Justification

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MennoSota

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As to what "saved" means, Jesus seems to use it primarily for a permanent change in direction, from moving someone from being a "sinner" to being a follower of Jesus. (I quote "sinner" because it seems clear from context that Jesus understands that even his followers sin. When he uses the term "sinner" I think he's echoing standard Jewish terminology where it refers to someone who ignores the Law, and sins unrepentantly.) He also sometimes refers to eschatological salvation.

I would normally say that it's actually broader than that, and includes the whole process of making us into Christ's image. But it's not so clear that Jesus actually uses it this way.
You state:

"Jesus seems to use it primarily for a permanent change in direction, from moving someone from being a "sinner" to being a follower of Jesus."
You are describing repentance, not justification.
Is justification permanent? We must answer the question of whether God's adoption of a rebel is permanent. We must answer the question of whether the seal of the Spirit is permanent.
 

MoreCoffee

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Rectify is a fine translation, but there’s some ambiguity about it. It makes make right. But what do you mean by right?

The Protestant tradition says declare righteous, with a forensic tilt, meaning declare not guilty before God. In Protestant theology this is something that happens once (arguably, at Jesus’ death) and is permanent. Rectify is fine for this, as it means make right with God.

The Catholic tradition says make righteous, with a focus on the Christian life. So it’s a continuing process, which can be interrupted. This can still be called rectification, with the understanding that rectification is an ongoing process.

This is in some sense a false dichotomy. At least in the Protestant understanding there are both permanent and developing aspects of the process of salvation. Hence the use of the term “sanctification” to represent the ongoing process. (I note this this isn’t Biblical language. Sanctification is used differently in the NT. I generally speak simply of the Christian life.)

There’s a third perspective which to my knowledge is fairly recent (though perhaps this isn’t true in the East). That’s the covenantal context. Paul was using that perspective, because he was looking at how God worked with Jews and Gentiles over history, at the grafting of Gentiles into the covenant. From this perspective, rectification means making someone a member in good standing of the covenant people. (However I would agree with Wright that in Romans it’s often recognition that someone is a member of the covenant.) But this shares a lot with the classical Protestant concept, because it’s still about our status before God, and it’s permanent (except in unusual situations that I’d categorize as apostasy).

Our theology tends to come out of our experience. Luther found that he was unable to have any confidence that he was actually accepted by God. If your whole idea about salvation is an ongoing process that can have setbacks, and requires you to deal properly with every sin, and if you’re sensitive to the severity of sin, it’s easy to be afraid that you haven't fully dealt with your sin, you aren't saved, and eventually, that God doesn’t care about you. This isn’t just a late medieval problem, nor is it only a result of Catholic theology. We see the same thing every day in CF’s Christian Advice and other places, and in CF it’s largely people from a Protestant background.

So historically, for Protestants, justification represents our status as people of God, based on God’s commitment to save his people, not our own moral success. Of course the other side is still there: we’ll be judged for how we respond to Christ’s call. But when we fail, we fail as disobedient children, not as people that God has abandoned.

In the West, both during Luther’s tine and today, Christianity has tended to focus on avoiding hell. For many Christians today, that’s all Jesus is good for. They reinterpret all of his statements about the Kingdom as just about avoiding hell. That’s a terrible distortion of his message. For me, justification is a way of dealing with this. It says that our status as being acceptable to him is something we can trust. It’s based on Christ’s death for us. Our whole Christian lives can’t be devoted just to doing what we need to do to stay out of hell.

I previously observed that Catholic teaching places more emphasis on Justification meaning "made righteous" or "made just" and the idea is that not only is there a legal idea in the word "justification" but there is also a real change in the people who are said to be "justified" and that real change is that they become - progressively - more and more just and righteous when they make good use of the graces that God gives to them in their lives. And because Catholic tradition keeps both the idea of legal and of actual change of status in its use of "justification" it follows that Catholic theology also places emphasis on real change in one's way of life and attitudes and words and doings as the actual meaning of "justification".

