Passive Righteousness

[popsthebuilder]

Exactly! With a dirty rag, what can it do? But when we're covered in Christ's righteousness then God sees us as He sees His Son!

Not if you neglect the free gift or the payment made for your sin.

As if the slavemaster is paid off in order for the slave to be free, but the slave chooses to be a bond servant instead; such is good and great unless your slave master is sin

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[popsthebuilder]

I have no idea what you are talking about in your response.
I take it you don't want the answer God provides in Romans 3-8.

Romans 3: 25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

(That doesn't seem to say we are righteous while in sin, or that the law of the Spirit isn't to be abided by by the believer in Christ)

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[popsthebuilder]

That false grace is just as dangerous as legalism. If ppl are told that the lost son who acts like a complete jerk and is called dead and lost, is saved but only has to get sanctified, who is gonna warn someone like that, that he needs to get saved? I have seen this a LOT in Holland and even pastors say: its fine hear. You do you. Actually that was the reason I backslid. If there had been one decent hell preacher, I even called a pastor for help, I would not have backslid.

Sounds like they are preaching for the masses to gain attendance and money.

Itching ears.

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[popsthebuilder]

Lewdness, turning Gods grace into lewdness. False teachers do that. They teach that our sins past present future are forgiven, you don't even have to say sorry or repent, its all done away no matter what you do. God is always happy w you and He sees you like Jesus, no matter what.

Very many seem to preach such, but even St. Paul exclaims that it is past sins that are paid for; those done before one receives knowledge of or faith in GOD.

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[popsthebuilder]

So the actual forgiveness wasn't achieved at the cross according to your beliefs? If it's not achieved until we ask and repent, how does that work with Jesus and the cross? Does He go back to die?

He is repeatedly crucified by those who repeatedly knowingly sin against the law of the Spirit that is written in their hearts and minds as believers in Christ.

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[popsthebuilder]

Without repentance there is no forgiveness, we must turn from our sin, that doesnt mean we will not do it anymore but it does mean we must try and and be sorrowful towards our sin

Indeed; sorrow/ shame of the conscience brings about repentance from sin.

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[Josiah]

The pricwe was paid for forgiveness but they are not forgiven until we ask and repent of them

I think things are getting confused.....


1. In JUSTIFICATION, one is simply GIVEN, BLESSED, ENLIVENED. We don't "ask" for anything. Forgiveness is GIVEN.

2. In SANCTIFICATION, yes - we are told to repent. A dead person can't ask for forgiveness (or anything for that matter cuz he's DEAD).... and God's forgiveness is NOT dependent on our repenting. Note for example Jesus from the Cross praying 'Father, FORGIVE THEM.... " Had His executioners all gotten down on their knees, tears falling from their faces, crying out "Have MERCY on us, forgive us, we ask in the Name of Jesus our Savior! We have totally stopped what we are doing in faith and are committed to NEVER doing this again!" Did they? No, they took GLEE in their horrific act... they had NO faith.... they had NO repentance... they stopped nothing. They were forgiven. Jesus asks for forgiveness to them BECAUSE God's grace is NOT dependent on our works Repentance is for OUR good.... not because it's a coin we put in the slot to which God (like a robot) must respond, not because God's mercy is simply a reward for our actions. Yes, we are called to repentance. No, God's mercy and grace are not dependent upon such so that forgivenss is a result of our work not God's heart.


But I think we've gotten off-topic



- Josiah

 

[tango]

We don't earn salvation. At all. Nothing we do will add to what Jesus bought for us at the cross with His blood. We have no righteousness of our own to add to the mix. It's all God's righteousness which is a HUGE necessity.

Of course it is, but that's a different point entirely. When Jesus says "follow me" it's an invitation. We are free to follow, or not follow, as we choose. If we follow, we get a free gift of salvation. If we don't follow, we don't get a free gift.

