Purgatory?

[MennoSota]

Why do ppl keep saying they are wretched? Paul said that in Romans 7 and then praise God Jesus delivers him and he can live in the Spirit in Romans 8 and put to death the deeds of the body.
Thats Dutch reformed calvinism. Oh I am so bad. I can do nothing good. Talk about me, me, me.

This foolish talk of yours reminds me of the synod of Dordt where the false teaching of Arminius needed to be addressed so that man-centered teaching could be countered with God-centered teaching. The five points of Calvinism were presented against the five points of the Remonstrants, which were rekindling the flames of Pelagianism.
Indeed, if [MENTION=378]Imalive[/MENTION] were not promoting a man-centered soteriology there would be no need to present the human condition as all humans would see their position before God and realize they stand only by the blood stains of Jesus.

Synod of Dordt

The Synod of Dordt (1618-1619), held in order to settle controversy in the Dutch churches initiated by the rise of Arminianism, met in the city of Dordrecht as a national assembly of the Dutch Reformed Church, to which were also invited voting representatives from the Reformed churches in eight foreign countries.

The convocation and proceedings of the Synod of Dordt (1618- 1619) may be considered "among the most interesting events of the seventeenth century. The Westminster Assembly was indeed more immediately interesting to British and American Presbyterians, yet the Synod of Dordt had a species of importance peculiar to itself and altogether pre-eminent. It was not merely a meeting of select divines of a single nation, but a convention of the Calvinistic world, to bear testimony against a rising and obtrusive error; to settle a question in which all the Reformed churches of Europe had an immediate and deep interest. The question was whether the opinions of Arminius, which were then agitating so many minds, could be reconciled with the confession of the Belgic churches." (Thomas Scott, The Articles of the Synod of Dort, Sprinkle Publications, 1993 reprint, p. 5.)

This synod convened on November 13, 1618 consisting of 39 pastors and 18 ruling Elders from the Belgic churches, 5 professors from the universities of Holland, 19 delegates from the Reformed churches in Germany and Switzerland, and 5 professors and bishops from Great Britain. France was also invited but did not attend. The Synod was thus constituted of 86 voting members in all. There were 154 formal sessions and many side conferences held during the six months that the Synod met to consider these matters. The last session of the Synod was held on May 9, 1619.

“The Synod gave a very close examination to the ‘five points’ which had been advanced by the Remonstrants, and compared the teaching in them with the testimony of Scripture. Failing to reconcile that teaching with the Word of God, . . . they unanimously rejected them. They felt however, that a mere rejection was not sufficient. It remained for them to set forth the true Calvinistic teaching in relationship to those matters which had been called into question. This they proceeded to do, embodying the Calvinistic position in five chapters which have ever since been known as the five points of Calvinism." (Steel and Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, P&R Publishing, 1963, p. 14, quoting Ben A. Warburton, Calvinism, p. 61.)
https://www.theopedia.com/synod-of-dordt

 

[Lamb]

You are truly demonic

He points to Christ and you call him demonic? That's very concerning.

 

[Albion]

Why do ppl keep saying they are wretched? Paul said that in Romans 7 and then praise God Jesus delivers him and he can live in the Spirit in Romans 8 and put to death the deeds of the body.
Thats Dutch reformed calvinism. Oh I am so bad. I can do nothing good. Talk about me, me, me.

It's not just Calvinist. Most of Christendom understands that we mortals are sinners, even after being born again. We do fall. True, we are no longer without hope for we have been bought with a price, have been redeemed--whatever way you want to word that. But we are not incapable of sinning between conversion and death, although there are apparently a lot of Christians who have, somehow, picked that idea up.

 

[Lamb]

Apart from Christ who are we? Wretched sinners. We are covered or clothed (whichever translation you use) by Christ in our baptisms Galatians 3:27. That means that our holiness comes only from Him. If He were removed from the equation, we would be back to wretched sinners who can't save themselves.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Apart from Christ who are we? Wretched sinners. We are covered or clothed (whichever translation you use) by Christ in our baptisms Galatians 3:27. That means that our holiness comes only from Him. If He were removed from the equation, we would be back to wretched sinners who can't save themselves.

Yes!! Too absolutely right! In Jesus Christ alone do we find forgiveness! Ephesians 2:8- 9 states the case rather well. We have nothing to do with our own salvation. The Lord did all the work, He still does all the work. It's all http://www.theopedia.com/monergism. God has done it all and He will bring it all to completion on the day of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Imalive]

Apart from Christ who are we? Wretched sinners. We are covered or clothed (whichever translation you use) by Christ in our baptisms Galatians 3:27. That means that our holiness comes only from Him. If He were removed from the equation, we would be back to wretched sinners who can't save themselves.

