Did the Pope speak the truth?

Lamb

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The world has Jesus and the apostles, let them listen to them. If the world will not hear Jesus then it will not be convinced by the pope answering a little boy's tear filled question.

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

It is never wrong to preach the Gospel in all its glory.
 

MoreCoffee

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The world has Jesus and the apostles, let them listen to them. If the world will not hear Jesus then it will not be convinced by the pope answering a little boy's tear filled question.


Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

It is never wrong to preach the Gospel in all its glory.

Jesus said "If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced, even if someone rises from the dead." A comment from Francis at a small media event is a very poor second behind one rising from the dead and yet Jesus says that the world will not listen even if one rises from the dead to sound a warning.
 

psalms 91

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Jesus said "If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced, even if someone rises from the dead." A comment from Francis at a small media event is a very poor second behind one rising from the dead and yet Jesus says that the world will not listen even if one rises from the dead to sound a warning.
MC I agree that the pope did right in comforting the boy but he could have also mentioned that Jesus is the one who will give entrance into heaven and comfort him that he can know where he would go. I dont have the right words but there are ways of saying this that is not hell and damnnation and would give comfort and hope and as pope I think he has this ability. The other thing I notice in this is it brought to mind the fact that we are His messengers to spread the Word and the good news of the gospel, to say they wouldnt listen to Jesus strikes me as an excuse not to and a cop out but perhaps I am wrong.
 

MennoSota

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Like I've already stated.

Pointing to GOD and saying the man is in hell is not gonna bring the kid towards GOD.
Saying the man is good and received by God is not going to bring the kid toward GOD. Only God will bring the child to Himself.
Stating something false to make someone feel good is not wise.
You said yourself that no one knows if the man is damned or not; but you wanted the pope to condemn the man openly and to his greaving son, but you can't see that doing such is both against scripture and would most likely insure the child never turned to GOD in any submissive manner.
I don't call for the Pope to condemn the child's father. I call for the Pope to speak the truth of God's word and not a falsehood that the atheist father is good and received into fellowship with God. The Pope cannot know this, yet he preaches it anyway.
I have addressed the need for biblical counsel for this child. The Pope turned this young child's grief into an opportunity to speak falsely. He should have remained silent rather that share falsely.
 

Lamb

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Jesus said "If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced, even if someone rises from the dead." A comment from Francis at a small media event is a very poor second behind one rising from the dead and yet Jesus says that the world will not listen even if one rises from the dead to sound a warning.

The pope didn't even try to preach the good news in all its glory to comfort the boy. Telling the boy that his father did something good by having the children baptized is nice but what's better is preaching that Jesus died for forgiveness of sin! Nowhere does it say the boy or the crowd refused to listen! The pope failed to do his ultimate job of preaching Christ crucified.
 

MoreCoffee

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The pope didn't even try to preach the good news in all its glory to comfort the boy. Telling the boy that his father did something good by having the children baptized is nice but what's better is preaching that Jesus died for forgiveness of sin! Nowhere does it say the boy or the crowd refused to listen! The pope failed to do his ultimate job of preaching Christ crucified.

Have you watched the entire media event, the parts that came before the little Emaneule cried at the microphone, the 30 minutes and more that preceded that? Do you know what Francis said before the video snippet in the first post of this thread?
 

MoreCoffee

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Have you watched the entire media event, the parts that came before the little Emaneule cried at the microphone, the 30 minutes and more that preceded that? Do you know what Francis said before the video snippet in the first post of this thread?

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After circling a massive, crumbling public housing complex on the outskirts of Rome, Pope Francis had an emotional encounter with the neighbourhood’s children.

Question-and-answer sessions with youngsters are a standard part of Pope Francis’ parish visits. And, at St. Paul of the Cross parish on 15 April, there were the usual questions like, “How did you feel when you were elected pope?”

But then it was Emanuele’s turn. The young boy smiled at the pope as he approached the microphone. But then froze. “I can’t do it,” Emanuele said.

Msgr. Leonardo Sapienza, a papal aide, encouraged the boy, but he kept saying, “I can’t.”

