Can babies be conscious of their baptism?

[atpollard]

I still stand by my belief that children are worthy like Jesus said, maybe baptism was made for adults such as when John baptised Jesus (both aged at around 30)

Here is a present:

1 Corinthians 7:14 NASB For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

An argument can be made from scripture that the children of Christian parents are sanctified and placed under the protection of the New Covenant with or without infant baptism ... just because God said so. In the OT covenant, this would be comparable to a female child being under the OT covenant without being ‘circumcised’.

 

[Albion]

I still stand by my belief that children are worthy like Jesus said

They're not...and Jesus didn't say they are.

But I'm just going by the word of God for that, not wishful thinking.

 

[Lamb]

I still stand by my belief that children are worthy like Jesus said, maybe baptism was made for adults such as when John baptised Jesus (both aged at around 30)

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

You do realize that in the days of Jesus that the age of 30 is the age when a man would be fully matured enough to be a rabbi. See Numbers 4:3 for reference.

 

[Albion]

Here is a present:

1 Corinthians 7:14 NASB For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

An argument can be made from scripture that the children of Christian parents are sanctified and placed under the protection of the New Covenant with or without infant baptism ....

Read the verses that lead up to this verse. They explain the actual meaning of 1 Cor. 7:14.

 

[Lamb]

Read the verses that lead up to this verse. They explain the actual meaning of 1 Cor. 7:14.

Yes, that section does not say that anyone has righteousness because of any parent. Our righteousness is only because of Jesus who was the anticipated Messiah of the OT.

 

[Lamb]

It's an irrelevant question regarding infant baptism as there is no correlation.
God made a direct command to Israel while they were slaves in Egypt as He brought judgment upon Egypt.
Where does God make a direct command to the Church to baptize their infant children as He brings destruction on non-Christians who hold us in slavery?
You're grasping at straws.

Ah, you missed the connection.

The point I was making is that can't God bring grace upon someone whether or not they are consciously aware of it at the time given? Such as the infants who were passed by at the Passover? That was due to God's grace. Did it matter whether they were consciously aware of it for it to happen? This thread is about babies and consciously receiving God's grace through baptism since DHoffmann stated that he felt they needed to be conscious in baptism.

 

[MennoSota]

Ah, you missed the connection.

The point I was making is that can't God bring grace upon someone whether or not they are consciously aware of it at the time given? Such as the infants who were passed by at the Passover? That was due to God's grace. Did it matter whether they were consciously aware of it for it to happen? This thread is about babies and consciously receiving God's grace through baptism since DHoffmann stated that he felt they needed to be conscious in baptism.

God showed mercy in the Passover. Israel was still bound in sin as would be shown at Mt Sinai.
Saving grace is God's choice for an individual adoption.

 

[Josiah]

, you don't think babies are conscious during their baptisms? Do you think they're conscious when they're being fed?

Why does it matter?

 

[Lamb]

Why does it matter?

With God, does it matter? I say that God can doesn't rely on anything from us (even our consciousness) in order to give us what He promises in baptism.

 

[Josiah]

Is faith given to an infant because a parent has them sprinkled by a priest or clergy?

No. But that doesn't mandate that ergo God is impotent to give it to whom He wills as He wills.

Is God obligated to give the child faith because the parents invoked a baptism ceremony upon their child?

No. It would make no difference if Aunt Zelda and Uncle Clem were at the Baptism.... God is obligated to do nothing but be true to His promises.... but then nearly all God does is not because He is legallisticly OBLIGATED to men to do something (God is Sovereign, not man) but because He is love, He is gracious and merciful and desires to bless (it's not all a matter of LAW to which God is subject, it's mostly a matter of God being loving, gracious, merciful, desiring to bless).