As you noted in holy scripture "sanctification" has a meaning rather distinct from its common use in Protestant theologies. In the holy scriptures sanctification is about being separated from the world and reserved for God's purposes. There is a moral aspect to sanctification but the primary emphasis is on separation. The use that is common in Protestant theologies is quite unlike the use in the holy scriptures insofar as Protestant theologies place primary (almost exclusive) emphasis on moral holiness (goodness). That is, in part, why Protestant theologies tend towards a sharp distinction between justification and sanctification.

In Catholic theology "sanctification" retains the idea of separation from the world. The moral dimension is not forgotten but the primary emphasis is on separation. That is why you can hear Catholics speak of "the sanctified life" by which is meant life in separation from worldly concerns such as one might experience in a monastic discipline. You can also hear Catholics speak of a sanctified person by which is meant someone who is godly, good, and separate from worldly concerns.

The council of Trent wrote of its intention "to expound to all the faithful of Christ the true and sound doctrine touching the said Justification; which (doctrine) the sun of justice, Christ Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, taught, which the apostles transmitted, and which the Catholic Church, the Holy Ghost reminding her thereof, has always retained; most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared."

The council then went on to write
CHAPTER I.
On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.​
So no one can rightly contend that Catholic believe that anybody (Jew of Gentile) saves themselves. The council continued writing
CHAPTER II.
On the dispensation and mystery of Christ's advent.

Whence it came to pass, that the heavenly Father, the father of mercies and the God of all comfort, when that blessed fulness of the time was come, sent unto men, Jesus Christ, His own Son-who had been, both before the Law, and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised-that He might both redeem the Jews who were under the Law, and that the Gentiles, who followed not after justice, might attain to justice, and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God hath proposed as a propitiator, through faith in his blood, for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world.

CHAPTER III.
Who are justified through Christ.

But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.

CHAPTER IV.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.​
I quoted from the council of Trent because it was called specifically to deal with reform in the Catholic Church and to combat the heresies that were propagated among Protestants at the time of the "Protestant Reformation". It ought to be evident that the fathers at the council of Trent saw their teaching as the teaching of Christ. And it ought to be clear that the council fathers at Trent did not teach that anybody saved themselves, though some in this thread have repeatedly and incorrectly asserted otherwise.
 

Josiah

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See posts 2, 3 and 8.

The Council of Trent declared the Lutheran view to be "anathema" and condemned it as heresy. OBVIOUSLY, the Catholics view on justification (whatever that is) is radically different than what it so boldly condemned.
 

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See posts 2, 3 and 8.

The Council of Trent declared the Lutheran view to be "anathema" and condemned it as heresy. OBVIOUSLY, the Catholics view on justification (whatever that is) is radically different than what it so boldly condemned.

When groups condemn each other, there are two possibilities. One is that their views are different. The other is that they misunderstand (or misrepresent) what the others are saying. I think most scholars believe there was a substantial amount of the latter involved in Trent (and Protestant equivalents). I do believe there are still significant differences, but finding them requires care, so as not to be confused by differences in terminology.
 

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You remind me of Luther before he understood justification. I believe he climbed stone stairs on his knees in an attempt to suffer for God. If you think God finds your willingness to damage your body to show your dedication pleasing to Him, then bust your knees up to your hearts content. Paul wrote to the Galatians as a counter to those who wanted to abuse themselves in an attempt to be self-righteous.
Are we justified by our works or by God's grace?

You are drawing the wrong teaching from the story,
which was showing the ontological asking for,
and then actual and real receiving of,
the Grace of God...

It had nothing to do with busting knees...

And eventually, mind you, I will recover,
however slightly it may prove to work out,
from being compared to Luther... :)

So then how do you understand Christ's words in Matt. 11:12

And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the Kingdom of heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.


Do you not understand denial of self...
to be a violent act?


Arsenios
 

Josiah

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When groups condemn each other, there are two possibilities. One is that their views are different. The other is that they misunderstand (or misrepresent) what the others are saying. I think most scholars believe there was a substantial amount of the latter involved in Trent (and Protestant equivalents). I do believe there are still significant differences, but finding them requires care, so as not to be confused by differences in terminology.


A valid point.... and there are liberal Lutherans and liberal Catholics that would agree that Trent just REALLY goofed (big time).

