Purgatory?

[MennoSota]

No I had to repent and His grace brought me to repentance cause I wasnt even sorry LOL I mean i had no idea it was bad that i hated people, I was simply obedient and confessed all my sins and yhen I noticed I didnt hate some ppl anymore. the Bible says were saved by grace through faith and it also says you have to confess your sins and confess Him as Lord. Who cares? He did it and Im saved, thats what matters.
Faith w out works is dead.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CcjuC016c68

You are confusing and mixing salvation with sanctification.

God's grace saved you.
Your adoption as a child of God lead you to repentance. (This came after your salvation.)
Confession of sins is a part of sanctification, the process of being made holy, it is not a part of salvation.
Confessing Jesus as Lord comes after your salvation. Example: God saved Paul. Paul responded by saying "Lord."
You should care. If you harbor even a possibility that God needed you to act in order for him to save you, then you harbor a possibility that you control God's outcome. That is a big deal. It is an issue of who is Lord and who is servant. We are not co-equals with Christ. Jesus is not dependent on us to save us.
Indeed faith without works is dead, but once again that is not referring to salvation, but instead to sanctification. The works we do may reveal the gift of faith, which God gave us when he saved us.

 

[Imalive]

I hope you mean that saving Faith will produce works, not that all of that about confessing sins and confessing Christ as Lord means that certain works contribute to one's chances of salvation.

Yes. I hated those ppl. I was 14. They gossiped about me and I hated em and gossipped about them too. If confessing that as sin is a work it was the first work of faith cause without faith I wouldn't have prayed it. The change I noticed after that.

 

[Imalive]

You are confusing and mixing salvation with sanctification.

God's grace saved you.
Your adoption as a child of God lead you to repentance. (This came after your salvation.)
Confession of sins is a part of sanctification, the process of being made holy, it is not a part of salvation.
Confessing Jesus as Lord comes after your salvation. Example: God saved Paul. Paul responded by saying "Lord."
You should care. If you harbor even a possibility that God needed you to act in order for him to save you, then you harbor a possibility that you control God's outcome. That is a big deal. It is an issue of who is Lord and who is servant. We are not co-equals with Christ. Jesus is not dependent on us to save us.
Indeed faith without works is dead, but once again that is not referring to salvation, but instead to sanctification. The works we do may reveal the gift of faith, which God gave us when he saved us.

Before I prayed that He gave me faith to do that, but no way I was saved. I was in that church a few months. I was blind. I had no idea what they were talking about or that I had to accept Jesus' offer or confess sin. After a while it dawned on me that I had to pray the sinners prayer. I thought I was a believer cause I believed God existed but I heard the gospel there for the first time. I didnt even know Jesus died for our sins.

 

[MennoSota]

Before I prayed that He gave me faith to do that, but no way I was saved. I was in that church a few months. I was blind. I had no idea what they were talking about or that I had to accept Jesus' offer or confess sin. After a while it dawned on me that I had to pray the sinners prayer. I thought I was a believer cause I believed God existed but I heard the gospel there for the first time. I didnt even know Jesus died for our sins.

Right, our prayer is not the cause. You said "after awhile it dawned on me." It is that dawning "being made alive" that brought you to confession. The cause was God. He opened your ears by making you alive. The effect was your response.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I knew it. You Protestants are all jealous that your purgatory has no name and is boring!

Catholics rule!!!!!!!!

:smirk:

 

[Albion]

Ah. Another attempt to bring 'Purgatory' into the thread that's supposed to be about Purgatory. Good luck.

 

[Imalive]

Ah. Another attempt to bring 'Purgatory' into the thread that's supposed to be about Purgatory. Good luck.

Purgatory doesnt exist anyway so the protestants dont discuss it.

 

[Albion]

I suppose that's fair to say, but we do examine on boards like this one a range of unBiblical doctrines believed in by other churches. And this one is especially colorful, don't you think? I mean...a doctrine invented in the Middle Ages that says Christians will spend "time," most likely a lot of time, in a place that operates just like Hell except for the fact that it isn't forever. And what will get them there? It's having ever committed a serious sin, even if it was forgive thereafter. That's right. And, of course also, you are to be punished in addition for minor or "venial" sins that were not confessed but aren't serious enough to warrant an eternal Hell. That's just for starters.

You have a chance of avoiding this fate if you get a 'plenary indulgence' for making a pilgrimage or something devotional like that or for saying certain prayers in this life. Other people can get them, too, and assign them to you--which is where having a lot of friends helps!

But there are other indulgences, too. Some for 30 days released from Purgatory, or 3 years, or 7 years, etc. No one knows how to tell time in the afterlife, as we all realize, but these different levels are understood in a general way. One is 2x better than the other, or etc.

The following has been discontinued, but it's interesting that, during the Middle Ages, the church actually gave out certificates like bank notes to certify that a certain indulgence had been obtained. (No, I don't know how you were supposed to cash or redeem them)

But this seemed to raise another issue. Isn't all of the above creating, artificially, new merit? The church solved that problem by saying that saints of old amassed more than they needed--Augustine or St Francis of Assisi, for example--and it was there in the afterlife somewhere. The church referred to the store of excess merits as the "Treasury of Merit" and every indulgence amounted to dipping into that repository for the merit that would shorten any poor soul's time in Purgatory via the Indulgence route.

