Passive Righteousness

Josiah

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http://www.rjgrune.com/blog/two-kinds-of-righteousness

"Passive righteousness is the vertical relationship between God and man. God does the work. The only contribution that man brings into this equation is sin. This is a righteousness that is alien; it is completely outside of ourselves."

The underline section is my emphasis. That part is so true. The righteousness we receive from God is not something we have asked for or say yes or no to. It is given to us because as the above says, our only contribution we bring to the relationship is sin.


I agree. Yup, Lutherans are monergists in justification.... I look at this topic in a simple way by asking Who is the Savior? If it's Christ, then it's not me (thus righteousness being passive, all justification being a free gift and inheritance just as Scripture declares). If it's me (my thoughts, decisions, consent, works) then it's not Jesus (and yes, righteousness would be active on our part). Is our focus on the Cross or on the mirror? I kind of run theology through that paradigm.

Of course, if the topic were sanctification, there things are synergistic..... but even here, faith is the cause, the strength, the source.... even here, works are "good" because of faith.
 

tango

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The gift is already yours...whether you open it or not. The gift giver doesn't take it back. It's yours. How you use the gift is a different issue and that relates to sanctification not to salvation.

Are you trying to say we are saved regardless of what we do? That God merely decides we're saved and from then on we can live however we want, sinning freely, and the gift is ours anyway?
 

tango

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Do you not believed that we are saved "by grace through faith"? Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

If the Holy Spirit gives you faith to believe then you are saved "by grace through faith". There is no...but then you must...because you have faith given by the Holy Spirit.

Context is everything here... the next verse says that it's not through works lest any should boast. In other words salvation is a gift rather than a payment.

If the Spirit gives us the faith to believe do we not still have to respond to it? When Jesus knocks at the door do we not need to open the door? Or does Jesus just kick the door down regardless of what we wanted?
 

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Are you trying to say we are saved regardless of what we do? That God merely decides we're saved and from then on we can live however we want, sinning freely, and the gift is ours anyway?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Yes, salvation is given to us by grace through faith and this faith is in the Savior who died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. The only thing that man can do is reject the faith (and hence the Savior) and damn himself.

How we live our lives refers to sanctification and has nothing to do with the topic of Passive Righteousness where we receive righteousness from God without having to ask for it or open it, etc...
 

Imalive

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Like JSimms I will leave them t it I have said enough for anyone who reads this to make up their mind. Not sure why we needed another thread for this when it is the same in the other thread but ok I have said my piece

You give up quick. Come on Bill, faith comes by hearing and hearing and hearing and hearing. I will ask a parrot to do the job though, I get tired from it too LOL.
And if I arrange a parrot I bet they eat it.

http://www.aish.com/j/j/51474362.html?mobile=yes
 

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Context is everything here... the next verse says that it's not through works lest any should boast. In other words salvation is a gift rather than a payment.

If the Spirit gives us the faith to believe do we not still have to respond to it? When Jesus knocks at the door do we not need to open the door? Or does Jesus just kick the door down regardless of what we wanted?

Jesus knocking at the door is scripture addressing believers.

Our response does not contribute to what God has already given to us. It does not add to it in any way or make it more solid.
 

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You give up quick. Come on Bill, faith comes by hearing and hearing and hearing and hearing. I will ask a parrot to do the job though, I get tired from it too LOL.
And if I arrange a parrot I bet they eat it.

http://www.aish.com/j/j/51474362.html?mobile=yes

You guys don't have to respond in the thread then. I do enjoy discussing Christian theology and I found a quote that addressed something important so I posted it. There is nothing wrong with my wanting to look at this from another direction which I have done.
 

tango

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We all know that opinions trump God's word on the CH. Keep holding to your opinion if you must.

You could always be really radical and, like, post some actual Scripture instead of vague statements like this.
 

Imalive

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Are you trying to say we are saved regardless of what we do? That God merely decides we're saved and from then on we can live however we want, sinning freely, and the gift is ours anyway?

Yay! Get saved by doing nothing, then demand the inheritance, go live like the devil and you stay saved.
 

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Yay! Get saved by doing nothing, then demand the inheritance, go live like the devil and you stay saved.

You prefer to work for salvation?
 

tango

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From Matthew 11: Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Why would Jesus bother saying "come to me" if we didn't actually have to, you know, go to him? Why didn't he just say "don't worry, sit tight where you are because I'm doing all the work. Stay put and I'll put my yoke around your neck"?