I find it rather incredible. I probably just have a higher regard for Catholic scholarship than is typical in Catholicism (and much of Lutheranism) these days. I don't think the RCC would go to such enormous lengths to CONDEMN (in the strongest, boldest, biggest way possible) about one-third of Christians for the greatest heresy possible without being SURE. I don't think the Catholic Church would have caused the second largest split in the history of Christianity without being SURE. They had years (decades) of discussions with Luther himself and with hundreds of Lutheran theologians before the Council of Trent made these very, very bold anathemas.


In posts 2, 3 and 8... I attempt to share what the Lutheran position is. So far, no one (Lutheran, Catholic or otherwise) has disagreed with my description of it (it's all in our Confessions). And it is simply a historical fact that the Catholic Church at its Council of Trent condemned it in the boldest way possible. Unless the RCC was just entirely ignorant or flippant or careless when splitting itself and condemning one-third of Christians, then I find no other possibility than that the Catholic position (whatever that is) MUST be very radically different. Since it is difficult to determine WHAT the RCC view is here (I gave up even trying), we can at least do this: Look at the Lutheran view and know that in Catholicism, that's anathema, heresy of the worst kind, horrible enough to justify the enormous things the RCC did over it.

I think it significant too that Trent did NOT say, "Lutheranism says too little" or "Lutheranism says too much" or "Lutheranism is changing the definitions of things." It officially declared Lutherans to be heretics of the worse kind, their view being anathema. Trent declared that it's NOT a case of speaking differently or to different issues, it is a case of officially declaring the Lutheran position heretical, condemnable, anathema. WHATEVER the RC position may be, it MUST be radically and boldly in conflict with what it declared to be heresy of the worse kind.
 

MennoSota

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You are drawing the wrong teaching from the story,
which was showing the ontological asking for,
and then actual and real receiving of,
the Grace of God...

It had nothing to do with busting knees...

And eventually, mind you, I will recover,
however slightly it may prove to work out,
from being compared to Luther... :)

So then how do you understand Christ's words in Matt. 11:12

And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the Kingdom of heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.


Do you not understand denial of self...
to be a violent act?


Arsenios

The violent are those rebels who are against the Kingdom of God and want to stop it from going foward. The violent are NOT those persons who are children of the Sovereign King.
The context of Matthew 11 bears this out.
Matthew 11:7-13
[7]As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began talking about him to the crowds. “What kind of man did you go into the wilderness to see? Was he a weak reed, swayed by every breath of wind?
[8]Or were you expecting to see a man dressed in expensive clothes? No, people with expensive clothes live in palaces.
[9]Were you looking for a prophet? Yes, and he is more than a prophet.
[10]John is the man to whom the Scriptures refer when they say, ‘Look, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, *** and he will prepare your way before you.’
[11]“I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is!
[12]And from the time John the Baptist began preaching until now, the Kingdom of Heaven has been forcefully advancing, and violent people are attacking it.
[13]For before John came, all the prophets and the law of Moses looked forward to this present time.
 

MennoSota

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A valid point.... and there are liberal Lutherans and liberal Catholics that would agree that Trent just REALLY goofed (big time).

I find it rather incredible. I probably just have a higher regard for Catholic scholarship than is typical in Catholicism (and much of Lutheranism) these days. I don't think the RCC would go to such enormous lengths to CONDEMN (in the strongest, boldest, biggest way possible) about one-third of Christians for the greatest heresy possible without being SURE. I don't think the Catholic Church would have caused the second largest split in the history of Christianity without being SURE. They had years (decades) of discussions with Luther himself and with hundreds of Lutheran theologians before the Council of Trent made these very, very bold anathemas.


In posts 2, 3 and 8... I attempt to share what the Lutheran position is. So far, no one (Lutheran, Catholic or otherwise) has disagreed with my description of it (it's all in our Confessions). And it is simply a historical fact that the Catholic Church at its Council of Trent condemned it in the boldest way possible. Unless the RCC was just entirely ignorant or flippant or careless when splitting itself and condemning one-third of Christians, then I find no other possibility than that the Catholic position (whatever that is) MUST be very radically different. Since it is difficult to determine WHAT the RCC view is here (I gave up even trying), we can at least do this: Look at the Lutheran view and know that in Catholicism, that's anathema, heresy of the worst kind, horrible enough to justify the enormous things the RCC did over it.

