Define "works"

[psalms 91]

works are a result of faith and the New Testament is clear that we have work to do to stay on the narrow path and also that our ssanctification is an ongoing process. Work out our salvation with fear and trembling comes to mind

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Well if I look it up they don't teach that.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

I always hate it when people look things up

 

[atpollard]

When (if) you say that salvation is not dependent on "works", what do you mean? How do you define "works"; rather, if I saw you "working", what would you be doing?

Ephesians 2:1-9 NASB
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [fn]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in the

Eph 2:9 "works" = ἔργων = Strong's G2041 = ἔργον érgon, er'-gon; from a primary (but obsolete) ἔργω érgō (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:—deed, doing, labour, work.


So to answer your question, when I SAY "salvation is not dependent upon works" , I mean that there is no toil, no effort, no deed, no doing, no labor and no work that I can undertake to earn 'salvation'.

The WAGES of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23)
[You can labor to earn death, you cannot labor to earn eternal life.]

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

 

[user1234]

It's generally agreed that Works cannot lead us to Faith, but after conversion, is it the case that Faith and Works, both of them and taken together, determine whether or not we are going to be saved? That's really the issue here.

No...not '...are going to be saved'.
If they are still trying to determine whether or not they are going to be saved, they havent yet fully come to salvation/faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He did for them. They dont understand the grace/gift of God, imo.

works are a result of faith and the New Testament is clear that we have work to do to stay on the narrow path and also that our ssanctification is an ongoing process. Work out our salvation with fear and trembling comes to mind

That is the salvation we already possess. We arent begun by grace, kept by works. (excepting the 'works' of Jesus)
We're saved, ... justified, sanctified, and glorified ... by grace. Praise the Lord!

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The topic is not "Justification."

It was brought into the discussion in post 14. You'd addressed the link and suggested it said something it didn't. MC answered.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ephesians 2:1-9 NASB
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [fn]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in the

Eph 2:9 "works" = ἔργων = Strong's G2041 = ἔργον érgon, er'-gon; from a primary (but obsolete) ἔργω érgō (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:—deed, doing, labour, work.


So to answer your question, when I SAY "salvation is not dependent upon works" , I mean that there is no toil, no effort, no deed, no doing, no labor and no work that I can undertake to earn 'salvation'.

The WAGES of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT OF GOD is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23)
[You can labor to earn death, you cannot labor to earn eternal life.]

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

Does any Christian church teach that it is possible to earn salvation?

From the quote: "So to answer your question, when I SAY "salvation is not dependent upon works" , I mean that there is no toil, no effort, no deed, no doing, no labor and no work that I can undertake to earn 'salvation'."
A question arises given that statement. Is there any toil undertaken, effort expended, deed done, labour performed, or work done in a Christian's life that matters at the last judgement and is used by the judge in deciding their case?

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
[NIV]​

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Does any Christian church teach that it is possible to earn salvation?

From the quote: "So to answer your question, when I SAY "salvation is not dependent upon works" , I mean that there is no toil, no effort, no deed, no doing, no labor and no work that I can undertake to earn 'salvation'."
A question arises given that statement. Is there any toil undertaken, effort expended, deed done, labour performed, or work done in a Christian's life that matters at the last judgement and is used by the judge in deciding their case?

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
[NIV]​

So would this apply to what was talked about in the linked article - that there is a different 'sense' to justification that includes "works", being separate from another sense of the word (justification that is by faith)?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So would this apply to what was talked about in the linked article - that there is a different 'sense' to justification that includes "works", being separate from another sense of the word (justification that is by faith)?

Justification has several referents.

• First it refers to the reception of the justice/righteousness of Christ in baptism and by faith.
• Second it refers to the justice/righteousness one acquires by the grace of the gift of the Holy Spirit working throughout life (some would call this sanctification).
• Third it refers to the perfect righteousness of the saved in the resurrection where sin as well as death and hell are cast into the lake of fire leaving only goodness in earthly creation - this is part of deification (as the Orthodox and Catholics call it) or the beatific vision as Catholics call it. It is sharing the divine nature as much as Christ's human, glorified, and created nature can.