“Come, come to me, Emanuele,” the pope said. “Come and whisper it in my ear.”

Msgr. Sapienza helped the boy up to the platform where the pope was seated. Emanuele was sobbing by that point, and Pope Francis enveloped him in a big embrace, patting his head and speaking softly to him.

With their heads touching, the pope and the boy spoke privately to each other before Emanuele returned to his seat.

“If only we could all cry like Emanuele when we have an ache in our hearts like he has,” the pope told the children. “He was crying for his father and had the courage to do it in front of us because in his heart there is love for his father.”

Pope Francis said he had asked Emanuele if he could share the boy’s question and the boy agreed. “‘A little while ago my father passed away. He was a nonbeliever, but he had all four of his children baptised. He was a good man. Is dad in heaven?'”

“How beautiful to hear a son say of his father, ‘He was good,'” the pope told the children. “And what a beautiful witness of a son who inherited the strength of his father, who had the courage to cry in front of all of us. If that man was able to make his children like that, then it’s true, he was a good man. He was a good man.

“That man did not have the gift of faith, he wasn’t a believer, but he had his children baptised. He had a good heart,” Pope Francis said.

“God is the one who says who goes to heaven,” the pope explained.

The next step in answering Emanuele’s question, he said, would be to think about what God is like and, especially, what kind of heart God has. “What do you think? A father’s heart. God has a dad’s heart. And with a dad who was not a believer, but who baptised his children and gave them that bravura, do you think God would be able to leave him far from himself?”

“Does God abandon his children?” the pope asked. “Does God abandon his children when they are good?”

The children shouted, “No.”

“There, Emanuele, that is the answer,” the pope told the boy. “God surely was proud of your father, because it is easier as a believer to baptise your children than to baptise them when you are not a believer. Surely this pleased God very much.”

Pope Francis encouraged Emanuele to “talk to your dad; pray to your dad.”

Earlier, a young girl named Carlotta also asked the pope a delicate question: “When we are baptised, we become children of God. People who aren’t baptised, are they not children of God?”

“What does your heart tell you?” the pope asked Carlotta. She said, they are, too.

“Right, and I’ll explain,” the pope told her. “We are all children of God. Everyone. Everyone.”

The nonbaptized, members of other religions, those who worship idols, “even the mafiosi,” who terrorize the neighborhood around the parish, are children of God, though “they prefer to behave like children of the devil,” he said.

“God created everyone, loves everyone and put in everyone’s heart a conscience so they would recognise what is good and distinguish it from what is bad,” the pope said.

The difference, he said, is that “when you were baptised, the Holy Spirit entered into that conscience and reinforced your belonging to God and, in that sense, you became more of a daughter of God because you’re a child of God like everyone, but with the strength of the Holy Spirit.”
=====
 

Lamb

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Have you watched the entire media event, the parts that came before the little Emaneule cried at the microphone, the 30 minutes and more that preceded that? Do you know what Francis said before the video snippet in the first post of this thread?

Was more said to the grieving boy...maybe something about Jesus?

A law and gospel distinction ....

Law to those who prefer to remain in their sin
Gospel for those in despair

The boy was in despair so the entire sweetness of the Gospel message would have been preferred over the weak answer that was given to him. The answer was a start but did not go where it should have gone and the Pope had a perfect opportunity. If someone is crying before you...give them Jesus.
 

MoreCoffee

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Was more said to the grieving boy...maybe something about Jesus?

A law and gospel distinction ....

Law to those who prefer to remain in their sin
Gospel for those in despair

The boy was in despair so the entire sweetness of the Gospel message would have been preferred over the weak answer that was given to him. The answer was a start but did not go where it should have gone and the Pope had a perfect opportunity. If someone is crying before you...give them Jesus.

The pope is not a Lutheran, he doesn't do "law versus gospel" or "law and gospel" sermons. That's a Lutheran theological matter. I posted a story reporting more of what was said and the circumstances under which it was said. I have not yet found a transcript of everything that was said by Francis in his tour of the housing complex in his own see. It was a pastoral visit. Not an exercise in theological instruction. But you are welcome to continue this sham of a thread. I'll bow out now.