The idea of the free gift doesn't automatically mean we do nothing at all. If I hear you're struggling to pay your bills and send you a check as a gift you did nothing to deserve it but still have to take it to the bank for it to have any value.
 

Lamb

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From Matthew 11: Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Why would Jesus bother saying "come to me" if we didn't actually have to, you know, go to him? Why didn't he just say "don't worry, sit tight where you are because I'm doing all the work. Stay put and I'll put my yoke around your neck"?

The idea of the free gift doesn't automatically mean we do nothing at all. If I hear you're struggling to pay your bills and send you a check as a gift you did nothing to deserve it but still have to take it to the bank for it to have any value.

We don't earn salvation. At all. Nothing we do will add to what Jesus bought for us at the cross with His blood. We have no righteousness of our own to add to the mix. It's all God's righteousness which is a HUGE necessity.
 

Josiah

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Context is everything here... the next verse says that it's not through works lest any should boast. In other words salvation is a gift rather than a payment.


Yuppers..... and we need to remember that. Anything that contradicts that is not correct.


If the Spirit gives us the faith to believe do we not still have to respond to it? When Jesus knocks at the door do we not need to open the door? Or does Jesus just kick the door down regardless of what we wanted?


Some thoughts, if I may....


1. Obviously, there is MYSTERY here.... Maybe God simply chose to not give us all the details (we don't have all the "dots"), maybe we lowly mere mortals with puny, limited, sinful, fallen brains can't wrap themselves around the things of God (thus, some humility is needed, some acknowledgement that God just may know more about the things of God than we do)... But we have truths that our puny brains can't connect. What else is new? How about the Trinity, the Two Natures of Christ, Inspiration, why even God Himself? Until the late 16th Century, we didn't speak of "theology" we spoke of "the Mysteries of God." Scripture commands us to be "Stewards of the mysteries of God" not Correctors of Completers of God. I keep thinking of the quote from Luther, "Humility is the foundation of all sound theology" and Wesley's quote "We must be bold where Scripture is bold and silent where Scripture is silent" and my Orthodox friend's frequent lament about Western Christianity "They forgot how to shut up."


2. To me, the distinction between Justification and Sanctification helps a lot. Justification (narrow sense in soteriology) is the COMING to life, born again, regeneration, the changed relationship with God, becoming a child of God. Sanctification is what we do as a child of God, as one who is justified, as one who is in this new/different relationship with God, one who is alive. The first is monergistic: God's doing, the second is synergistis: God empowers and calls but we do it - becoming more Christ-like, more loving/serving, more moral. Yes, life is a gift.... and yes, it is to be lived.


3. There are some classic/traditional Protestants who would THEORIZE (sic.... STRESS on that word) that PERHAPS (emphasis on that word) part of the workings of justification is that God changes our will. While I don't denounce that THEORY, I don't like it - simply because it suggests we have to tell God how He does things, God MUST submit to what makes sense to me, and it leaves the door at least a bit cracked to the idea that justification is synergistic and that the Savior is not Jesus but my will. I'd rather leave it as God chose to: alone. Seems to ME, any human theory about this seems to at least undermine what we both agree is the point: salvation is a GIFT, Jesus IS THE Savior. See point # 1.



- Josiah
 

MennoSota

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Are you trying to say we are saved regardless of what we do? That God merely decides we're saved and from then on we can live however we want, sinning freely, and the gift is ours anyway?
What does Paul tell us in Romans 3-8? Hint: He directly addresses your question because the Romans apparently struggled with the same paradigm shift you are facing. Read the chapters and see what God tells you. Ask Him to give you eyes to see and ears to hear. You may find yourself freed from bondage.
 

MennoSota

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You could always be really radical and, like, post some actual Scripture instead of vague statements like this.
Read Romans 3 -8...
 

MennoSota

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Yay! Get saved by doing nothing, then demand the inheritance, go live like the devil and you stay saved.
Go read Romans 3 - 8...
 

MennoSota

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Yuppers..... and we need to remember that. Anything that contradicts that is not correct.





Some thoughts, if I may....


1. Obviously, there is MYSTERY here...
No. No you may not.
The mystery is mostly between your ears, Josiah.
 

Lamb

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No. No you may not.
The mystery is mostly between your ears, Josiah.

No flaming. Please? Address the topic and not the people.
 

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psalms 91

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Topic has been addressed in mukltiple threads and we are just chasing our tails here. Noone that I have seen has changed what they believed and it is still the same arguments.
 
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