Fascinatingly Gothic, isn't it?

 

[Imalive]

nm

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

I knew it. You Protestants are all jealous that your purgatory has no name and is boring!

Catholics rule!!!!!!!!

:smirk:

We have no name for your Purgatory because we see that as a papal innovation that led to other moneymaking innovations utterly without a Biblical basis. There's no evidence that " Purgatory" actually exists.

Reformation 500!!

:smirk:

 

[Andrew]

Helped?

OK, but you're the one doing all the posting about Purgatory. You even created the thread with that title. What do you think it is all about? You can even take the shortcut of answering the questions I stated in the past several posts of mine, if you prefer.

I believe that salvation is earned through grace and that grace is the symbolic fire of Gods love that purifies us from a constant continuation of sin, piece by piece for peace we strive in perfection for the Lord. The video described the Catholic term that for some, depending on the heart, if it is heavy in Love of God the process will be more or less intense or last longer or shorter in duration according to the heart.
This literal term is in a sense a non eternal retrograde grace like unto hell with real fire, I however do not agree with the literal sense or that it will happen after physical death. According to the bible there IS a purging of sins BEFORE death which is very painful and as real as fire, but its not literal fire, its Gods love and mercy through grace that will purge you eventually, for some its quicker than others and intense and also depends on the heart, others may suffer slower in their painful sin but might not graduate until much later, indeed I find that most Catholics I notice living completely Holy lives are the elderly. I am definite that they have had an amount of sin in the past but now they are sober. My church I see elderly and babes sober in Christ teaching, the elderly look and act VERY young and have started living a holy life at a young age. See the difference? Thats how I RELATE some what to purgatory, the word PURGE is what stands out for me. I do not however agree in a literal purgatory after physical death, but a spiritual form of actual purging before physical death, its a spiritual rebirth and you repent every sin in fear of shaming the Son of God as stated in Hebrews 6:6, grace still abides none the less, it is not extinguished but is a willingness to obey this teaching, I really cannot see how a person with this understanding would willingly go back to the old Adam and use "grace" as an excuse to sin in such excess once he or she has put on the new man. Eventually we will all serve one master, as even now we do, but which is which? You cannot serve two.
Let grace be what it is, Gods burning fire for us in Love, he is not done with us.
If you feel guilt coming in to your life because of something you did, always be reminded of his "forgiveness" and try with all of your heart to not repeat it over and over again. Let your yes be yes and your no be no and ask God before deciding what you might not be sure about.
I hope this made some sense of my understanding to you.

 

[Albion]

I believe that salvation is earned through grace and that grace is the symbolic fire of Gods love that purifies us from a constant continuation of sin, piece by piece for peace we strive in perfection for the Lord. The video described the Catholic term that for some, depending on the heart, if it is heavy in Love of God the process will be more or less intense or last longer or shorter in duration according to the heart.

This appears not to be about Purgatory.

This literal term is in a sense a non eternal retrograde grace like unto hell with real fire, I however do not agree with the literal sense or that it will happen after physical death.

Are you talking about Purgatory now? Purgatory is not grace or a synonym for grace.

According to the bible there IS a purging of sins BEFORE death which is very painful and as real as fire, but its not literal fire, its Gods love and mercy through grace that will purge you eventually, for some its quicker than others and intense and also depends on the heart, others may suffer slower in their painful sin but might not graduate until much later, indeed I find that most Catholics I notice living completely Holy lives are the elderly. I am definite that they have had an amount of sin in the past but now they are sober.

So this isn't about Purgatory either, in that you are speaking of something happening before death.

My church I see elderly and babes sober in Christ teaching, the elderly look and act VERY young and have started living a holy life at a young age. See the difference? Thats how I RELATE some what to purgatory, the word PURGE is what stands out for me.

Well, we got Purge in there, but it's still not about the Catholic conception of Purgatory (and that's the only major denomination that believes in Purgatory, having created it itself). On the other hand, I could read this as a rejection of Purgatory. I think that's what you are saying here...and you're also offering your own theory about something remedial, albeit in this life.

I do not however agree in a literal purgatory after physical death,

Now we're cooking!

but a spiritual form of actual purging before physical death, its a spiritual rebirth and you repent every sin in fear of shaming the Lors as stated in Hebrews 6:6, grace still abides none the less, it is not extinguished and its willingness to obey this teaching, I really cannot see how a person with this understanding would willingly go back to the old Adam and use "grace" as an excuse to sin in such excess once he or she has put on the new man. Eventually we will all serve one master, as even now we do, but which is which? You cannot serve two.

That doesn't sound like a concept that is similar to Purgatory but different in some way. That is to say, you are talking about a completely different idea here.

Let grace be what it is, Gods burning fire for us in Love, he is not done with us.
If you feel guilt coming in to your life because of something you did, always be reminded of his "forgiveness" and try with all of your heart to not repeat it over and over again. Let your yes be yes and your no be no and ask God before deciding ypu might not be sure about.
I hope this made some sense of my understanding to you.