There are probably additional meanings in the holy scriptures but these are the most important and most relevant for this thread.

 

[user1234]

Justification has several referents.

• First it refers to the reception of the justice/righteousness of Christ in baptism and by faith.
• Second it refers to the justice/righteousness one acquires by the grace of the gift of the Holy Spirit working throughout life (some would call this sanctification).
• Third it refers to the perfect righteousness of the saved in the resurrection where sin as well as death and hell are cast into the lake of fire leaving only goodness in earthly creation - this is part of deification (as the Orthodox and Catholics call it) or the beatific vision as Catholics call it. It is sharing the divine nature as much as Christ's human, glorified, and created nature can.

There are probably additional meanings in the holy scriptures but these are the most important and most relevant for this thread.

No, no, no, wrong, wrong, wrong.
More religious gobblety-gook...why are you guys sooo insistent on adding your works to the salvation that Christ alone purchased with His own blood and gives to us freely as a gift?!
Do you really think He's going to share His glory in the sense of any of us taking credit for any of it? (Let alone a handful of us 21st century putzoids sitting around tapping on computer keys every day?)
Come on....
The bible plainly shows where religious works lead to (and it aint pretty).
Let the glory of the Lord rise among us, let the praises of our King, rise among us.
If we joined together in the chorus of the redeemed, we could really see some great things happen with this site...for Jesus' sake, and the sake of many coming to be saved.
Ppl arent in need of more religion, they need reality, they need relationship, they need Jesus.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
Let the glory of the Lord rise among us, let the praises of our King, rise among us.
If we joined together in the chorus of the redeemed, we could really see some great things happen with this site...for Jesus' sake, and the sake of many coming to be saved.
...

Amen.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

No, no, no, wrong, wrong, wrong.
More religious gobblety-gook...why are you guys sooo insistent on adding your works to the salvation that Christ alone purchased with His own blood and gives to us freely as a gift?!
Do you really think He's going to share His glory in the sense of any of us taking credit for any of it? (Let alone a handful of us 21st century putzoids sitting around tapping on computer keys every day?)
Come on....
The bible plainly shows where religious works lead to (and it aint pretty).
Let the glory of the Lord rise among us, let the praises of our King, rise among us.
If we joined together in the chorus of the redeemed, we could really see some great things happen with this site...for Jesus' sake, and the sake of many coming to be saved.
Ppl arent in need of more religion, they need reality, they need relationship, they need Jesus.

I've left your post intact, but I want you to notice what I put in bold print and underlined. That's what I'm referring to with this quote from James, who states plainly what "religious works" leads to:

But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing...Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've left your post intact, but I want you to notice what I put in bold print and underlined. That's what I'm referring to with this quote from James, who states plainly what "religious works" leads to:

Who could gainsay James when he says Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. To do these things from a heart in love with God is what our religion is intended to be about. If we love others, we live in the light, and so there is nothing in us that will cause someone else to sin. 1 John 2:10

 

[user1234]

Who could gainsay James when he says Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. To do these things from a heart in love with God is what our religion is intended to be about. If we love others, we live in the light, and so there is nothing in us that will cause someone else to sin. 1 John 2:10

I've left your post intact, but I want you to notice what I put in bold print and underlined. That's what I'm referring to with this quote from James, who states plainly what "religious works" leads to:

Nice try, boys, but you're wriggling together.
It wont change the truth...morecoffer was talking about justification...my post was CLEARLY in response to his RomanCatholic spin on it.

Now you KNOW I was referring to the RC works-for-salvation religious-type works, NOT James' (the Lord's ½brother by Mary...so much for the 'ever-virgin' worship of the RC denomination) exhortations of sanctification, and his explanation and tests of what TRUE religion is for saved believers in Jesus.
Your dishonesty is showing more and more. Naughty boys.

If the debate with Rome had ever been about helping the less fortunate, there never would have been a debate. Of course, doing good things is a good thing.