It's like the analogy of sending a check I mentioned. If you can't pay your debts and I send you a check to cover them all, that check does nothing for you unless you take it to the bank and cash it. It's the same with salvation - we can't pay the debt of our sin so Jesus did it for us. Effectively he mailed us a check to cover our debts but unless we accept it we're still on the hook.

To argue that we do literally nothing means either we are utterly predestined, in which case there's no point making much effort to do that "go into the world and preach the gospel" stuff because those who are predestined to be saved will be saved regardless, or that all of us will go to heaven because Jesus paid the debt of our sin whether we like it or not.

 

[tango]

That isn't a formula for salvation. But it is true that God will give us His Law to bring us to contrition and then He doesn't leave us there in despair. We confess to Him our sins and He will give us forgiveness. It's not a new forgiveness. It's what was earned at the cross. ALL our forgiveness comes from Jesus' death on the cross because that is what God accomplished for us since we can't get it anywhere else. He doles out that forgiveness from the cross more than we deserve. We don't earn it. We can ask for it, yes and He will give. He will give more and more and more so much more that it seems impossible but with God it's not.

What about that very first time we confess our sins? We surely cannot accept a Savior without first recognising that we need a Savior. And the only reason we need a Savior is because we can't save ourselves.

So that very first time we call on God, "forgive me", we are forgiven. How, then, are we saved if not by making the decision to accept the offer of forgiveness? You keep coming back to the idea that God does all the work but nobody is disputing that - the associated issue is whether we at least step up and accept it, or whether we do literally nothing. Hence my analogy of mailing a check - you did nothing to deserve it, the person mailing the check makes all your debts go away, but unless you accept the check (i.e. take it to the bank and cash it) it does you no good at all.

 

[Josiah]

Of course it is, but that's a different point entirely. When Jesus says "follow me" it's an invitation. We are free to follow, or not follow, as we choose. If we follow, we get a free gift of salvation. If we don't follow, we don't get a free gift.

Then it's not a free gift AT ALL. It's the reward for you following. In that senario, the Savior is not Jesus but self. It's not grace but works. In that case, Jesus is AT MOST a possibility-maker but in no way the Savior.

It's like the analogy of sending a check I mentioned. If you can't pay your debts and I send you a check to cover them all, that check does nothing for you unless you take it to the bank and cash it. It's the same with salvation - we can't pay the debt of our sin so Jesus did it for us. Effectively he mailed us a check to cover our debts but unless we accept it we're still on the hook.

For God, it's direct deposit LOL....

No, in the example you used, Jesus just opens the door to heaven but you get through it because of YOU - not grace, not mercy, not the gift of God, not the blessing of God, not an inheritance. Jesus is not in any sense the Savior, the GIVER of life, but just a possibility-maker. I don't believe that God is the OFFERER of life but (as the ancient creed says) the GIVER of life.

To argue that we do literally nothing means either we are utterly predestined

Which of course is exactly what the Bible says, what the Ecumenical Council of Orange stated, what we confess in the Creed..... "You did not choose Me but I choose you" Jesus said. Yes, one who is DEAD has only one way of being ALIVE - it must be given to them (not just offered to them).

Consider we are in a morgue.... looking at a DEAD body.... you can say "Choose to come alive! Decide to live! Follow the living!" You can shout that forever, at a deafening level - and I assure you, the DEAD body won't do a thing. You can say "Jesus OFFERS you life!" You can shout that to the DEAD body all day long, as loud as you can and the DEAD isn't going to do a thing. God doesn't just hold an OFFER in front of us, God GIVES it to us. Not sending a DEAD person a check in the mail which of course he cannot fetch much less cash.... God does a direct deposit, God GIVES us life, God SAVES us, God ENLIVENS us, God is the GIVER of life (not offerer of life), Jesus is the Savior (not just the Possibility-Maker).