It did. But as for Purgatory, what I take from your words is that you don't believe in it at all. And that's fine with me; I was just interested to know your views on Purgatory, either pro or con, because you titled the thread, "Purgatory." I guess I expected some sort of point by point evaluation of the doctrine.

Thanks.

 

[Andrew]

This appears not to be about Purgatory.


Are you talking about Purgatory now? Purgatory is not grace or a synonym for grace.


So this isn't about Purgatory either, in that you are speaking of something happening before death.



Well, we got Purge in there, but it's still not about the Catholic conception of Purgatory (and that's the only major denomination that believes in Purgatory, having created it itself). On the other hand, I could read this as a rejection of Purgatory. I think that's what you are saying here...and also offering your own theory about something remedial.


Now we're cooking!


That doesn't sound like a concept that is about something like Purgatory but different in some way. That is to say, you are talking about a completely different idea here.


It did. But as for Purgatory, what I take from your words is that you don't believe in it at all. And that's fine with me; I was just interested to know your views on Purgatory, either pro or con, because the thread was entitled "Purgatory."

Thanks.

Awesome
You are right I do not have the same idea but a new one but its not new its scriptural... for me.
So I understand the former confusion, if I may I just wanted to correct the Catholic view on purging in general. It leans more towards not searching for the truth with all thine heart.
It comes off as another form of indulgence, but what I love about Catholics is the grace of God involved, they are not mostly heavy bible thumpers but if even one gets turned on its even more awesome, God works his grace in on long term Catholics which is why I know that he truly loves his children and the meek. The majority of them may not be educated in scripture but they still serve the lord the best they know how and if they see the light at the hour of death than Hallelujah it is conformation and evidence of the Holy Spirit working through grace! Regardless they usually end up righteous and sober eventually anyway but not so much in youth but rather in elder years, which is just as good, its the holy and graceful purging for the saints

 

[Andrew]

Albion, the sign of a true believer in the word of God is that they dissect every word and statement made by others the way you have to mine, in all honesty, how you dissect my fast paced short rebuttals (because i am usually at work and dont have time for detail) is exactly how I read my bible, we however may never see eye to eye with eachother but we none the less see eye to eye with God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ah. Another attempt to bring 'Purgatory' into the thread that's supposed to be about Purgatory. Good luck.

Yeah, luck is needed for it. To be sure. To be sure

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Yeah, luck is needed for it. To be sure. To be sure

Indeed. Well, don't certain groups, such as the Anglicans, Catholics and Greek Orthodox support the idea of Purgatory? I wonder what their respective thoughts would be on the subject?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Indeed. Well, don't certain groups, such as the Anglicans, Catholics and Greek Orthodox support the idea of Purgatory? I wonder what their respective thoughts would be on the subject?

The Orthodox most certainly do but they too run away from the word "purgatory" forgetting their heritage and seeking to be as different from "Rome" as they can be without abandoning all of their Traditions. Anglicans are confusing. Nobody really knows what a "true Anglican" is. They have spilt into liberal and evangelical and high church and low church factions so nobody knows what Anglicanism is about.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

The Orthodox most certainly do but they too run away from the word "purgatory" forgetting their heritage and seeking to be as different from "Rome" as they can be without abandoning all of their Traditions. Anglicans are confusing. Nobody really knows what a "true Anglican" is. They have spilt into liberal and evangelical and high church and low church factions so nobody knows what Anglicanism is about.

Ah, yes. A dapper gentleman from another forum opined more than once that Anglicans are indeed a motley crew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM9BR55nA2U&t=31s

 

[MoreCoffee]

We need more Purgatorial discussion now.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

We need more Purgatorial discussion now.

Purgatory.
Catechismus Romanus, I, vi, 3: “Besides [hell] there is a purging fire, by which the souls of the pious, tormented for a set time, are purified, so that they might enter the eternal fatherland, into which nothing defiled enters.” Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, Sess. XXV, Decree Concerning Purgatory: “There is a purgatory, and … the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar… The more difficult and subtle questions … are to be excluded from popular instructions to uneducated people. Likewise, things that are uncertain or have the appearance of falsehood they shall not permit to be made known publicly and discussed.” RCm refers to 2 Mac 12:43–45.
C. N. Callinicos, The Greek Orthodox Catechism (New York, 1960), p. 48: “Scripture … has never expressed anything whatever concerning a third state, such as a temporary Purgatory.”
The idea of purgatory entered the Ch. of Eng. through the Oxford* Movement (see also England, C 7) in the form of an intermediate* state but without developing into a gen. accepted teaching. Common opinion makes it less a process of purification than of development and growth, ending only at the Last Judgment.
Lutherans. regard purgatory as unscriptural, insulting to Christ, indefensible, mercenary. WA 7, 452; 30 III, 309; 44, 812; WA-T 3, 539.
See also Florence, Council of, 2; Indulgences. http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=P&word=PURGATORY

So you see, MC, for Lutherans, Purgatory simply isn't a topic discussed beyond its connection to the Catholic Church. I hope this humble offering from the LCMS Cyclopedia website offers some insight, though.