Cheers.
 

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The pope is not a Lutheran, he doesn't do "law versus gospel" or "law and gospel" sermons. That's a Lutheran theological matter. I posted a story reporting more of what was said and the circumstances under which it was said. I have not yet found a transcript of everything that was said by Francis in his tour of the housing complex in his own see. It was a pastoral visit. Not an exercise in theological instruction. But you are welcome to continue this sham of a thread. I'll bow out now.

Cheers.

Exercise in theological instruction? I would think that someone labeled as the vicar of Christ would want to feed the people with the Gospel at every waking moment and at every opportunity. Isn't that his duty?

Again, the pope would have been far better off in mentioning the Savior to the little boy. Do you disagree?
 

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Pope Francis encouraged Emanuele to “talk to your dad; pray to your dad.”

Earlier, a young girl named Carlotta also asked the pope a delicate question: “When we are baptised, we become children of God. People who aren’t baptised, are they not children of God?”

“What does your heart tell you?” the pope asked Carlotta. She said, they are, too.

“Right, and I’ll explain,” the pope told her. “We are all children of God. Everyone. Everyone.”

The nonbaptized, members of other religions, those who worship idols, “even the mafiosi,” who terrorize the neighborhood around the parish, are children of God, though “they prefer to behave like children of the devil,” he said.

“God created everyone, loves everyone and put in everyone’s heart a conscience so they would recognise what is good and distinguish it from what is bad,” the pope said.

The difference, he said, is that “when you were baptised, the Holy Spirit entered into that conscience and reinforced your belonging to God and, in that sense, you became more of a daughter of God because you’re a child of God like everyone, but with the strength of the Holy Spirit.”
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1) The Pope said to pray to a dead man, but never mentioned to pray to God.

2) False teaching regarding baptism.
3) Humans are, by nature, in rebellion to God. They are creations of God. They are not members of the family of God. (Read Hebrews 12)
4) Another false teaching regarding baptism. The Pope makes baptism the merit by which God is obligated to save.
Thanks for sharing this. It clearly presents the great divide between the Bible and the church at Rome.
 

Andrew

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1) The Pope said to pray to a dead man, but never mentioned to pray to God.

2) False teaching regarding baptism.
3) Humans are, by nature, in rebellion to God. They are creations of God. They are not members of the family of God. (Read Hebrews 12)
4) Another false teaching regarding baptism. The Pope makes baptism the merit by which God is obligated to save.
Thanks for sharing this. It clearly presents the great divide between the Bible and the church at Rome.
Think about what you just wrote.
Imagine this as an answer to the young children, you are judging others as if you understand God to the fullest degree and those words would absolutely destroy the faith of these children. You would basically be saying "the Pope is a liar, I know God because I interpret his word the best, and your dad is burning in hell.... and talking to your dad as well as baptism is just foolishness, have a good day"

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MennoSota

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Think about what you just wrote.
Imagine this as an answer to the young children, you are judging others as if you understand God to the fullest degree and those words would absolutely destroy the faith of these children. You would basically be saying "the Pope is a liar, I know God because I interpret his word the best, and your dad is burning in hell.... and talking to your dad as well as baptism is just foolishness, have a good day"

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Are you a child?
I am saying the Pope's answer was not biblically accurate or sound. I am saying the Pope spoke falsely. I also explained what the child needed, which is biblical counseling regarding God's holiness, our sinfulness and our need for reconciliation with God. The child's father would want his son to know the truth, not a lie meant to pacify.
 

Albion

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Was more said to the grieving boy...maybe something about Jesus?

A law and gospel distinction ....

Law to those who prefer to remain in their sin
Gospel for those in despair

The boy was in despair so the entire sweetness of the Gospel message would have been preferred over the weak answer that was given to him. The answer was a start but did not go where it should have gone and the Pope had a perfect opportunity. If someone is crying before you...give them Jesus.
I agree with you in what you have been saying about this incident, but OTOH MoreCoffee was onto something, too.