I'll admit there is mystery here.... but the Arminian theory to remove it destroys the Gospel IMO and contradicts a whole bunch of Scriptures. The Chief Article of the Christian faith is that Jesus IS THE Savior. Which means salvation is something Jesus DOES - not simply make possible. Until Calvin and Arminius came along in the 16th Century, both insisting that God's brain is subject to ours, both insisting that self is designated to make God "logical" and self is designated the "Answer Man" for God, for 1500 years, Christians left this where the Bible does and confessed we have some mystery here, we simply don't KNOW how this cranks out. BUT however it does, GOD is the GIVER of life (not offerer), Jesus is the Savior (not possibility-maker).... if we have justification/faith/spiritual life it is only and solely because GOD GAVE IT TO US, as the free gift of God, not because of ANYTHING we think/say/do (our works) but because of what JESUS did (His works, His Cross, His heart, His mercy, His grace). Why don't all have this? God doesn't say beyond the point that not all have faith (which we admit doesn't answer the question). For 1500 years, Christians were okay with that - because that's what the Bible says, that's what Jesus taught. Jakob Arminius and John Calvin both came up with LOGICAL "answers" but they both destroy Christianity in the process (or at least seriously threaten it).





A very important discussion.... it is the heart and core of Christianity.



- Josiah



.

 

[Imalive]

Then it's not a free gift AT ALL. It's the reward for you following. In that senario, the Savior is not Jesus but self. It's not grace but works. In that case, Jesus is AT MOST a possibility-maker but in no way the Savior.





For God, it's direct deposit LOL....

No, in the example you used, Jesus just opens the door to heaven but you get through it because of YOU - not grace, not mercy, not the gift of God, not the blessing of God, not an inheritance. Jesus is not in any sense the Savior, the GIVER of life, but just a possibility-maker. I don't believe that God is the OFFERER of life but (as the ancient creed says) the GIVER of life.







Which of course is exactly what the Bible says, what the Ecumenical Council of Orange stated, what we confess in the Creed..... "You did not choose Me but I choose you" Jesus said. Yes, one who is DEAD has only one way of being ALIVE - it must be given to them (not just offered to them).

Consider we are in a morgue.... looking at a DEAD body.... you can say "Choose to come alive! Decide to live! Follow the living!" You can shout that forever, at a deafening level - and I assure you, the DEAD body won't do a thing. You can say "Jesus OFFERS you life!" You can shout that to the DEAD body all day long, as loud as you can and the DEAD isn't going to do a thing. God doesn't just hold an OFFER in front of us, God GIVES it to us. Not sending a DEAD person a check in the mail which of course he cannot fetch much less cash.... God does a direct deposit, God GIVES us life, God SAVES us, God ENLIVENS us, God is the GIVER of life (not offerer of life), Jesus is the Savior (not just the Possibility-Maker).


I'll admit there is mystery here.... but the Arminian theory to remove it destroys the Gospel IMO and contradicts a whole bunch of Scriptures. The Chief Article of the Christian faith is that Jesus IS THE Savior. Which means salvation is something Jesus DOES - not simply make possible. Until Calvin and Arminius came along in the 16th Century, both insisting that God's brain is subject to ours, both insisting that self is designated to make God "logical" and self is designated the "Answer Man" for God, for 1500 years, Christians left this where the Bible does and confessed we have some mystery here, we simply don't KNOW how this cranks out. BUT however it does, GOD is the GIVER of life (not offerer), Jesus is the Savior (not possibility-maker).... if we have justification/faith/spiritual life it is only and solely because GOD GAVE IT TO US, as the free gift of God, not because of ANYTHING we think/say/do (our works) but because of what JESUS did (His works, His Cross, His heart, His mercy, His grace). Why don't all have this? God doesn't say beyond the point that not all have faith (which we admit doesn't answer the question). For 1500 years, Christians were okay with that - because that's what the Bible says, that's what Jesus taught. Jakob Arminius and John Calvin both came up with LOGICAL "answers" but they both destroy Christianity in the process (or at least seriously threaten it).





A very important discussion.... it is the heart and core of Christianity.



- Josiah



.



