Okay, let's talk about predestination

[Imalive]

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[Josiah]

Universal atonement places the effort of salvation or no salvation upon the human.

No. It places ALL of it on Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. ALL.

Go read my thread on the Arminian creed, because that is the essence of universal atonement/unlimited atonement.

Accepting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "free will" OR with self being the Savior or self OR with denying Sola Fide (universalism). It simply affirms Sola Gratia - Solus Christus.


This thread is not about Arminianism, it's about predestination (in the uber-Calvinist or Greek sense) or Election.

 

[atpollard]

The holy scriptures in some English translations have the word "predestination" but that is not the same thing as teaching a doctrine of predestination that is like the one that John Calvin taught. The Catholic Church does a fine job of teaching what the holy scriptures teach.

Some take a passage such as this one

Romans 8:28-30 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. [29] For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.
​

and construe it to teach that God predestines some to eternal life and that God also predestines some to eternal punishment. Is that your view MennoSota?

Since he didn't want to explore the bunny trail (if it was a bunny trial) and I love these types of questions ...
Romans 8:28-30 only explicitly claim the affirmative case. Romans 3:10-12 makes clear that ALL men earn damnation on their own with no need for an active role from God. So the only thing CERTAIN from Romans 8:28-30 is that God called at least some ("those") and he did so "according to His (God's) purpose". "THOSE" (the same 'those') were fore known by God ... 'foreknew' is a really cool word. I may be pushing it's meaning just a but, but maybe not. 'Know' is not just a casual acquaintance but is the same word that they use in the Septuagint for translating when a husband 'knew' his wife in the OT. In my defense, we are the Bride of Christ, so when Romans 8 says God foreknew us, it may actually mean closer to God fore-loved us ... as his future bride.

From here we get to the so-called 'golden chain'. For a strong Reformed Baptist like me, that just seems like a 'no duh' revelation. I mean are we really suprised that an OMNICIENT, OMNIPOTENT, OMNIPRESENT Soverign God can carry his beloved from start to finish without dropping the ball on our justification, sanctification and glorification?

Why God would choose to fore-love me is a mystery I will never comprehend, but the revelation that God's arm is not short comes as no surprise.

To the second half of your question, I see nothing in those verses that support the assumption that the reverse of what Scripture stated must also be true. That is a logical fallacy. If you wish to prove that God fore-hated some and actively worked for their eternal damnation in the same manner that he has clearly fore-loved some and actively worked for their salvation, you will need to find proof of that elsewhere. It so not here.

As an aside, the Hidelberg Catechism (which I like) teaches no such thing, and the Westminster Confession of Faith (which does teach something approaching 'double predestination') is very clear that God's active role is very different - salvation and damnation are not the same thing from God's perspective. So what it teaches (even if I have personal doubts about some of the WCF exegesis) is different from what you implied.

 

[MennoSota]

I see, one little free will "no" to grace means God is not omniscient and omnipotent. Freedom is mighty powerful then. Like a rock too heavy for God to lift and a a problem too difficult for God to solve (for example a triangle with more (or less) than three angels).

God says that no one seeks Him. Not even one.
You mistake your everyday choices with the ability to choose or not choose salvation.
A slave can choose many paths to follow, but he's still a slave. He has no power over his position.

 

[MennoSota]

Man's will defeats Gods will, you said. Agree.
But that doesn't make God less.
For themselves it's a pity, but then He just uses them for His salvation plan anyway, like Pharao, Jude, the pharisees.

When God falls under the will of man, you claim that God is not weak? How so? Man's will rules over God in your scenario. That displaces God as ruler and savior while making man his own determiner of fate. You have emasculated God and made him secondary.

 

[MennoSota]

Seems people are free to choose who they will be a slave to. That's one tiny bit of freedom and MennoSota appears to claim that one tiny bit of freedom is mighty enough to overthrow God.

A little bit of Kerk wisdom in a very "American" form

See my post before this to you.
A slave can choose many paths, but he is still a slave. He cannot change his position as a slave.

