Can babies be conscious of their baptism?

[Josiah]

A. That is a reference to Spirit baptism not water baptism.

You might want to read Ephesians 4:5.

Second, baptism always happens after adoption

The Bible never states that.

not as a means of being adopted. If it wasn't means, then salvation would be by works, not grace.

So, according to your argument, God is rendered impotent if any means or effort is involved... God CANNOT give faith/life unless there is NOTHING and NO ONE and NO EFFORT involved. Thus, your worship services are closed to non-believers (since God can't give them anything if people and effort and means are involved), you send no missionaries, you have no evangelism, your church forbids any to give out bibles..... Amazing how great the limits you put on God, my friend..... Why, you must be so angry at Billy Graham - who prepares sermons (work) and quotes Scripture (uses means) invites people to listen (work on his part and on the receivers)... All aimed especially at unbelievers!!!! According to you, all that makes salvation by works.


See my signature (the words below the bottom line in each of my posts)..... Yes, Baptism involves a tiny bit of action by the minister - but that's not what saves anymore than preaching the Gospel involves a dab of work by your minister but that's not what saves. The Bible says that Scripture does not return to Him void but accomplishes all for which He sent it - BUT, my friend, it's not the WORK of reading or preaching it that saves, it's God USING that to perform HIS work. "Means of grace" this is called in orthodox theology, a "tool in the hands of the Carpenter." I reject your premise that if any human effort is involved, ergo the justification is a result of the human effort and not God's. And I reject your idea that God is impotent to use means but is so limited that He can ONLY give faith in a complete vacuum - if you render God impotent by quoting John 3:16, then that person is doomed to hell because you just rendered God impotent to do His will because now there's work involved (you saying that verse) and you thus rendered God impotent.


Back to the issue of this thread.....



- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

A lot of people make that same mistake and think that being baptized is somehow a "work." Along with getting past the idea that baptism guarantees salvation, it would help our discussions if we could also ditch the notion that if something takes a bit of motion, its a "work" in the theological sense.

This is no mistake on my part.

 

[MennoSota]

It is possible, but just as it is "possible" to refuse to be immunized against diphtheria and polio and yet not contract those diseases, what is the point in refusing to receive God's grace offered in baptism?

God doesn't offer grace in baptism.
Grace is already given, then baptism takes place. You place the cart before the horse.

 

[MennoSota]

There is one baptism. In (water baptism) God gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-39) and it is a gift that is also for our children. One baptism. Not two. The Holy Spirit is not meant to be separated from our baptism (think water and Jesus getting baptized and the Holy Spirit over Him).

There is one baptism. The baptism of the Spirit. Water accomplishes nothing. A baptism ceremony is merely an outward symbol of what God has already accomplished.
Since you cannot tell God that He has already extended grace to an infant, you cannot baptize an infant. God's grace must be established first in the individual's life, then baptism is chosen. This is always done in this way when we observe scripture. You put the cart before the horse.

 

[MennoSota]

"be baptized" is not something I can work on myself. That's why baptism is God's work. There is only one baptism and God has attached promises to it. I can't baptize myself.

Water baptism is something you do.
The baptism if the Spirit is all God.
There is one effectual baptism...the baptism of the Spirit.

 

[MennoSota]

You might want to read Ephesians 4:5.





The Bible never states that.





So, according to your argument, God is rendered impotent if any means or effort is involved... God CANNOT give faith/life unless there is NOTHING and NO ONE and NO EFFORT involved. Thus, your worship services are closed to non-believers (since God can't give them anything if people and effort and means are involved), you send no missionaries, you have no evangelism, your church forbids any to give out bibles..... Amazing how great the limits you put on God, my friend..... Why, you must be so angry at Billy Graham - who prepares sermons (work) and quotes Scripture (uses means) invites people to listen (work on his part and on the receivers)... All aimed especially at unbelievers!!!! According to you, all that makes salvation by works.


See my signature (the words below the bottom line in each of my posts)..... Yes, Baptism involves a tiny bit of action by the minister - but that's not what saves anymore than preaching the Gospel involves a dab of work by your minister but that's not what saves. The Bible says that Scripture does not return to Him void but accomplishes all for which He sent it - BUT, my friend, it's not the WORK of reading or preaching it that saves, it's God USING that to perform HIS work. "Means of grace" this is called in orthodox theology, a "tool in the hands of the Carpenter." I reject your premise that if any human effort is involved, ergo the justification is a result of the human effort and not God's. And I reject your idea that God is impotent to use means but is so limited that He can ONLY give faith in a complete vacuum - if you render God impotent by quoting John 3:16, then that person is doomed to hell because you just rendered God impotent to do His will because now there's work involved (you saying that verse) and you thus rendered God impotent.


Back to the issue of this thread.....



- Josiah




.

Ephesians 4:4-6
[4]For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future.
[5]There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6]one God and Father of all, who is over all, in all, and living through all.