I think it significant too that Trent did NOT say, "Lutheranism says too little" or "Lutheranism says too much" or "Lutheranism is changing the definitions of things." It officially declared Lutherans to be heretics of the worse kind, their view being anathema. Trent declared that it's NOT a case of speaking differently or to different issues, it is a case of officially declaring the Lutheran position heretical, condemnable, anathema. WHATEVER the RC position may be, it MUST be radically and boldly in conflict with what it declared to be heresy of the worse kind.
One must understand that the Roman church was intertwined with the Roman government and thus would not blanch at murdering and butchering anyone who threatened their economic prosperity and power. History bears this out repeatedly. The council of Trent represents the tipping point where Rome fully embraces its heresy in the attempt to wrestle back full control over everyone found in the empire.
 

Arsenios

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How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
Ephesians 1:3-14

I don't think that your words above are from Ephesians...

Nor are these below:

[14]The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

Here is the text...

Eph 1:14 ὅς ἐστιν ἀρραβὼν τῆς κληρονομίας ἡμῶν, εἰς ἀπολύτρωσιν τῆς περιποιήσεως, εἰς ἔπαινον τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ.

Which is the earnest of our inheritance
unto the redemption of the possession,
unto the praise of His Glory.


No one seems to know what the Gift of God IS...
Eph 2:8
For by Grace are ye Saved through the Faith...
And this not out of yourselves...
Of God the Gift...


What IS this Gift that is Salvation?



Arsenios
 

Josiah

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One must understand that the Roman church was intertwined with the Roman government and thus would not blanch at murdering and butchering anyone who threatened their economic prosperity and power. History bears this out repeatedly. The council of Trent represents the tipping point where Rome fully embraces its heresy in the attempt to wrestle back full control over everyone found in the empire.


Valid perspective..... I guess I'm just not as negative regarding the Catholic Church on that than you. IMO, it is extremely likely that the RCC understood and was sincere. And thus we can know that whatever the RC position is on this, it is RADICALLY different than the Lutheran one (posts 2, 3, 8); we may not be able to clearly say "it is THIS" but we can very clearly way "It's radically different than THAT."
 

Arsenios

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(The Gift is: )Heaven rather than Hell.....
justification rather than damnation.....
life rather than death.....
forgiveness rather than punishment.

Arsenios said:
So I want this Gift too...
What do I have to do for God to freely Give it to me?


Nothing.
You answered your own question in the question since "give" indicates a gift rather than a payment or reward.
- Josiah

So I can just grab a beer and the remote and some chips and dip and turn on the Game and yell at my wife and kids and beat them when they do not serve me enough? And continue grabbing the waitress too? And demanding my government benefits when I feel bored?

Did not Christ show something different in the parable of the talents?

Arsenios
 

hedrick

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I find it rather incredible. I probably just have a higher regard for Catholic scholarship than is typical in Catholicism (and much of Lutheranism) these days. I don't think the RCC would go to such enormous lengths to CONDEMN (in the strongest, boldest, biggest way possible) about one-third of Christians for the greatest heresy possible without being SURE. I don't think the Catholic Church would have caused the second largest split in the history of Christianity without being SURE. They had years (decades) of discussions with Luther himself and with hundreds of Lutheran theologians before the Council of Trent made these very, very bold anathemas. d boldly in conflict with what it declared to be heresy of the worse kind.
Lutheranism was a threat for reasons other than justification. It had removed whole areas from the Catholic Church, and attacked the Church's legitimacy. I find it quite credible that the 16th Cent RCC would adopt hostile understandings of Protestant theology.

This is not the first time. I think it's pretty clear that the condemnation of Theodore of Mopsuestia was for political reasons. As in the 16th Cent there were significant differences in terminology, complicated by differences in language. But based on currently known documents, it appears that Theodore was substantially orthodox.