- Josiah

It is a free gift and rewards you can get too. The ones who didnt follow anymore in John 6 rejected the free gift. Accept His is follow Him. Accept the devils gift is follow him. We may choose.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Of course it is, but that's a different point entirely. When Jesus says "follow me" it's an invitation. We are free to follow, or not follow, as we choose. If we follow, we get a free gift of salvation. If we don't follow, we don't get a free gift.

It's like the analogy of sending a check I mentioned. If you can't pay your debts and I send you a check to cover them all, that check does nothing for you unless you take it to the bank and cash it. It's the same with salvation - we can't pay the debt of our sin so Jesus did it for us. Effectively he mailed us a check to cover our debts but unless we accept it we're still on the hook.

To argue that we do literally nothing means either we are utterly predestined, in which case there's no point making much effort to do that "go into the world and preach the gospel" stuff because those who are predestined to be saved will be saved regardless, or that all of us will go to heaven because Jesus paid the debt of our sin whether we like it or not.

Yet the flip side of such is that those destined to destruction cannot be saved regardless of moral living.

Such makes the Spirit of GOD out to be evil.

Wrong as wrong gets.

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[Josiah]

It is a free gift and rewards you can get too. The ones who didnt follow anymore in John 6 rejected the free gift. Accept His is follow Him. Accept the devils gift is follow him. We may choose.

.... we may choose to destroy life, not to create it. I agree, one who is ALIVE may commit "spiritual suicide" but I don't agree that the DEAD may choose life.


Again, Consider we are in a morgue.... looking at a DEAD body.... you can say "Choose to come alive! Decide to live! Follow the living!" You can shout that forever, at a deafening level - and I assure you, the DEAD body won't do a thing. You can say "Jesus OFFERS you life!" You can shout that to the DEAD body all day long, as loud as you can and the DEAD isn't going to do a thing. God doesn't just hold an OFFER in front of us, God GIVES it to us. Not sending a DEAD person a check in the mail which of course he cannot fetch much less cash.... God does a direct deposit, God GIVES us life, God SAVES us, God ENLIVENS us, God is the GIVER of life (not offerer of life), Jesus is the Savior (not just the Possibility-Maker).



- Josiah

 

[popsthebuilder]

Then it's not a free gift AT ALL. It's the reward for you following. In that senario, the Savior is not Jesus but self. It's not grace but works. In that case, Jesus is AT MOST a possibility-maker but in no way the Savior.





For God, it's direct deposit LOL....

No, in the example you used, Jesus just opens the door to heaven but you get through it because of YOU - not grace, not mercy, not the gift of God, not the blessing of God, not an inheritance. Jesus is not in any sense the Savior, the GIVER of life, but just a possibility-maker. I don't believe that God is the OFFERER of life but (as the ancient creed says) the GIVER of life.







Which of course is exactly what the Bible says, what the Ecumenical Council of Orange stated, what we confess in the Creed..... "You did not choose Me but I choose you" Jesus said. Yes, one who is DEAD has only one way of being ALIVE - it must be given to them (not just offered to them).

Consider we are in a morgue.... looking at a DEAD body.... you can say "Choose to come alive! Decide to live! Follow the living!" You can shout that forever, at a deafening level - and I assure you, the DEAD body won't do a thing. You can say "Jesus OFFERS you life!" You can shout that to the DEAD body all day long, as loud as you can and the DEAD isn't going to do a thing. God doesn't just hold an OFFER in front of us, God GIVES it to us. Not sending a DEAD person a check in the mail which of course he cannot fetch much less cash.... God does a direct deposit, God GIVES us life, God SAVES us, God ENLIVENS us, God is the GIVER of life (not offerer of life), Jesus is the Savior (not just the Possibility-Maker).


