness in fellowship with what is knowingly vile?

Could you please answer any of my questions as opposed to attempting to sidestep and redirect attention? Please refer to my previous post for other questions.

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[popsthebuilder]

How is it that some people want to condemn the pope in GOD'S stead? How is it that some people can't seem to grasp that perhaps; just maybe; the pope put this child first in his reasonings to self. Perhaps he actively chose to show mercy to this child, and knowingly not be wholly accurate in the sight of the Lord. Does anyone think that GOD may show mercy to the merciful? Did anyone think that that child is wholly blessed in the sight of the Lord, and the pope knowing this, and having compassion; chose to take a stripe for the sake of this little one?....go ahead and tell that kid his pops is in eternal imeasuable torment because he didn't believe in Jesus; see if that youth doesn't grow to hate his skewed perception of GOD; effectively damning himself to the same fate according to such a doctrine.


(I'm done ranting for now; it just blows my freakin mind sometimes.....;people more versed than me by many years.

Wait; I forgot some don't know what mercy is, or why all creation deserves it except maybe those given knowledge.

No; that isn't me saying literally all should be logically afforded mercy.(guess I wasn't done)

peace)





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[MennoSota]

Stick to the topic.

So we(believers) aren't made righteous? Or is righteousness in fellowship with what is knowingly vile?

Could you please answer any of my questions as opposed to attempting to sidestep and redirect attention? Please refer to my previous post for other questions.

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The topic is: Did the Pope err in his answer to the child?
Was the father of the child good in God's perspective so that God received him into heaven based upon his goodness as the Pope suggested?

Your question is of no consequence or importance to this topic thread.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The topic is: Did the Pope err in his answer to the child?
Was the father of the child good in God's perspective so that God received him into heaven based upon his goodness as the Pope suggested?

Your question is of no consequence or importance to this topic thread.

Cool; blow off multiple questions.

Don't be offended if I ignore you more.

peace

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[MennoSota]

Cool; blow off multiple questions.

Don't be offended if I ignore you more.

peace

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I am never offended by your struggles.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I am never offended by your struggles.

I'm not struggling with anything but your tunnel vision.

I answered the question.

He may have spoken wrong; maybe.....but for the sake of the child.




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[MennoSota]

I'm not struggling with anything but your tunnel vision.

I answered the question.

He may have spoken wrong; maybe.....but for the sake of the child.




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He did speak wrong and the child was pointed down a false path. The Pope was deceitful because he didn't have the courage to speak wisely. Worse, he had the crowd mimic his false assertion.

 

[popsthebuilder]

He did speak wrong and the child was pointed down a false path. The Pope was deceitful because he didn't have the courage to speak wisely. Worse, he had the crowd mimic his false assertion.

So you think he should have judged a dead man whom he never knew, and tell the child that his father will be in utter torture, pain, and torment for the rest of eternity; and you think that this would help the child to turn towards GOD; more than what the pope actually said?


I'm glad you aren't the pope for children's sake.

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[MennoSota]

So you think he should have judged a dead man whom he never knew, and tell the child that his father will be in utter torture, pain, and torment for the rest of eternity; and you think that this would help the child to turn towards GOD; more than what the pope actually said?


I'm glad you aren't the pope for children's sake.

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No, I think he should have not used the boys tragedy to speak a falsehood to everyone there. I think the child needs biblical council regarding God's holiness, God's mercy and God's grace. I think the Pope has no idea if the dad was given faith or not, however, if the man died with no faith we cannot say that his allowing the kids to be baptized in the Roman church thus made the man good and holy before God. The Pope wrongly spoke.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A young child came to the Pope and asked if his atheist dad was in heaven. The Pope had this response (watch the video).
Personally, it saddened me to hear the Pope's response as he spoke an untruth to this child.
https://youtu.be/bRbUTfSds0U

The English translation for what the pope and the crowd said in Italian is:

If only we could cry like Emanuele when we have pain in our Hearts. He cries for his papa who died, and had the courage to do so before us because there is love in his heart for his papa. I asked Emanuele permission to reveal his question to the public and he said 'yes'.