My ex always said: I'm tired of talking about a corpse.
You ppl always say that evangelicals are so me focused, but this is me focused too to say you're wretched or a worm. Of course in my flesh dwells no good, but Paul writes letters to the saints, not the rotten wretched sinners.

 

[Andrew]

Apart from Christ who are we? Wretched sinners. We are covered or clothed (whichever translation you use) by Christ in our baptisms Galatians 3:27. That means that our holiness comes only from Him. If He were removed from the equation, we would be back to wretched sinners who can't save themselves.

Sorry this is in response to post 142...
No he teaches against Christ teaching to fully repent and mocks those who do. We are called to turn away from sin and menno says that no matter what, we are wretched and pretty much a lost cause, that anyone who obeys Christ repentance is therefore going against grace and has no salvation, he is a spirit killer. He implies that even if you obey Christ by living Holy lives you are still a wretched sinner and ego centered, im sorry but the bible says that if you are to turn away from sin but still sin you are crucifying afresh and you are to immediately repent.

 

[Lamb]

My ex always said: I'm tired of talking about a corpse.
You ppl always say that evangelicals are so me focused, but this is me focused too to say you're wretched or a worm. Of course in my flesh dwells no good, but Paul writes letters to the saints, not the rotten wretched sinners.

My post was about Christ, not me. So it was not me focused. It points to the one who is righteous and covers us in that. We can't do that at all.

When you refer to Paul when he writes about saints, he makes sure to let them know that they are covered in Christ. So apart from Christ, what are we?

 

[Lamb]

Sorry this is in response to post 142...
No he teaches against Christ teaching. We are called to turn away from sin and menno says that no matter what, we are wretched and pretty much a lost cause, that anyone who obeys Christ repentance is therefore going against grace and has no salvation, he is a spirit killer. He implies that even if you obey Christ by living Holy lives you are still a wretched sinner and ego centered, im sorry but the bible says that if you are to turn away from sin but still sin you are crucifying afresh and you are to immediately repent.

I believe you misinterpret some of the things he said.

Obeying God will not earn us salvation. Do you believe this?

 

[Imalive]

This foolish talk of yours reminds me of the synod of Dordt where the false teaching of Arminius needed to be addressed so that man-centered teaching could be countered with God-centered teaching. The five points of Calvinism were presented against the five points of the Remonstrants, which were rekindling the flames of Pelagianism.
Indeed, if [MENTION=378]Imalive[/MENTION] were not promoting a man-centered soteriology there would be no need to present the human condition as all humans would see their position before God and realize they stand only by the blood stains of Jesus.

Synod of Dordt

The Synod of Dordt (1618-1619), held in order to settle controversy in the Dutch churches initiated by the rise of Arminianism, met in the city of Dordrecht as a national assembly of the Dutch Reformed Church, to which were also invited voting representatives from the Reformed churches in eight foreign countries.

The convocation and proceedings of the Synod of Dordt (1618- 1619) may be considered "among the most interesting events of the seventeenth century. The Westminster Assembly was indeed more immediately interesting to British and American Presbyterians, yet the Synod of Dordt had a species of importance peculiar to itself and altogether pre-eminent. It was not merely a meeting of select divines of a single nation, but a convention of the Calvinistic world, to bear testimony against a rising and obtrusive error; to settle a question in which all the Reformed churches of Europe had an immediate and deep interest. The question was whether the opinions of Arminius, which were then agitating so many minds, could be reconciled with the confession of the Belgic churches." (Thomas Scott, The Articles of the Synod of Dort, Sprinkle Publications, 1993 reprint, p. 5.)

This synod convened on November 13, 1618 consisting of 39 pastors and 18 ruling Elders from the Belgic churches, 5 professors from the universities of Holland, 19 delegates from the Reformed churches in Germany and Switzerland, and 5 professors and bishops from Great Britain. France was also invited but did not attend. The Synod was thus constituted of 86 voting members in all. There were 154 formal sessions and many side conferences held during the six months that the Synod met to consider these matters. The last session of the Synod was held on May 9, 1619.

“The Synod gave a very close examination to the ‘five points’ which had been advanced by the Remonstrants, and compared the teaching in them with the testimony of Scripture. Failing to reconcile that teaching with the Word of God, . . . they unanimously rejected them. They felt however, that a mere rejection was not sufficient. It remained for them to set forth the true Calvinistic teaching in relationship to those matters which had been called into question. This they proceeded to do, embodying the Calvinistic position in five chapters which have ever since been known as the five points of Calvinism." (Steel and Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, P&R Publishing, 1963, p. 14, quoting Ben A. Warburton, Calvinism, p. 61.)
https://www.theopedia.com/synod-of-dordt

Yes some are still nasty at times. If a teacher on a reformed school becomes a born again tongue speaking evangelical they fire him. But for the rest, oh well, evangelicals can be nasty to them too lol.
Even the atheists in Holland are still a bit calvinist. No public display of luxury cars and all that stuff lol.
I dont agree w Arminius either.