James gives exhortations and even commands on how to live lives as decent human beings in general, and CHRISTIANS moreso, having been saved ... Its not a theological treatise or instructions on HOW TO BECOME saved.

He begins by greeting the 12 tribes, then immediately begins referring to the readers as brethren. He's addressing ppl that are saved by grace, not ppl trying to earn salvation, either by doing good deeds, or by the religious works of the RC denomination (which hadnt been invented yet, anyway).

Interestingly, the first verse that plainly refers to salvation is v18, and it only mentions being 'born of God' by the word of truth...(born again?), no works or water baptisms are mentioned.
Also interesting is how often the RC denom likes to quote portions of James when its convenient to keep ppl in obedience, but skips right over the first few verses of Ch.2...
...Falling all over each other to get a glimpse of the ones wearing the golden rings and the gay clothing, while theres hungry, hurting and homeless in need of healing and a bite to eat getting brushed aside? Sounds familiar.

Salvation is a gift. Works should follow. The RC denomination has it backwards at best.
But it cant really be, because works cant earn salvation.

So its not even really a matter of cart before horse.
Is that by accident or deliberate? I think it's a little of both.
I dont blame those in the pews so much for what false teachers teach.
And even some false teachers are only haplessly passing on
what they've been wrongly taught.
But I think there are some that are deliberate in their deception, also.

 

[Albion]

If the debate with Rome had ever been about helping the less fortunate, there never would have been a debate. Of course, doing good things is a good thing..

...and that's an appropriate response to all the diversions we've been reading. :clap2:

On the other hand, we must allow as how it is possible that our friends simply do not understand this issue.

 

[atpollard]

Does any Christian church teach that it is possible to earn salvation?

I have no idea. Fortunately, that is not the question I was asked or I would not have attempted to answer. I was asked "what do I mean when I say ..." which is the question that I answered.

From the quote: "So to answer your question, when I SAY "salvation is not dependent upon works" , I mean that there is no toil, no effort, no deed, no doing, no labor and no work that I can undertake to earn 'salvation'."
A question arises given that statement. Is there any toil undertaken, effort expended, deed done, labour performed, or work done in a Christian's life that matters at the last judgement and is used by the judge in deciding their case?

Did the apostle lie in John 3:16-18?
Is it possible to "believe in Him" and perish?
Is it possible to "believe in Him" and be judged?

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
[NIV]​

I cannot speak for God and I will not speak for others on this issue, so I will again speak only for myself based upon my personal experience and understanding. Clinical Death is defined as when the heart stops beating. Every person who dies, ultimately, dies of heart failure. If someone has a massive heart attack and it stops beating, the technical cause of death is their heart stopped. If someone gets shot in the head, then their heart stops beating and they die from cardiac arrest. If someone drowns, the lack of air causes their heart to stop and they die of heart failure. The lack of a heart beat is the defining sign of death, but it may not be the initial cause of their death.

So can a person live without a heart beat? No. But we must not confuse the symptom with the cause.

For me, meeting Jesus was an event of radical self-transformation. Verses like "I will remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh" or "the old has passed away and all things have been made new" make perfect sense to me. So the concept that one could be transformed and then not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us in advance is utter nonsense. It is like asking "what if I have no heart beat but am still alive"? There are no Christian Zombies.

For me, it is a very black and white polar experience. I was DEAD and Christ made me ALIVE. I once delighted in EVIL and now I desire to do GOOD.
I believe that Matthew 25 represents the simple reality that there is no middle ground. Everyone is either a child of God or a child of the Devil. You will know them by their fruit.

Fortunately, I do not need to get this issue correct. God is the judge, I am not. I have no desire to live a life devoid of Good Works, so the issue is moot.

 

[user1234]

...and that's an appropriate response to all the diversions we've been reading. :clap2:

On the other hand, we must allow as how it is possible that our friends simply do not understand this issue.

Sure...read the rest of my post and countless others, I dont blame the folks in the pews as much, if they were fed false doctrine with fear, from the time they're little kids and up.....I know a whole lot of RC members that just dont understand, yes, they just do what they were always told to do, many were even taught not to question, and that mentality has stuck with them for life.