There is no biblical support for such

My response: There is no biblical support that Jesus misspoke in the Great Commission and SHOULD have said, "Go and baptize and teach ONLY those over the age of X who have adequately repented of their sins and responded to an Altar Call and said the "Sinner's Prayer" but do NOT baptize or teach any others because I'm impotent to give those my gifts of faith and life."

a silent assumption

You mean the one that assumes, "God is impotent to give His gifts to any under the age of X?" Or the one that assumes, "Baptism is so stressed in Scripture because it does nothing at all?" Or the one that assumes, "Jesus said to bring the little ones to him and not to hinder that but He MEANT to say only if they are over 4 feet tall, weigh at least 80 pounds, are over the age of "X" and are capable of supplying their part of salvation because God is impotent to pull that off without our help?"

More so, does a man-made confirmation curriculum seal the deal that a person has in fact been given the gift of faith?

Could you quote that curriculum? Because mine said NOTHING OF THE SORT.



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

No. But that doesn't mandate that ergo God is impotent to give it to whom He wills as He wills.





No. It would make no difference if Aunt Zelda and Uncle Clem were at the Baptism.... God is obligated to do nothing but be true to His promises.... but then nearly all God does is not because He is legallisticly OBLIGATED to men to do something (God is Sovereign, not man) but because He is love, He is gracious and merciful and desires to bless (it's not all a matter of LAW to which God is subject, it's mostly a matter of God being loving, gracious, merciful, desiring to bless).






My response: There is no biblical support that Jesus misspoke in the Great Commission and SHOULD have said, "Go and baptize and teach ONLY those over the age of X who have adequately repented of their sins and responded to an Altar Call and said the "Sinner's Prayer" but do NOT baptize or teach any others because I'm impotent to give those my gifts of faith and life."






You mean the one that assumes, "God is impotent to give His gifts to any under the age of X?" Or the one that assumes, "Baptism is so stressed in Scripture because it does nothing at all?" Or the one that assumes, "Jesus said to bring the little ones to him and not to hinder that but He MEANT to say only if they are over 4 feet tall, weigh at least 80 pounds, are over the age of "X" and are capable of supplying their part of salvation because God is impotent to pull that off without our help?"





Could you quote that curriculum? Because mine said NOTHING OF THE SORT.



- Josiah

God doesn't promise salvation via infant baptism. Therefore anyone expecting Him to graciously save via infant baptism is presuming upon God that which He never promised.
The result is a false assurance of grace, based upon a hope that God will honor the parents intent and do what God never promised he would do.
The worst case scenario in this presumption is that millions of Lutherans and Catholics, etc., die apart from grace because they placed their trust in their baptism and confirmation classes, yet never were given the gift of faith through grace. Such a false assurance has already happened to millions. Why continue to propagate such a lie?

 

[Josiah]

God doesn't promise salvation via infant baptism

God doesn't command us to exclude those under the age of X.

God is not limited to obligations He has made. I disagree with your very limited view of God and what God can do; I don't think God is only able to do what He has promised to do; I think nearly all God does is not a matter of LEGALISTIC MANDATES to which God is subject but rather because God IS love, God IS gracious and merciful and giving..... His heart desires to bless.

"Baptism now saves you." There is that verse (although I know how some spin it 180 degrees). I just can't find the verse that says, "Baptism is SO stressed in Scripture and is a key part of the Great Commission because it does nothing at all." Or "God can't use Baptism for nothin', He just CAN'T."

based upon a hope that God will honor the parents intent and do what God never promised he would do.

I'm a former Catholic and now a Lutheran and friend, never in my life have I heard that from a Catholic or a Lutheran.... Baptism is based on God's command and grace, it has nothing to do with honoring parents or with "intent." Catholics and Lutherans believe that God is gracious, loving, merciful... and is not rendered impotent by those under the age of X (or even that God needs our help at all). Catholics and Lutherans believe that if Jesus MEANT the Great Commission to be limited to those over the age of X, over the IQ of X, with an educational level of X, of a certain race, color, ethnicity.... um..... He probably would have said so. We're not comfortable telling God "That doesn't make sense! You can' do this! You've commanded and so very much stressed something that is a waste of time and good water!"