 

[atpollard]

Seems people are free to choose who they will be a slave to.

Romans 3:10-12 NASB

10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.​

GOD says ALL make the same choice and chose to be slaves to sin.

1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

As a slave to sin, the gospel may be incomprehensible to these slaves to sin ... all mankind.
I wonder if that might be the reason why ...

John 6:43-44 NASB

43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

 

[MennoSota]

Imagine that, God tamed by a little "no" to grace given.

It is only imagined in your little world, MC. It is not taught in scripture and it is not true in God's big world.

 

[MennoSota]

Is God powerful enough to give freedom to a creature?

What does the scripture say, MC?
I hate red herring.

 

[MennoSota]

Being a slave to God is the same as being free.

No it isn't.
You are bound under God's authority. You fall at His feet because He is God.
You have been set free from the bonds of sin and made a bond slave of Christ.
There is no autonomous freedom. We are held by the mercy and grace of God.

 

[MennoSota]

He let Himself be put under the rule of man. He let them crucify Him.
Didn't really work, ruling God.

No He didn't. You cannot find one place in Scripture where God is impotent to man's power.
Jesus had the angels at his command and could have tossed men to the side (recall the Garden of Gethsemane when the soldiers fell at Jesus feet before Jesus let them rise). Jesus died because it was God's ordained will for him to atone for the sins of the elect. God orchestrated this sacrifice. It was never a victory of man's will over God's. Such blasphemy from your pen is amazing. Be glad that God is gracious to us in our ignorance.

 

[MennoSota]

No. It places ALL of it on Sola Gratia - Solus Christus. ALL.





Accepting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "free will" OR with self being the Savior or self OR with denying Sola Fide (universalism). It simply affirms Sola Gratia - Solus Christus.


This thread is not about Arminianism, it's about predestination (in the uber-Calvinist or Greek sense) or Election.

You cannot have unlimited atonement and election at the same time. If you have unlimited atonement you have universal salvation for all or you make God subservient to man. These are the two options.
All five rebuttals of the Remonstrants work together. You can't pull one out and say that doesn't apply.

 

[Josiah]

You cannot have unlimited atonement and election at the same time.

Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is NOT a contradiction (it's the Gospel).

If you have unlimited atonement you have universal salvation for all

Wrong. While Sola Gratia - Solus Christus is TRUE, it does not eliminate Sola Fide. Unlimited atonement affirms Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, but justification also requires Sola Fide. Yes, God loves all and Christ died for all sins but not all have faith and thus not all are justified.



- Josiah




.

 

[Imalive]

No He didn't. You cannot find one place in Scripture where God is impotent to man's power.
Jesus had the angels at his command and could have tossed men to the side (recall the Garden of Gethsemane when the soldiers fell at Jesus feet before Jesus let them rise). Jesus died because it was God's ordained will for him to atone for the sins of the elect. God orchestrated this sacrifice. It was never a victory of man's will over God's. Such blasphemy from your pen is amazing. Be glad that God is gracious to us in our ignorance.

Goodness gracious me, learn some Dunglish.
If course I know that.Im not dumb. My. Never mind. Who cares. Believe that dumb stuff from that serial killer.
Emasculate God. My goodness. As if someone has to protect His ego. His human ego died.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What does the scripture say, MC?
I hate red herring.

Jesus said

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [John 8:31-38]​

It's a biblical answer to the question that I raised. Is God powerful enough to give freedom to a creature?

 

[Imalive]

Watch out w false teachers. Look at the fruit.
Oh creflo dollar takes ppls money. im not gonna listen to him. oh calvin kills everyone and says its okay. its OT. Ah. Okay. That must be a real good teaching.

 

[atpollard]

Let me posit a WHAT IF:

What if salvation worked exactly as free will Synergists claim it does.