There have been arguments between Lutherans and Calvinists that seem to be influenced as much by institutional needs to maintain boundaries than actual differences.

There are surely other examples.

I remind you that I'm not claiming Protestant and Catholic doctrines are the same, after necessary translation, just that many of the differences are due to differences in language and conceptual structure. The Joint Commission did their best to reconcile them. They concluded that there isn't a blatant contradiction, but not that they're the same. And I think they were being a bit optimistic. However the remaining differences appear to be of the same level as other differences that have historically been tolerated.
 
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Arsenios

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As to what "saved" means, Jesus seems to use it primarily for a permanent change in direction, from moving someone from being a "sinner" to being a follower of Jesus. (I quote "sinner" because it seems clear from context that Jesus understands that even his followers sin. When he uses the term "sinner" I think he's echoing standard Jewish terminology where it refers to someone who ignores the Law, and sins unrepentantly.) He also sometimes refers to eschatological salvation.

I would normally say that it's actually broader than that, and includes the whole process of making us into Christ's image. But it's not so clear that Jesus actually uses it this way.

OK - So when Christ blinded Saul on the Road to Damascus, He asked this:
"Saul, Saul! Why are you persecuting ME?"

So since all ol' Saul had been doing was cleaning up after a bunch of rag-tag Jewish false-believers, how COULD Christ call those followers of His ME???

Had ProtoMartyr Stephen receive the "Gift" of Salvation?
And if yes, and it IS yes, what IS this Gift such that Christ calls Stephen ME?


Arsenios
 

Josiah

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So I can just grab a beer and the remote and some chips and dip and turn on the Game and yell at my wife and kids and beat them when they do not serve me enough? And continue grabbing the waitress too? And demanding my government benefits when I feel bored? Did not Christ show something different in the parable of the talents?

[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]


From the Protestant perspective, you are mixing two different things..... I suggest you re-read what I've posted to you here.

In JUSTIFICATION (narrow), we simply receive a GIFT, and inheritance. The DEAD are GIVEN life. "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Author and GIVER of life." The dead can't give themselves life, God does that. Here, Jesus is the Savior. If it is true that Jesus is the Savior (and Protestants believe that IS the Chief and defining doctrine of Christianity) then Jesus does the saving. If I save myself by doing x,y,z then I'm the savior of myself (and Jesus is irrelevant, as Scripture states).

In SANCTIFICATION (narrow) those who have been GIVEN life, who have been adopted into His family by God our Father, who now have the empowering Spriit - THEY are called to grow and mature and become ever more Christ like. They are called to love even as God loves. To be holy and righteous and morally perfect even as God is. To forgive as we have FIRST been forgiven..... to love even our enemies as God first loved us who were then His enemies.... to go and make disciples.... to use our God-GIVEN life to live for others.

As I've tried to share repeatedly now, in Protestantism, Justification and Sanctification (in the above narrow senses) are INSEPARABLE and both a part of the bigger issue of soteriology - they just aren't THE SAME THING and are not to be entangled, confused and blended - that by necessity leads to synergism and Pelagianism and a host of other problems. Just as Protestants accept Law AND Gospel - both.... 100%..... fully but don't confuse them so that we just have a watered-down meaningless bend of the two, so we accept both Justification AND Sanctification -both, fully, 100% - inseparable, necessary - just not the same thing and not to be confused.


Friend, I was born on January 23, 1988. I'D claim that God GAVE me physical life 9 months or so before that. What did I do to earn that gift? Nothing - which is why it is a GIFT. And why we proclaim God as the "GIVER of life." But when I was born (in my case, by C-Section, I did NOTHING, I wasn't even conscience or breathing), almost immediately I was called by God, my parents and society to grow - to become a mature, responsible, giving, serving, loving, moral ADULT (all empowered and directed by the Life-Giver). Now, did my efforts to grow up cause me to receive life on roughly April 23, 1987? MY position would be, no. BUT my being given life means I am called to live - as one given life. My being given life and my living life as the Giver calls and empowers are NOT the same thing.... and should not be confused..... but they are inseparable and part of the same issue. Similar to the issue here.....


