Define "works"

[Albion]

Define works.

See post #9.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Define works. Not using your car on sunday cause it was a rule more than a century ago to not use a horse. Then you'd let him work.
That is the weirdest thing I've ever seen. They walk to church cause taking a car is working on Sunday.
One teen was complaining on a forum. He could not go fishing after church and his parents just went to bed after church.

The horse thing is a different kind of work

 

[psalms 91]

The whole idea is to focus on God and be in prayer and meditation and reading the bible, it is supposed to be a time of drawing close to God.

 

[Imalive]

The whole idea is to focus on God and be in prayer and meditation and reading the bible, it is supposed to be a time of drawing close to God.

Yes. Turn sabbath into sleeping LOL. Sleep all day, so you don't boast that you do works.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes. Turn sabbath into sleeping LOL. Sleep all day, so you don't boast that you do works.

It is a day of rest

 

[user1234]

It is a day of rest

WHAT is?

It IS?
Since when?

Sounds good!

Yes. Turn sabbath into sleeping LOL. Sleep all day, so you don't boast that you do works.

Some nights Ive tossed and turned and thrashed around like a fish out of water. Woke up exhausted. Lotta work. :faint:

(Get up...go to church to get some sleep :birgits_giggle
(Sometimes a good message on eternal security can put you right out):sleep3::shhh:

 

[Andrew]

It's generally agreed that Works cannot lead us to Faith, but after conversion, is it the case that Faith and Works, both of them and taken together, determine whether or not we are going to be saved? That's really the issue here.

No it doesn't save us but it's definitely a response or evidence of being saved, I think we confuse "will" with "works" in my opinion.

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[Albion]

No it doesn't save us but it's definitely a response or evidence of being saved...

or at least of having Faith.

 

[Andrew]

or at least of having Faith.

same thing I suppose

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[pinacled]

It's often bandied about (sometimes as a jab, sometimes not) that our salvation is not based on "works". When (if) you say that salvation is not dependent on "works", what do you mean? How do you define "works"; rather, if I saw you "working", what would you be doing?

Faith without works is dead.
I'm reminded of the rich man and lazarus.
And Yeshua (jesus) gave plenty examples of good works to glorify our Heavenly Father.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 

[Albion]

Faith without works is dead.

It isn't Faith in that case, so of course it cannot save. Anything that's described as *dead* usually is no longer operable, right? That, however, does not mean that a live one doesn't function.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It isn't Faith in that case, so of course it cannot save. Anything that's described as *dead* usually is no longer operable, right? That, however, does not mean that a live one doesn't function.

"Faith alone" includes works?

 

[Andrew]

"Faith alone" includes works?

Its called 'Transperformance' gosh! lol

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[MoreCoffee]

Its called 'Transperformance' gosh! lol

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A mystery?

 

[Andrew]

A mystery?

Transmystery

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[MoreCoffee]

Transmystery

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Like Transjordan?

 

[Andrew]

Like Transjordan?

https://youtu.be/4cP26ndrmtg

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[Albion]

"Faith alone" includes works?

Faith produces works, that's right.

However, the "Faith vs Works" debate concerns which one (or both) "counts" when it comes to us being saved or not. It isn't about whether or not either one exists.

 

[Josiah]

Faith produces works, that's right.

However, the "Faith vs Works" debate concerns which one (or both) "counts" when it comes to us being saved or not. It isn't about whether or not either one exists.

Here's where the justification/sanctification ("born again"- regeneration / growing, becoming Christ-like, discipleship) distinction helps. I'm using these terms theologically.

JUSTIFICATION: We are "saved" by CHRIST'S works, CHRIST is the Savior, it is because of God's unconditional love, boundless mercy, gracious blessing and gift; God GIVES us life... the dead do not and cannot give life to self, cannot perform good works. Here works ARE important - it's just they are all GOD'S works (not those of the DEAD who can't and won't do a thing)

SANCTIFICATION: Once born again/regenerated, once justified (narrow sense), once we are a Christian, a child of God, with the Holy Spirit, as a part of the Body of Christ, we CAN do things and we are CALLED to such. Here works ARE important - and they are OUR works (empowerd by God ALONE, not performed by our human strength or even will). The point here is not justification or heaven.... the point here is The Great Commandment and becoming Christ-like.

Thus works ARE always important - but we need to distinguish BY WHOM and FOR WHAT. When these are blurred, we find the Gospel displaced, we find Christ displaced by self (Christ becoming a HELPER or POSSIBILITY-MAKER but not Savior), synergism, Pelagianism... and eventually the abandonment of Christianity. We also can find the Law displaced, we find antinominalism and lawlessness. BOTH are fully true.... we just must not confuse WHO is performing the work and WHY.



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[Andrew]

Here's where the justification/sanctification ("born again"- regeneration / growing, becoming Christ-like, discipleship) distinction helps. I'm using these terms theologically.

JUSTIFICATION: We are "saved" by CHRIST'S works, CHRIST is the Savior, it is because of God's unconditional love, boundless mercy, gracious blessing and gift; God GIVES us life... the dead do not and cannot give life to self, cannot perform good works. Here works ARE important - it's just they are all GOD'S works (not those of the DEAD who can't and won't do a thing)

SANCTIFICATION: Once born again/regenerated, once justified (narrow sense), once we are a Christian, a child of God, with the Holy Spirit, as a part of the Body of Christ, we CAN do things and we are CALLED to such. Here works ARE important - and they are OUR works (empowerd by God ALONE, not performed by our human strength or even will). The point here is not justification or heaven.... the point here is The Great Commandment and becoming Christ-like.

Thus works ARE always important - but we need to distinguish BY WHOM and FOR WHAT. When these are blurred, we find the Gospel displaced, we find Christ displaced by self (Christ becoming a HELPER or POSSIBILITY-MAKER but not Savior), synergism, Pelagianism... and eventually the abandonment of Christianity. We also can find the Law displaced, we find antinominalism and lawlessness. BOTH are fully true.... we just must not confuse WHO is performing the work and WHY.



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

I can't argue with that. Its the whole of fulfilling the law, not through him that we have fulfilled them, but through his fulfilment and work we are saved (all who believe). As long as we follow him he will continue to lead us through good works in his name and by no effort but by faith, mercy and grace unless we boast "let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing" .... am I on the same page as you guys?

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