GIVEN ASSUMPTIONS:
1. God has granted everyone the free will to accept or reject the gospel and God takes no active role in influencing your free will.
2. Some facts about God are self-evident from creation.
3. Hearing the 'Law' (to adopt our Lutheran host's terminology) educates us of our sin.
4. Hearing the 'Gospel' allows us to choose between the World and the Jesus Christ.
5. Jesus is still the only way to the Father.

Psalm 51:5-7 NASB

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.​

Our first problem is original sin. Like King David in Psalm 51:5 we are tainted with sin from conception and birth. Like King David in Psalm 51:6-7 we need God to clean us in our innermost parts where God desires truth and can give us spiritual wisdom. There then is the rub, if God so loves our 'free will' then the choice to invite GOD to enter and save us must be our choice. That is the premise of this Synergistic what if.


ASSUMPTION 2: Some facts about God are self-evident from creation.

Romans 1:18-21 NASB

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

GOD says that we exercise our free will to choose to ignore God's "invisible attributes" and to choose to refuse to honor Him of give thanks. As a result, we no longer need to point any fingers of blame at Adam, it is our foolish heart that is darkened and we have earned God's wrath for our own ungodliness and unrighteousness. Our need for a savior is greater than ever, but the Synergistic God is a gentlemen, respecting our free will and waiting for an invitation.


ASSUMPTION 3: Hearing the 'Law' educates us of our sin.

Romans 7:7-13 NASB

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [fn]through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
​

The Law opens our eyes to the sin we refused to see, but it cannot cure it. If fact, sin feeds on the law.
In my experience, the natural man calls this 'judgement' and then ...

John 3:19-21 NASB

19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”​

... flees the light for the shadows of the World. Since John raised the point, who naturally practices the truth: NO ONE (Romans 3:10-12)

We are more desperate than ever for the GOSPEL and a Savior, but the Synergystic God respects our free will and is waiting for an invitation.

ASSUMPTION 4: Hearing the 'Gospel' allows us to choose between the World and the Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.​

Here is the fatal flaw in the Synergysm model. Sinful Man will flee from the light, not draw towards it. Natural man will find the gospel foolishness. There is a 'god of this world' that means us harm and is actively blinding the minds of the lost.

So what should God do if, left to their natural fallen free will, no one chooses salvation?
It would certainly be JUST of God to damn all, but that does not seem to be his plan.

 

[atpollard]

Watch out w false teachers. Look at the fruit.
Oh creflo dollar takes ppls money. im not gonna listen to him. oh calvin kills everyone and says its okay. its OT. Ah. Okay. That must be a real good teaching.

Who did John Calvin kill?
As far as I know, he shed the blood of no one.
The state executed heretics, which was far too common among all political groups at that time.

Martin Luther made far more embarrassing statements by modern standards ... however, neither Luther nor Calvin should be judged by modern standards for their rhetoric. They were men of their age, not ours.

By that yardstick, you better rip most of the OT and anything by Paul out of your bible as well. Moses, Joshua, David and Paul actually killed people. Peter tried, but Jesus put the ear back on.

 

[MennoSota]

Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is NOT a contradiction (it's the Gospel).






Wrong. While Sola Gratia - Solus Christus is TRUE, it does not eliminate Sola Fide. Unlimited atonement affirms Sola Gratia - Solus Christus, but justification also requires Sola Fide. Yes, God loves all and Christ died for all sins but not all have faith and thus not all are justified.



- Josiah




.

All do not have faith because God limits faith only to the elect. Therefore the atonement is only effectual for the elect, which means atonement is limited to the elect, which means it is not and cannot be universal.
Only one who believes that faith is generated and made effectual by human will can logically argue for unlimited atonement. You do not believe that humans generate their own faith. How can you, logically, make atonement unlimited? Your position makes no sense.

 

[MennoSota]

Goodness gracious me, learn some Dunglish.
If course I know that.Im not dumb. My. Never mind. Who cares. Believe that dumb stuff from that serial killer.
Emasculate God. My goodness. As if someone has to protect His ego. His human ego died.

You never address the point, which is fine, but at least look at why your argument is so aggregious.