I hope that helps....



hedrick said:
Lutheranism was a threat for reasons other than justification


Of course, but Trent makes it VERY clear: the excommunication, the enormous split the RCC made to itself, the anathema, the condemnation was over the Lutheran view of Justification (see posts 2, 4, 8). Unless one holds that the RCC just profoundly LIED or was profoundly IGNORANT and MISTAKEN, then I think it is reasonable to conclude that in the very, very studied and unnamious opinion of the top Catholic theologians of the day - after decades of talking with Luther and Lutherans - concluded (officially) that the Lutheran position is heresy of the worse kind, anathema, apostate... and thus the Catholic position MUST be very radically different. We could address OTHER issues of dispute, but this thread is solely about Justification.



A blessed Easter season to you and yours....


- Josiah




.
 
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Arsenios

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I find it rather incredible... I don't think the Catholic Church would have caused the second largest split in the history of Christianity without being SURE... The Council of Trent made these very, very bold anathemas.

The Latins were suffering under the exercise of their possession of great worldly power...

Arsenios
 

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So I can just grab a beer and the remote and some chips and dip and turn on the Game and yell at my wife and kids and beat them when they do not serve me enough? And continue grabbing the waitress too? And demanding my government benefits when I feel bored?

Did not Christ show something different in the parable of the talents?

Arsenios

I realize I wasn't attacked, but my response is that it depends upon things not specified in your story. What you describe is certainly non-Christian. You will definitely have to face that fact in front of God. And no doubt make amends to your family.

However depending upon things not specified, it's still possible that the hypothetical you is a (bad) follower of Jesus. If so, you are justified by Christ's death, just like all the other not-so-perfect followers. This may sound unfair to the wife and kids. But I ask. In the afterlife, do you think they'd rather see you held accountable for his actions, and reconciled to them, or lost forever?

Jesus spoke a lot about judgement, including the parable of the talents. Generally the people he showed as rejected are those who rejected him and his message, or those who showed no fruit at all. He didn't show people as rejected due to specific sins. The person condemned in the parable of the talents didn't just produce limited results. He produced none. (And it's not clear how literally to take parables. The outer darkness is certainly a symbol for judgement, but I'm not sure this parable is intended to teach a full theology of the final judgement. Note that in the Lukan version, the only punishment is taking away his talent. It's the people who definitely reject Jesus that are killed. Actually Mat 25:30 looks like an addition. The lazy servant has already been punished with removing even what he had.)
 
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Arsenios

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[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]

From the Protestant perspective, you are mixing two different things..... I suggest you re-read what I've posted to you here.

Well, I quoted: "For by Grace are we Saved through Faith, and that not from ourselves: Of God the Gift." And I asked about this Gift, and how I might obtain it. What can I DO so that it will be GIVEN to me? And your answer is: "You can do absolutely NOTHING to receive this Gift."

I think I asked a fair question... The rest here is in my view a sidestepping of the issue raised...

In JUSTIFICATION (narrow), we simply receive a GIFT, and inheritance. The DEAD are GIVEN life. "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Author and GIVER of life." The dead can't give themselves life, God does that. Here, Jesus is the Savior. If it is true that Jesus is the Savior (and Protestants believe that IS the Chief and defining doctrine of Christianity) then Jesus does the saving. If I save myself by doing x,y,z then I'm the savior of myself (and Jesus is irrelevant, as Scripture states).

In SANCTIFICATION (narrow) those who have been GIVEN life, who have been adopted into His family by God our Father, who now have the empowering Spriit - THEY are called to grow and mature and become ever more Christ like. They are called to love even as God loves. To be holy and righteous and morally perfect even as God is. To forgive as we have FIRST been forgiven..... to love even our enemies as God first loved us who were then His enemies.... to go and make disciples.... to use our God-GIVEN life to live for others.