There is one effectual baptism. The baptism of the Spirit, as indicated in Ephesians 4. Thank you for the reference as it makes my point quite clearly.

Every place in scripture we see God's adoptive grace coming first, followed by a symbolic baptism later. Again, you put the cart before the horse. That is something God never does.

 

[Lamb]

"be baptized" You can't do that to yourself. It's passive language meaning something is happening to you.

The Law shows us our sins. Baptism does no such thing which makes it not law but Gospel. With the Gospel, GOD is doing something. In baptism, GOD is the one working. Not us.

 

[Josiah]

Ephesians 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism

There is one effectual baptism. The baptism of the Spirit, as indicated in Ephesians 4. Thank you for the reference as it makes my point quite clearly.

There is ONE baptism according to God. So, IMO, your premise that there are TWO is, well, wrong. The Bible does NOT say, "There are TWO baptisms, but the one involving water is worthless."

Every place in scripture we see God's adoptive grace coming first, followed by a symbolic baptism later.

1. That's simply not true. For just one example, see First Corinthians 1:16. Now, PROVE that EVERY member of this household had 1) Attained the magical age of X, 2) Had first said the Sinner's Prayer and proclaimed their coming to faith 3) were not baptized with water by Paul but by a second baptism that of the Spirit. Prove that for EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL of this househood. Or maybe your premise is baseless. Even if it mattered.


2. So what if it is? I reject your premise that we (and evidently God) can't do something unless that practice is specifically illustrated in the examples that happen to be recorded in the Bible. You reject your own premise too since you are posting on the internet, something NEVER illustrated in the Bible and thus, by your rubric, is disallowed.



- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

Ephesians 4:4-6
[4]For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future.
[5]There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6]one God and Father of all, who is over all, in all, and living through all.

There is one effectual baptism. The baptism of the Spirit, as indicated in Ephesians 4. Thank you for the reference as it makes my point quite clearly.


There is ONE baptism according to God. So, IMO, your premise that there are TWO is, well, wrong.




1. That's simply not true.

2. So what if it is? I reject your premise that we (and evidently God) can't do something unless that practice is specifically illustrated in the examples that happen to be recorded in the Bible. You reject your own premise too since you are posting on the internet, something NEVER illustrated in the Bible and thus, by your rubric, is disallowed.



- Josiah

Your insistence on water baptism as effectual is wrong.
There is only one baptism...that baptism of the Holy Spirit.
You have given power to a water ceremony that has no power. You have lifted up a ceremony and ignored the actual baptism performed by God. It's the equivalent of lifting up an animal sacrifice as effectual while ignoring Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The first is ceremonial. The second is effectual.
Josiah, you put the cart before the horse, which is completely wrong.

 

[psalms 91]

Your insistence on water baptism as effectual is wrong.
There is only one baptism...that baptism of the Holy Spirit.
You have given power to a water ceremony that has no power. You have lifted up a ceremony and ignored the actual baptism performed by God. It's the equivalent of lifting up an animal sacrifice as effectual while ignoring Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The first is ceremonial. The second is effectual.
Josiah, you put the cart before the horse, which is completely wrong.

Actually I am aware of the Holy Spirit baptism, watyer baptism, baptism of fire

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Quote the passage where God says he will give a child the gift of faith if parents baptize their infants.
Where is the vow that God makes to these parents so that he becomes obligated?

Why are you equating what God will do with what he is obligated to do. If I say "I will go to the store for you to buy bread" how does it then mean "I am obligated to go to the store for you to buy bread"?
God is not obligated, he just does.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

God doesn't offer grace in baptism.
Grace is already given, then baptism takes place. You place the cart before the horse.

Okay, so grace is limited? Got it

 

[Andrew]

A bunch of Patricks here

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[pinacled]

I was

 

[MennoSota]

Actually I am aware of the Holy Spirit baptism, watyer baptism, baptism of fire

The word "baptism" is just a greek word for immerse. Josiah trys to force it to only refer to water. Josiah is wrong.

 

[MennoSota]

Why are you equating what God will do with what he is obligated to do. If I say "I will go to the store for you to buy bread" how does it then mean "I am obligated to go to the store for you to buy bread"?
God is not obligated, he just does.

He doesn't "just save infants" because we sprinkle them with water and call it baptism.
People are forcing their church dogma upon God. This is wrong. Stop doing it.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The word "baptism" is just a greek (sic) word for immerse. Josiah trys (sic) to force it to only refer to water. Josiah is wrong.

The word "baptism" in Greek has more meanings than "immerse". A simple word study would help.

 

[MennoSota]

Okay, so grace is limited? Got it

Yes, God limits the extension of saving grace to those whom He chooses. Glad you have it.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

He doesn't "just save infants" because we sprinkle them with water and call it baptism.
People are forcing their church dogma upon God. This is wrong. Stop doing it.

That didn't answer my question

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yes, God limits the extension of saving grace to those whom He chooses. Glad you have it.

That didn't answer my question in context either. (I am, too. Praise God for His grace!)