Regardless of what a Pope OUGHT to do, this Pope isn't much of a theologian. It is true that Law and Gospel etc. are not his forte. His life has been more about politics and social organizing, and his public utterances since being elevated to the Papal office have often been clumsy, to say the least. This exchange with the boy was not atypical for Francis, although it may have been more regrettable than most because of the particular circumstances we have been talking about.
 

Andrew

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Are you a child?
I am saying the Pope's answer was not biblically accurate or sound. I am saying the Pope spoke falsely. I also explained what the child needed, which is biblical counseling regarding God's holiness, our sinfulness and our need for reconciliation with God. The child's father would want his son to know the truth, not a lie meant to pacify.
A child who lost his father is dealing with his loss, he can listen to you as an adult later but he was upset about his father maybe being hell, I would tell him about our Father and about HIS forgiveness and mercy and how he and only he is judge, so who is casting stones at his dad? Is God? sinners? We are not able to judge damnation on a soul, don't speak for God to a child menno, I wouldnt trust your words, I believe the Pope implies well, God saw Noah a good man was this only because he was a Jew?

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MennoSota

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A child who lost his father is dealing with his loss, he can listen to you as an adult later but he was upset about his father maybe being hell, I would tell him about our Father and about HIS forgiveness and mercy and how he and only he is judge, so who is casting stones at his dad? Is God? sinners? We are not able to judge damnation on a soul, don't speak for God to a child menno, I wouldnt trust your words, I believe the Pope implies well, God saw Noah a good man was this only because he was a Jew?

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We've gone over this before. We have already agreed that God chose whatever he chose regarding the dad's soul.
The Pope's words were unwise and not biblically or theologically sound. His answer to the child is misleading and untruthful.
 

Andrew

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Ok let me play the child...
"Sir my father passed away, we were raised Catholic and I am sore afraid that he is burning in hell *starts crying* sir you read the word, is this true? Can I pray for him?"

seriously I just want to see your response, provide scripture and all you need in your qoute response to me the child.

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I agree with you in what you have been saying about this incident, but OTOH MoreCoffee was onto something, too.

Regardless of what a Pope OUGHT to do, this Pope isn't much of a theologian. It is true that Law and Gospel etc. are not his forte. His life has been more about politics and social organizing, and his public utterances since being elevated to the Papal office have often been clumsy, to say the least. This exchange with the boy was not atypical for Francis, although it may have been more regrettable than most because of the particular circumstances we have been talking about.

I was on Facebook earlier and saw the video come through on a friend's feed and went to read the comments...the Atheists are all praising the Pope and the fact he called the Atheist dad "good". They don't see the connection between what the Christian "good" is as it relates to the Savior so this is very sad indeed.
 

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Ok let me play the child...
"Sir my father passed away, we were raised Catholic and I am sore afraid that he is burning in hell *starts crying* sir you read the word, is this true? Can I pray for him?"

seriously I just want to see your response, provide scripture and all you need in your qoute response to me the child.
You were not speaking to me, but it would be easy to be both compassionate and evangelically on target when talking to this boy. Any experienced pastor who is called upon to preach a funeral sermon knows how to balance the two.
 

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Ok let me play the child...
"Sir my father passed away, we were raised Catholic and I am sore afraid that he is burning in hell *starts crying* sir you read the word, is this true? Can I pray for him?"

seriously I just want to see your response, provide scripture and all you need in your qoute response to me the child.

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Like the post above...even though you did not ask me personally I do want to respond.

Even though someone might not know the distinctions of Law and Gospel, they might practice it without even realizing it and in this particular instance, it's helpful. The Law always accuses us. It brings us to our knees...but what about someone who is already on his knees and begging for mercy? That's the joy of the gospel.

How I raised me own child was on a law and gospel distinction. If she was misbehaving I gave her my law. If she was crying, I wouldn't condemn her, but as a loving parent I would have mercy upon her...just like God does in examples throughout scripture.

So in this case, with a child in despair about his dead parent, I would not tell the child his dad was in hell because that's Law talk. I would speak of our God who loves the world and gave His only Son to die for the forgiveness of sins. If the child persisted in asking if his dad was in heaven it's perfectly acceptable to admit that we cannot know and leave it to God who is merciful and just.
 
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