As I've tried to share repeatedly now, in Protestantism, Justification and Sanctification (in the above narrow senses) are INSEPARABLE and both a part of the bigger issue of soteriology - they just aren't THE SAME THING and are not to be entangled, confused and blended - that by necessity leads to synergism and Pelagianism and a host of other problems. Just as Protestants accept Law AND Gospel - both.... 100%..... fully but don't confuse them so that we just have a watered-down meaningless bend of the two, so we accept both Justification AND Sanctification -both, fully, 100% - inseparable, necessary - just not the same thing and not to be confused.

We have, you see, been over this many times already...

Friend, I was born on January 23, 1988.

These days, when people ask me how old I am, I like to say that I was 44 in '88! So you are a 30 year old father and husband - I get it...

I'D claim that God GAVE me physical life 9 months or so before that. What did I do to earn that gift? Nothing - which is why it is a GIFT.

No question...

And why we proclaim God as the "GIVER of life."

"The Lord and Giver of Life" - The life we have is death, but God gives Life...
There is a difference between life and Life...

But when I was born (in my case, by C-Section, I did NOTHING, I wasn't even conscious or breathing), almost immediately I was called by God, my parents and society to grow - to become a mature, responsible, giving, serving, loving, moral ADULT (all empowered and directed by the Life-Giver). Now, did my efforts to grow up cause me to receive life on roughly April 23, 1987?

Those efforts but developed what you were given...

MY position would be, no.

Mine too...

BUT my being given life means I am called to live - as one given life.

Exactly...

My being given life and my living life as the Giver calls and empowers are NOT the same thing.... and should not be confused..... but they are inseparable and part of the same issue. Similar to the issue here.....

They are very different...

I hope that helps....

Greatly - I am not confusing the two... I am speaking as a man without Salvation, say having encountered Paul in Athens, and I want to become Illumined and Joy-filled as Paul was... And I ask you, or Paul, what can I DO to receive this Gift of Salvation that YOU have?

And I think you clear answer was: "Nothing..."

I disagree... I would tell me to amend my life by repenting from sin and seek Baptism into Christ...

A blessed Easter season to you and yours....
- Josiah

Back at ya, my Brother!

The Leave-Taking of Pascha is in three weeks...

Christos Anesti!

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I realize I wasn't attacked, but my response is that it depends upon things not specified in your story. What you describe is certainly non-Christian. You will definitely have to face that fact in front of God. And no doubt make amends to your family.

However depending upon things not specified, it's still possible that the hypothetical you is a (bad) follower of Jesus. If so, you are justified by Christ's death, just like all the other not-so-perfect followers. This may sound unfair to the wife and kids. But I ask. In the afterlife, do you think they'd rather see you held accountable for his actions, and reconciled to them, or lost forever?

Jesus spoke a lot about judgement, including the parable of the talents. Generally the people he showed as rejected are those who rejected him and his message, or those who showed no fruit at all. He didn't show people as rejected due to specific sins. The person condemned in the parable of the talents didn't just produce limited results. He produced none. (And it's not clear how literally to take parables. The outer darkness is certainly a symbol for judgement, but I'm not sure this parable is intended to teach a full theology of the final judgement. Note that in the Lukan version, the only punishment is taking away his talent. It's the people who definitely reject Jesus that are killed.)

I was focusing on the practical implications of being able to do NOTHING for the sake of attaining one's own Salvation which IS the Gift of God...

For the Orthodox, Praxis is everything - The Original Christians were called "The People of the Way", and this referred to their MANNER of Life...

I mean, NOTHING is a MONSTER word...

Arsenios
 

hedrick

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I was focusing on the practical implications of being able to do NOTHING for the sake of attaining one's own Salvation which IS the Gift of God...

For the Orthodox, Praxis is everything - The Original Christians were called "The People of the Way", and this referred to their MANNER of Life...

I mean, NOTHING is a MONSTER word...

Arsenios

In my opinion, Christ forgives us and makes us his before we do anything. (Indeed you can argue that he did that 2000 years ago.) However once that happens, we're expected to follow him, and will be held accountable for what we do. We're held accountable, however, as followers of varying degrees of faithfulness.

So NOTHING refers to what we did to become acceptable to God, not what we do as his followers. To my knowledge this is what Lutherans say as well.

I'm not referring to "salvation" because it has different definitions in the varying theologies we're talking about.
 
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