"My papa died a short time ago. He was an atheist, but he baptised his four children. He was a good man. Is papa in heaven?"​

It's nice that a son says this about his father, that he was "good". Do you think that God would be able to leave a man like him far from Him? Do you think that?

[the crowd responds "no"]​

Louder, with courage.

[ the crowd says "No!"]​

Does God abandon His children?

[the crowd responds "No!"]​

Does God abandon His children when they are good?

[the crowd responds "No!"]​

Here, Emanuele, this is the answer. God surely was proud of your papa because it is easier when one is a believer to baptise his children, than to baptise them when you are an unbeliever. Surely God liked this so much. Talk to your papa, pray for your papa. Thanks Emanuele for your courage.​

What do you object to in that translation? Is it the crowd's responses? Do you object to the idea that a man who died an atheist but who evidently had faith enough to have his children baptised and very likely had faith in his youth and who was - according to his young son - a good man, do you object to the crowd saying that such a man would not be abandoned by God? Do you object to the pope speaking comforting words to the little boy whose father died recently?

Or is all this a farce, the thread's question, the implied disapproval of what was said, is it all a farce or does it make a farce of "The Perseverance of the Saints" that doctrine so precious that here in CH many threads have been filled with our Calvinist brethren defending it (including the one on Justification currently under discussion)? Does a man's death as an atheist mean that God's grace is no longer extended to such a man even though there is evidence that he had faith enough to have all four of his children baptised as Christians? If, as may be the case and for which there is evidence in the English translation of the transcript of the little boy's words and the pope's responses, the little boy's father had faith once and trusted in Christ once is he now abandoned. Is a man who was a child of God born through baptism into the family of God and into union with Christ abandoned by God when he - near the end of his life - says he is an atheist?

Let's see what answer is given.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would really like to see MoreCoffee's opinion on the matter, and his reason(s) for it.

So I issue the invitation to him.

And thank him in advance.

My reply is in my previous post.

 

[Lamb]

Or is all this a farce, the thread's question, the implied disapproval of what was said, is it all a farce or does it make a farce of "The Perseverance of the Saints" that doctrine so precious that here in CH many threads have been filled with our Calvinist brethren defending it (including the one on Justification currently under discussion)? Does a man's death as an atheist mean that God's grace is no longer extended to such a man even though there is evidence that he had faith enough to have all four of his children baptised as Christians? If, as may be the case and for which there is evidence in the English translation of the transcript of the little boy's words and the pope's responses, the little boy's father had faith once and trusted in Christ once is he now abandoned. Is a man who was a child of God born through baptism into the family of God and into union with Christ abandoned by God when he - near the end of his life - says he is an atheist?

Let's see what answer is given.

I think what people are defending here is that no man will enter heaven by doing an act...such as baptizing his children. Did the man have faith or not is something none of us can answer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think what people are defending here is that no man will enter heaven by doing an act...such as baptizing his children. Did the man have faith or not is something none of us can answer.

The little boy, Emanuele, needed an answer. Was what Francis said "true"? Maybe. Did Francis hear something more than the English translation says? Yes, I think he did.

And sister Lämmchen, what was wrong, specifically, in the words spoken by Francis?

The English translation for what the pope and the crowd said in Italian is:

If only we could cry like Emanuele when we have pain in our Hearts. He cries for his papa who died, and had the courage to do so before us because there is love in his heart for his papa. I asked Emanuele permission to reveal his question to the public and he said 'yes'.

"My papa died a short time ago. He was an atheist, but he baptised his four children. He was a good man. Is papa in heaven?"​

It's nice that a son says this about his father, that he was "good". Do you think that God would be able to leave a man like him far from Him? Do you think that?

[the crowd responds "no"]​

Louder, with courage.

[ the crowd says "No!"]​

Does God abandon His children?

[the crowd responds "No!"]​

Does God abandon His children when they are good?