It's ppl that I consider 'victims' to a certain degree, of deception (having been one also) that is an added incentive and I have a passion to help out of the religious mess they're often trapped in (mostly unwittingly, but some even willingly ... resigned to it).

Yes, the main incentive is Jesus ... But helping others is a close second, and then exposing the enemy for the lies and deceit that brings so much destruction.
We are, after all, called to contend for THE faith that was once delivered to the saints.
So yes, its important to distjnguish between those being deceived and those doing the deceiving, and then among them, those deliberately, and those who are a bit of both, or perhaps just careless in what they're teaching.

First point to the Truth,
Then point out false doctrines, teachINGS and practices,
Then point out false teachERS if they insist in it,
Then false practitioners, and those caught up in those things, with the hopes of helping them all be saved and grow, self included, til we all come to the unity of the faith, for Jesus sake and glory.

 

[Albion]

Sure...read the rest of my post and countless others, I dont blame the folks in the pews....

To clarify, I was speaking of our friends here on CH, not countless people in the pews. You see that I referred to what "we've been reading," meaning here.

 

[user1234]

To clarify, I was speaking of our friends here on CH, not countless people in the pews. You see that I referred to what "we've been reading," meaning here.

'Countless others' was a reference to posts, not ppl in the pews, (tho I admit, my saying 'countless other posts' may have been an exaggeration, lol, I think they all are counted)

And yes, I was initially meaning ppl here that attend churches...I dont blame the ppl in the pews, ~that are also ch members~ (in contrast to their religious teachers), .....
and then I expanded it .... I should have said 'And I also know alot of RC members' ~that are not members here~ etc.
Thanks for alerting me to help clear that up a bit. (I hope, lol)
I admit I'm not the greatest writer, by far.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
Did the apostle lie in John 3:16-18?
Is it possible to "believe in Him" and perish?
Is it possible to "believe in Him" and be judged?
...

It is possible to believe and perish. That is the point that saint James makes in his letter. One must be a doer of the word and not a hearer only. Belief that does not act does not make a person just because to be justified action is needed. Even love is an action as saint Paul emphasises in First Corinthians chapter thirteen; in that passage all the attributes of love are verbs (in Greek) because love is not passive and nor is faith passive. The signature of my posts includes an observation by saint Gregory who was a pope in Rome in the early centuries of Church history (he died in 604 AD) it says "The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist." I believe that a similar observation applied to faith "The proof of faith is in the works. Where faith exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist." Faith means more than "believe" in current day English. For us it means to trust God, to be faithful to God, and to be loyal God as well as to believe everything that God reveals yielding obedience to his commands and trembling to his warnings.

The Westminster confession of faith has a chapter on saving faith in which it is said:

CHAPTER XIV.
Of Saving Faith.

I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts; and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word: by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.

II. By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of god himself speaking therein; and acteth differently, upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come. But the principle acts of saving faith are, accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.

III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong; may be often and many ways assailed and weakened, but gets the victory; growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith. ​

It is possible to believe and be judged (condemned) if the belief does nothing but assent to what is true without acting upon the truth to which it gives ascent.

The kind of belief discussed in John chapter three is not passive inactive belief is it. It is alive and active.

John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.​

As long as a person is living they are voting with their feet by means of the things that they do. If they do good they vote with their feet for God and if what they do is wicked they vote with their feet against God. As Jesus said "this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

No word here suggests that one earns entry into heaven by doing good but at the same time no word here suggests that one enters heaven by doing wickedness while saying "I believe". Sinless perfection is not expected in any human being except Christ and his sinlessness is given to the faithful as a gift of grace. That grace changes the heart of those who receive it and they do thereafter seek to do good, they come to the light of God so that their deeds may be clearly seen as worked in God's grace.

 

[Imalive]

Define works. Not using your car on sunday cause it was a rule more than a century ago to not use a horse. Then you'd let him work.
That is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. They walk to church cause taking a car is working on Sunday.
One teen was complaining on a forum. He could not go fishing after church and his parents just went to bed after church.