I'll admit there is mystery here.... but the Arminian theory to remove it destroys the Gospel IMO and contradicts a whole bunch of Scriptures. The Chief Article of the Christian faith is that Jesus IS THE Savior. Which means salvation is something Jesus DOES - not simply make possible. Until Calvin and Arminius came along in the 16th Century, both insisting that God's brain is subject to ours, both insisting that self is designated to make God "logical" and self is designated the "Answer Man" for God, for 1500 years, Christians left this where the Bible does and confessed we have some mystery here, we simply don't KNOW how this cranks out. BUT however it does, GOD is the GIVER of life (not offerer), Jesus is the Savior (not possibility-maker).... if we have justification/faith/spiritual life it is only and solely because GOD GAVE IT TO US, as the free gift of God, not because of ANYTHING we think/say/do (our works) but because of what JESUS did (His works, His Cross, His heart, His mercy, His grace). Why don't all have this? God doesn't say beyond the point that not all have faith (which we admit doesn't answer the question). For 1500 years, Christians were okay with that - because that's what the Bible says, that's what Jesus taught. Jakob Arminius and John Calvin both came up with LOGICAL "answers" but they both destroy Christianity in the process (or at least seriously threaten it).





A very important discussion.... it is the heart and core of Christianity.



- Josiah



.

Is it easier to tell a man to stand and walk, or that he is freed from sin?

They are the same; they are made whole and new and their works, or rather the working of GOD within them as faithful believers, will be a testament to the nature of their character.

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[Lamb]

Without repentance there is no forgiveness, we must turn from our sin, that doesnt mean we will not do it anymore but it does mean we must try and and be sorrowful towards our sin

Where does forgiveness come from though? Isn't it from the cross where Jesus died?

 

[Lamb]

But the deaf cannot hear.

One must hope on the Lord, having the capacity to both hear and believe. And to believe a thing is to live one's life in awe and belief. What things do you know whole heartedly, yet continue to ignore?

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It's the Lord who opens our ears and our eyes so we can hear and see.

 

[Lamb]

So you don't think one dead in sin can hope on the Lord, and then hear and receive and believe?



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One dead in sin (an unbeliever) doesn't believe in God so the Gospel is foolishness (I gave the scripture already and it's in more than one location in the bible). So, no, one dead in sin would never hope in the Lord. Only by faith could one turn to the Lord and have hope. That's God's work in us. That's why we passively receive what He gives.

 

[Lamb]

I must say; as soon as I heard I loved. That isn't to say I loved GOD prior to GOD loving me.

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Then you were fortunate enough to instantly be given faith after hearing one time. Some hear over and over and still reject God. Some receive faith and then turn to the world and then reject Him because they prefer the world and to try to work their way to heaven.

 

[Imalive]

.... we may choose to destroy life, not to create it. I agree, one who is ALIVE may commit "spiritual suicide" but I don't agree that the DEAD may choose life.


Again, Consider we are in a morgue.... looking at a DEAD body.... you can say "Choose to come alive! Decide to live! Follow the living!" You can shout that forever, at a deafening level - and I assure you, the DEAD body won't do a thing. You can say "Jesus OFFERS you life!" You can shout that to the DEAD body all day long, as loud as you can and the DEAD isn't going to do a thing. God doesn't just hold an OFFER in front of us, God GIVES it to us. Not sending a DEAD person a check in the mail which of course he cannot fetch much less cash.... God does a direct deposit, God GIVES us life, God SAVES us, God ENLIVENS us, God is the GIVER of life (not offerer of life), Jesus is the Savior (not just the Possibility-Maker).



- Josiah

Yes yes God does it and He does it by telling someone to make a choice, which they then can cause He enables em. But hardening your heart is a choice and then you cant be enabled if one goes too far w that like the pharisees. Passive righteousness. Hmm. I'm starting to agree w the term.

 

[Lamb]

You seem to be conflating one in known error with one who believes the mercy of GOD to be foolishness. One who doesn't know GOD cannot rightly claim any thing about GOD to be foolishness or not as they do not know one way or the other.

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No. I think you aren't understanding what point I was making.

An unbeliever finds the message of the cross to be foolishness. It's in scripture in more than one spot. He doesn't believe it when He hears it.