The worst case scenario in this presumption is that millions of Lutherans and Catholics, etc., die apart from grace because they placed their trust in their baptism and confirmation classes, yet never were given the gift of faith through grace. Such a false assurance has already happened to millions. Why continue to propagate such a lie?

The worse case scenario of a Calvinists is that millions of them die apart from grace because they kept their children from the means of grace because they couldn't find the verse that listed their child's name among the Elect and because they didn't see that God was legalistically MANDATED to give their child faith and life.

Yes..... I suppose there are loving parents who share Christ with their child yet God never gives them faith. But then I think maybe it's more likely that there are parents who do NOT share Christ with their child and yet God never gives them faith.



Now, back to the issue.....



- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

God doesn't promise salvation via infant baptism.

God promises to clothe us in Christ's righteousness in baptism. Galatians 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Do you see the connection between having Christ's righteousness placed upon us for salvation?

 

[Albion]

God doesn't promise salvation via infant baptism. Therefore anyone expecting Him to graciously save via infant baptism is presuming upon God that which He never promised.

God doesn't promise salvation via adult baptism, either, so why is anyone advocating baptism at any time?

 

[MennoSota]

God promises to clothe us in Christ's righteousness in baptism. Galatians 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Do you see the connection between having Christ's righteousness placed upon us for salvation?

Again, that verse has nothing to do with infant baptism and nothing to do with water baptism. The verse even says it's an immersion into Christ. That is a reference to Spirit baptism not water baptism.
Second, baptism always happens after adoption, not as a means of being adopted. If it wasn't means, then salvation would be by works, not grace.

 

[MennoSota]

God doesn't promise salvation via adult baptism, either, so why is anyone advocating baptism at any time?

Right. Baptism is not a means of salvation.
Baptism is an outward symbol of God's inner work in graciously immersing us, by the Spirit, into Christ.
Thus, if a person is never water baptized they will still be saved by God’s grace.
However, will we obey God in outwardly declaring our inward baptism to others? Indeed we should.

 

[Albion]

Second, baptism always happens after adoption, not as a means of being adopted. If it wasn't means, then salvation would be by works, not grace.

A lot of people make that same mistake and think that being baptized is somehow a "work." Along with getting past the idea that baptism guarantees salvation, it would help our discussions if we could also ditch the notion that if something takes a bit of motion, its a "work" in the theological sense.

 

[Albion]

Right. Baptism is not a means of salvation.
Baptism is an outward symbol of God's inner work in graciously immersing us, by the Spirit, into Christ.
Thus, if a person is never water baptized they will still be saved by God’s grace.

It is possible, but just as it is "possible" to refuse to be immunized against diphtheria and polio and yet not contract those diseases, what is the point in refusing to receive God's grace offered in baptism?

 

[Lamb]

Again, that verse has nothing to do with infant baptism and nothing to do with water baptism. The verse even says it's an immersion into Christ. That is a reference to Spirit baptism not water baptism.
Second, baptism always happens after adoption, not as a means of being adopted. If it wasn't means, then salvation would be by works, not grace.

There is one baptism. In (water baptism) God gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-39) and it is a gift that is also for our children. One baptism. Not two. The Holy Spirit is not meant to be separated from our baptism (think water and Jesus getting baptized and the Holy Spirit over Him).

 

[Lamb]

Again, that verse has nothing to do with infant baptism and nothing to do with water baptism. The verse even says it's an immersion into Christ. That is a reference to Spirit baptism not water baptism.
Second, baptism always happens after adoption, not as a means of being adopted. If it wasn't means, then salvation would be by works, not grace.

"be baptized" is not something I can work on myself. That's why baptism is God's work. There is only one baptism and God has attached promises to it. I can't baptize myself.