[the crowd responds "No!"]​

Here, Emanuele, this is the answer. God surely was proud of your papa because it is easier when one is a believer to baptise his children, than to baptise them when you are an unbeliever. Surely God liked this so much. Talk to your papa, pray for your papa. Thanks Emanuele for your courage.​

What do you object to in that translation? Is it the crowd's responses? Do you object to the idea that a man who died an atheist but who evidently had faith enough to have his children baptised and very likely had faith in his youth and who was - according to his young son - a good man, do you object to the crowd saying that such a man would not be abandoned by God? Do you object to the pope speaking comforting words to the little boy whose father died recently?

 

[Lamb]

The little boy, Emanuele, needed an answer. Was what Francis said "true"? Maybe. Did Francis hear something more than the English translation says? Yes, I think he did.

And sister Lämmchen, what was wrong, specifically, in the words spoken by Francis?

The English translation for what the pope and the crowd said in Italian is:

If only we could cry like Emanuele when we have pain in our Hearts. He cries for his papa who died, and had the courage to do so before us because there is love in his heart for his papa. I asked Emanuele permission to reveal his question to the public and he said 'yes'.

"My papa died a short time ago. He was an atheist, but he baptised his four children. He was a good man. Is papa in heaven?"​

It's nice that a son says this about his father, that he was "good". Do you think that God would be able to leave a man like him far from Him? Do you think that?

[the crowd responds "no"]​

Louder, with courage.

[ the crowd says "No!"]​

Does God abandon His children?

[the crowd responds "No!"]​

Does God abandon His children when they are good?

[the crowd responds "No!"]​

Here, Emanuele, this is the answer. God surely was proud of your papa because it is easier when one is a believer to baptise his children, than to baptise them when you are an unbeliever. Surely God liked this so much. Talk to your papa, pray for your papa. Thanks Emanuele for your courage.​

What do you object to in that translation? Is it the crowd's responses? Do you object to the idea that a man who died an atheist but who evidently had faith enough to have his children baptised and very likely had faith in his youth and who was - according to his young son - a good man, do you object to the crowd saying that such a man would not be abandoned by God? Do you object to the pope speaking comforting words to the little boy whose father died recently?

My personal objection is there is absolutely no mention of Jesus Christ the Savior which should have had some say when considering salvation of any man.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My personal objection is there is absolutely no mention of Jesus Christ the Savior which should have had some say when considering salvation of any man.

And what answer ought Francis have given to the little boy? To Emanuele whose father died recently and who couldn't speak a word at the microphone for crying and who whispered in Francis' ear and received a whispered answer and then after Francis and Emanuele were finished and the little boy gave permission to voice his whispered question, "My papa died a short time ago. He was an atheist, but he baptised his four children. He was a good man. Is papa in heaven?", what objectionable thing did Francis say? I didn't see a single objectionable word but perhaps you did so which words were objectionable or are you unhappy because Francis didn't say something that you think he ought to have said? Exactly what ought Francis to have said to the little boy in the public part of their discussion?

I think that this thread is not "defending" anything. It's a beat up. An attempt to create controversy where none really exists.

 

[MennoSota]

The English translation for what the pope and the crowd said in Italian is:

If only we could cry like Emanuele when we have pain in our Hearts. He cries for his papa who died, and had the courage to do so before us because there is love in his heart for his papa. I asked Emanuele permission to reveal his question to the public and he said 'yes'.

"My papa died a short time ago. He was an atheist, but he baptised his four children. He was a good man. Is papa in heaven?"​

It's nice that a son says this about his father, that he was "good". Do you think that God would be able to leave a man like him far from Him? Do you think that?

[the crowd responds "no"]​

Louder, with courage.

[ the crowd says "No!"]​

Does God abandon His children?

[the crowd responds "No!"]​

Does God abandon His children when they are good?

[the crowd responds "No!"]​

Here, Emanuele, this is the answer. God surely was proud of your papa because it is easier when one is a believer to baptise his children, than to baptise them when you are an unbeliever. Surely God liked this so much. Talk to your papa, pray for your papa. Thanks Emanuele for your courage.​

What do you object to in that translation? Is it the crowd's responses?

I find that the crowd didn't know the answer. The Pope directed them to say what they said.
Is a person who has no belief a child of God (Read Hebrews 12)
What does God call good? Does allowing your child to be baptized in the Roman church therefore make you a good man. Do you get a "get out of jail free" card from God?

