Purgatory?

[MennoSota]

If He has made us alive there is no need to repent. Sinners are called to repentance.


I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Correct.

There is no need to repent in order to be saved.

There is a need to repent in the process of sanctification. Saints will repent because the Spirit of God will impress upon them to repent.
Sinners will selfishly yell out they are sorry, with the intent to improve their present circumstances. They think if they get on God's good side he will relent from the bad things that are happening to them. The problem is that they still want total control over their lives. In their mind, God is their genie and the just say a magic word to get the genies help. If saying "I'm sorry" will get the genie to help, then so be it. Go read the book of Judges because that is what the people of Israel do when they are hard pressed. It's not repentance, it's a cry for help, with no real intention to have God as their Lord.
You need to see the difference here as it is important to grasp what is the cause of salvation.

 

[Imalive]

Correct.

There is no need to repent in order to be saved.

There is a need to repent in the process of sanctification. Saints will repent because the Spirit of God will impress upon them to repent.
Sinners will selfishly yell out they are sorry, with the intent to improve their present circumstances. They think if they get on God's good side he will relent from the bad things that are happening to them. The problem is that they still want total control over their lives. In their mind, God is their genie and the just say a magic word to get the genies help. If saying "I'm sorry" will get the genie to help, then so be it. Go read the book of Judges because that is what the people of Israel do when they are hard pressed. It's not repentance, it's a cry for help, with no real intention to have God as their Lord.
You need to see the difference here as it is important to grasp what is the cause of salvation.

If it's true repentance God listens.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This says justified, not sanctified.

 

[Lamb]

If it's true repentance God listens.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This says justified, not sanctified.

Don't you see that he already had faith when he went up to the temple to pray?

 

[Imalive]

Don't you see that he already had faith when he went up to the temple to pray?

Yes, but was he saved yet? The text says you believe unto righteousness and confess unto salvation. It says he went home justified. He didn't walk to the temple to pray, justified. But he first got faith and then cried out to God.
Like with healing. They had faith to get healed, then got healed by putting faith in action.

 

[Imalive]

Why I keep stressing doing something, and why evangelicals say: I prayed the sinners prayer and got saved, is not to boast. That makes no sense whatsoever. Even a parrot can learn the sinner's prayer. You don't have to be that bright for it. But there are ppl in Holland in reformed churches, just saw one on Facebook, saying he wanted to get saved. They go to church week after week, year after year and dont even know they're saved. They take the 'we can do nothing, God does it all' to such an extreme, that they apathically wait for years til God is maybe willing to save them and sovereignly do that w out them being able to do anything. Not all, but quite a lot. I once talked to a reformed guy. Oh how nice that you are also a christian. He says: do you think I'm saved?? Taught him the sinners prayer lol.

 

[MennoSota]

If it's true repentance God listens.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This says justified, not sanctified.

Dead people can't repent. It cannot be "true" repentance, in regard to salvation, until God makes a person alive in Christ.

 

[Albion]

Why I keep stressing doing something, and why evangelicals say: I prayed the sinners prayer and got saved, is not to boast. That makes no sense whatsoever. Even a parrot can learn the sinner's prayer. You don't have to be that bright for it. But there are ppl in Holland in reformed churches, just saw one on Facebook, saying he wanted to get saved. They go to church week after week, year after year and dont even know they're saved. They take the 'we can do nothing, God does it all' to such an extreme, that they apathically wait for years til God is maybe willing to save them and sovereignly do that w out them being able to do anything. Not all, but quite a lot. I once talked to a reformed guy. Oh how nice that you are also a christian. He says: do you think I'm saved?? Taught him the sinners prayer lol.

Pardon me for personalizing this, but after reading weeks of posts here, it seems to me that your religious convictions are always being defended by contrasting them with what members of the Reformed community in the Netherlands say or do. That seems not only extremely narrow, but it doesn't appear to be a valid means of determining the Lord's truth in any case.

 

[Lamb]

Why I keep stressing doing something, and why evangelicals say: I prayed the sinners prayer and got saved, is not to boast. That makes no sense whatsoever. Even a parrot can learn the sinner's prayer. You don't have to be that bright for it. But there are ppl in Holland in reformed churches, just saw one on Facebook, saying he wanted to get saved. They go to church week after week, year after year and dont even know they're saved. They take the 'we can do nothing, God does it all' to such an extreme, that they apathically wait for years til God is maybe willing to save them and sovereignly do that w out them being able to do anything. Not all, but quite a lot. I once talked to a reformed guy. Oh how nice that you are also a christian. He says: do you think I'm saved?? Taught him the sinners prayer lol.

Why didn't you share the forgiveness won at the cross if they said they weren't saved?

 

[Imalive]

Why didn't you share the forgiveness won at the cross if they said they weren't saved?

Yes that too of course. He thought he first had to live good or something.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is the thread still about purgatory?

 

[Imalive]

Is the thread still about purgatory?

We democratically decided it doesnt exist.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We democratically decided it doesnt exist.

Have you democratically decided that God does not exist too?

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Have you democratically decided that God does not exist too?

That escalated quickly ( mind you, I am rather curious as to the answer to that question myself).

 

[MoreCoffee]

That escalated quickly ( mind you, I am rather curious as to the answer to that question myself).

Democracy is a two edged sword

 

[MennoSota]

Have you democratically decided that God does not exist too?

Only your version...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Only your version...

:smirk:

By the way, MennoSota, have you figured out what an "evangelical grace" is yet? You seemed put out by me saying that repentance is a grace. But Presbyterians call repentance an evangelical grace in their confession of faith. Are they not Calvinist enough to agree with you that repentance is not a grace as you repeatedly wrote?

I do not much mind if you voted purgatory into non-existence and if you voted God into non-existence - it is very much a democratic way of thinking isn't it, this idea that a vote decided the truth or falsity of a matter. So okay, have fun with the voting and stuff. I imagine you also would vote the bible down to 66 books if you have a ballot on the question.

 

[MennoSota]

:smirk:

By the way, MennoSota, have you figured out what an "evangelical grace" is yet? You seemed put out by me saying that repentance is a grace. But Presbyterians call repentance an evangelical grace in their confession of faith. Are they not Calvinist enough to agree with you that repentance is not a grace as you repeatedly wrote?

I do not much mind if you voted purgatory into non-existence and if you voted God into non-existence - it is very much a democratic way of thinking isn't it, this idea that a vote decided the truth or falsity of a matter. So okay, have fun with the voting and stuff. I imagine you also would vote the bible down to 66 books if you have a ballot on the question.

Happy Reformation Day, MC!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Happy Reformation Day, MC!

It's All Saints Day in Australia.

 

[MennoSota]

It's All Saints Day in Australia.

Which means all the priesthood of believers. 500 years of going directly to one mediator and King, Jesus.

 

[Imalive]

:smirk:

By the way, MennoSota, have you figured out what an "evangelical grace" is yet? You seemed put out by me saying that repentance is a grace. But Presbyterians call repentance an evangelical grace in their confession of faith. Are they not Calvinist enough to agree with you that repentance is not a grace as you repeatedly wrote?

I do not much mind if you voted purgatory into non-existence and if you voted God into non-existence - it is very much a democratic way of thinking isn't it, this idea that a vote decided the truth or falsity of a matter. So okay, have fun with the voting and stuff. I imagine you also would vote the bible down to 66 books if you have a ballot on the question.

an evangelical grace?
Thats grace especially for the evangelicals. They get special grace to show everyone else that theyre wrong and I'm right. Or maybe it's what David Wagner once said, the gift of who cares.