 

[Imalive]

My post was about Christ, not me. So it was not me focused. It points to the one who is righteous and covers us in that. We can't do that at all.

When you refer to Paul when he writes about saints, he makes sure to let them know that they are covered in Christ. So apart from Christ, what are we?

Yes so why not say that? Why not say who you are in Him instead of without Him? Oh well, to each their own.

 

[Andrew]

I believe you misinterpret some of the things he said.

Obeying God will not earn us salvation. Do you believe this?

This is what he said about my expressing how the Holy Spirit works in me.
"DHoffmann, in our self we are still as wretched as we were before God chose to save us. Never forget that."

"You have just extinguished grace and made salvation by your works the means to your life with God. "

So according to him, obeying God as Christ teaches is extinguishing Grace. That is a very unfruitful comment.

 

[Lamb]

This is what he said about my expressing how the Holy Spirit works in me.
"DHoffmann, in our self we are still as wretched as we were before God chose to save us. Never forget that."

"You have just extinguished grace and made salvation by your works the means to your life with God. "

So according to him, obeying God as Christ teaches is extinguishing Grace. That is a very unfruitful comment.

I think there was an earlier posting of yours that stated something about how you thought obeying God contributed to your salvation (not in those words) and that is why he responded the way he did. I was even going to reply to it but this thread is very long and I lost track of it.

So, do you believe that obeying God saves you?

 

[Imalive]

This is what he said about my expressing how the Holy Spirit works in me.
"DHoffmann, in our self we are still as wretched as we were before God chose to save us. Never forget that."

"You have just extinguished grace and made salvation by your works the means to your life with God. "

So according to him, obeying God as Christ teaches is extinguishing Grace. That is a very unfruitful comment.

Yup and untrue.

 

[Andrew]

I think there was an earlier posting of yours that stated something about how you thought obeying God contributed to your salvation (not in those words) and that is why he responded the way he did. I was even going to reply to it but this thread is very long and I lost track of it.

So, do you believe that obeying God saves you?

Yes
We are to repent be baptised in Jesus name for the remission of sin and the Holy Spirit will dwell in you guiding you to keep you from sin, repent if you do. Not waiting for purgatory either but now. This is not works as claimed this is keeping his commandments, you have to have the rebirth, its all about the rebirth

 

[Albion]

It (always obeying God) WOULD save you--if you actually did it. That was the situation faced by the OT Hebrews. If they had been able to keep the Law perfectly all throughout life, they would have been justified by doing so. No one can, however, which is why God sent a Savior to do it for us and why the Law no longer has that status but, instead, is a standard to strive towards.

 

[Andrew]

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:6

 

[Albion]

Yes
We are to repent be baptised in Jesus name for the remission of sin and the Holy Spirit will dwell in you guiding you to keep you from sin, repent if you do. Not waiting for purgatory either but now.

Wouldn't it be great if, at some point in this thread, we really did find out what "Purgatory" is, how it works, who goes there, and why--at least in theory?

That would have made all these references to Purgatory clear. As it is, the above statement mentioned Purgatory, but what the writer thinks it is all about is a mystery still.

 

[Andrew]

Wouldn't it be great if, at some point in this thread, we really did find out what "Purgatory" is, how it works, who goes there, and why--at least in theory?

That would have made all these references to Purgatory clear. As it is, the above statement mentioned Purgatory, but what the writer thinks it is all about is a mystery still.

I stated that i liked the video because it had SOME truth to it in MY opinion
Btw, Catholics dont believe that EVERYONE goes to purgatory, lets suppose that iit is true, i stated that i wouldnt want purgatory "i am not waiting for purgatory either"

 

[MennoSota]

Yes some are still nasty at times. If a teacher on a reformed school becomes a born again tongue speaking evangelical they fire him. But for the rest, oh well, evangelicals can be nasty to them too lol.
Even the atheists in Holland are still a bit calvinist. No public display of luxury cars and all that stuff lol.
I dont agree w Arminius either.

Well...you side stepped the issue entirely and went on a social commentary that doesn't address the issue at all.
The issue is regarding the cause of salvation.
Does a human assist God in the process of salvation by creating their own faith based upon their own reasoning and experiential reaction? Or... Does God work out the process of salvation entirely on his own, apart from our reasoning or actions?