Do you object to the idea that a man who died an atheist but who evidently had faith enough to have his children baptised and very likely had faith in his youth and who was - according to his young son - a good man, do you object to the crowd saying that such a man would not be abandoned by God? Do you object to the pope speaking comforting words to the little boy whose father died recently?

I object to false teaching and horrible theology taught by the Pope to the child and the crowd. The words he spoke were a mere whitewash on the surface while the child and crowd remain ignorant of the condemnation of sin and the justification that only comes from Christ's atonement.
The Pope makes it worse for the child and the crowd because he lied to them all and proclaimed a falsehood that the man stood before God and was declared good. The Pope has no knowledge of this. He spoke as a human who would rather lie to appease a child than point the child toward the cross and the Savior.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I find that the crowd didn't know the answer. The Pope directed them to say what they said.
Is a person who has no belief a child of God (Read Hebrews 12)
What does God call good? Does allowing your child to be baptized in the Roman church therefore make you a good man. Do you get a "get out of jail free" card from God?

I object to false teaching and horrible theology taught by the Pope to the child and the crowd. The words he spoke were a mere whitewash on the surface while the child and crowd remain ignorant of the condemnation of sin and the justification that only comes from Christ's atonement.
The Pope makes it worse for the child and the crowd because he lied to them all and proclaimed a falsehood that the man stood before God and was declared good. The Pope has no knowledge of this. He spoke as a human who would rather lie to appease a child than point the child toward the cross and the Savior.

Like I've already stated.

Pointing to GOD and saying the man is in hell is not gonna bring the kid towards GOD.

You said yourself that no one knows if the man is damned or not; but you wanted the pope to condemn the man openly and to his greaving son, but you can't see that doing such is both against scripture and would most likely insure the child never turned to GOD in any submissive manner.

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[MoreCoffee]

Like I've already stated.

Pointing to GOD and saying the man is in hell is not gonna bring the kid towards GOD.

You said yourself that no one knows if the man is damned or not; but you wanted the pope to condemn the man openly and to his greaving son, but you can't see that doing such is both against scripture and would most likely insure the child never turned to GOD in any submissive manner.

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You are right. The pope is first and foremost a pastor and his answer is pastoral. It's not the place or time to give a dissertation on theology when a little boy whose father died recently is crying and asking for comfort. Yet some will make a dispute out of anything. It is disgusting I reckon. Thank you for showing that a pastor has greater responsibilities than to satisfy a zealot's desire for affirmation of his/her theological strictures against a dead man whose son is seeking comfort.

 

[Lamb]

And what answer ought Francis have given to the little boy? To Emanuele whose father died recently and who couldn't speak a word at the microphone for crying and who whispered in Francis' ear and received a whispered answer and then after Francis and Emanuele were finished and the little boy gave permission to voice his whispered question, "My papa died a short time ago. He was an atheist, but he baptised his four children. He was a good man. Is papa in heaven?", what objectionable thing did Francis say? I didn't see a single objectionable word but perhaps you did so which words were objectionable or are you unhappy because Francis didn't say something that you think he ought to have said? Exactly what ought Francis to have said to the little boy in the public part of their discussion?

I think that this thread is not "defending" anything. It's a beat up. An attempt to create controversy where none really exists.

I already wrote what I thought that the pope should have said...he should have mentioned the Savior which is what Christians cling to for salvation, is He not? What the pope said was to the boy but also to the world...the living...and the living need to hear the Gospel message which speaks of Jesus, the cross and forgiveness of sins. The pope missed a huge opportunity to do what he was called to do.

Edited to add the the Gospel message brings the most comfort.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I already wrote what I thought that the pope should have said...he should have mentioned the Savior which is what Christians cling to for salvation, is He not? What the pope said was to the boy but also to the world...the living...and the living need to hear the Gospel message which speaks of Jesus, the cross and forgiveness of sins. The pope missed a huge opportunity to do what he was called to do.

Edited to add the the Gospel message brings the most comfort.

The world has Jesus and the apostles, let them listen to them. If the world will not hear Jesus then it will not be convinced by the pope answering a little boy's tear filled question.