Gift of Tongues

[Albion]

Also if the tongues they spoke were only foreign than whats the logic of needing an interpreter if a foreigner can hear what they are saying?

I'd say that that's because no one in the assembly where the words have been spoken speak that language. In your church, for example, no one (or maybe only one in a hundred) would know what was meant if the language were, say, Vietnamese. Quite obviously, I'd say, a translator would be needed if the message were to have any meaning.

Like in acts, they were speaking for foreigners but none of them were interpreting anything it was a miracle.

Yes, but we know from that passage of Scripture that each heard as if it were being said in their own languages. No one who believes in the genuineness of today's tongues that I've heard of contends that THIS happens today.

Tongues of men or angels...

Do angels speak languages with tongues as we do?

 

[Andrew]

I'd say that that's because no one in the assembly where the words have been spoken speak that language. In your church, for example, no one (or maybe only one in a hundred) would know what was meant if the language were, say, Vietnamese. Quite obviously, I'd say, a translator would be needed if the message were to have any meaning.

That sounds more like a translator and seems very Confusing as well, but nice try, I have to disagree tho


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[Albion]

That sounds more like a translator and seems very Confusing as well, but nice try, I have to disagree tho

I'm assuming that a translator amounts to an interpreter in such a case...unless the message is so elusive that no one knows what it's all about. Why you'd call this 'confusing,' I can only guess.

 

[Imalive]

I'm assuming that a translator amounts to an interpreter in such a case...unless the message is so elusive that no one knows what it's all about. Why you'd call this 'confusing,' I can only guess.

then the Bible had said one needs to translate and not that noone could understand it.

 

[Andrew]

I'd say that that's because no one in the assembly where the words have been spoken speak that language. In your church, for example, no one (or maybe only one in a hundred) would know what was meant if the language were, say, Vietnamese. Quite obviously, I'd say, a translator would be needed if the message were to have any meaning.


Yes, but we know from that passage of Scripture that each heard as if it were being said in their own languages. No one who believes in the genuineness of today's tongues that I've heard of contends that THIS happens today.


Do angels speak languages with tongues as we do?

So you accept that if many different foreigners came to my church that they would all hear in their language what was being spoken of, and no interpretation needed? Because if it were needed, a translator/interpreter, they would have to have many mouths or go around the room one by one, and thats why i say its confusing.

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[Albion]

So you accept that if many different foreigners came to my church that they would all hear in their language what was being spoken of, and no interpretation needed?

No, there must have been some misunderstanding about what I was saying there.

Because if it were needed, a translator/interpreter, they would have to have many mouths or go around the room one by one, and thats why i say its confusing.

I suppose that would be confusing, yes.

 

[MennoSota]

Also if the tongues they spoke were only foreign than whats the logic of needing an interpreter if a foreigner can hear what they are saying? Like in acts, they were speaking for foreigners but none of them were interpreting anything it was a miracle.
In the church of corinth however Paul speaks of angelic tongues or unknown tongues that need interpretation.
If someone in my church was speaking chinese to an english party why wouldnt God just have the speaker speak in english UNLESS its a completely unknown/angelic tongue that NEEDS interpretation?
Tongues of men or angels...
hmmmmmm


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Those who heard and understood the language in Acts 2 were sharing the interpretation with those who could not understand. Always, in Acts, the language is understood by people in the audience. It is always a sign that brings the message of reconciliation to the previously unreached.
What is happening in Corinth is worldliness. Paul doesn't say he speaks angelic languages. He gives an analogy saying "if" I spoke...
Paul is saying that even if it were possible for him to speak an angelic tongue, he would rather speak a language he knew (ie Greek) so that he and others could be encouraged by the message.

 

[MennoSota]

then the Bible had said one needs to translate and not that noone could understand it.

The problem is that the translations are horribly wrong.
I gave you the story of Pastor Gardiner having his friend speak the 23rd Psalm in Yiddish and the failure to correctly translate.

 

[Andrew]

The problem is that the translations are horribly wrong.
I gave you the story of Pastor Gardiner having his friend speak the 23rd Psalm in Yiddish and the failure to correctly translate.

Weren't you advocating the unimportance of "feelings and experience"? Or was that Albion?
Was the reading in Yiddish, genuine?
If you can please repost this testimony.
When you say "having his friend speak" it sounds like "asking" someone a favor on Gods behalf.
We are diligently examining Corinthians for the sake of truth about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and mainly the lest important of them all, the gift of tongues.
From what I have provided through scripture is.
1. Two languages, of and men and of angels.
2. The logical differentiation between the two, foreign hearers need no interpretation as they hear their native tongue of man, the other is unknown to any man and is of angelic tongues or origin for its described as foreign to man, barbaric in mans nature, for barbaric is not a human language.
3. That what Paul taught in Corinth is very much due for today in deep understanding and examination. It is said... "Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Corinthians 1:1-8
Has the second coming of Christ come?
I am mostly pleased by you and Albion for raising uncertainty and magnifying this debate. If you or I benefit in knowledge at the end of the debate, we all benefit as one.
May the truth be revealed. You and I know truth, I stand on my testimony of what speaking tongues really is to a believer of tongues and by God, but I will that you receive revelation and understanding towards this topic of debate. That you come to peace with the operations of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus unto us thy temple.
4. It's a form of worship and praise according to Paul, for NO man understands this language but by God and his messengers, through prophesy, and unto his interpreters, and at the very least to one's self. For this is the lowest of gifts.





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[MennoSota]

Weren't you advocating the unimportance of "feelings and experience"? Or was that Albion?
Was the reading in Yiddish, genuine?
If you can please repost this testimony.
When you say "having his friend speak" it sounds like "asking" someone a favor on Gods behalf.
We are diligently examining Corinthians for the sake of truth about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and mainly the lest important of them all, the gift of tongues.
From what I have provided through scripture is.
1. Two languages, of and men and of angels.
2. The logical differentiation between the two, foreign hearers need no interpretation as they hear their native tongue of man, the other is unknown to any man and is of angelic tongues or origin for its described as foreign to man, barbaric in mans nature, for barbaric is not a human language.
3. That what Paul taught in Corinth is very much due for today in deep understanding and examination. It is written... "Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Corinthians 1:1-8
Has the second coming of Christ come?
I am mostly pleased by you and Albion for raising uncertainty and magnifying this debate. If you or I benefit in knowledge at the end of the debate, we all benefit as one.
May the truth be revealed. You and I know truth, I stand on my testimony of what speaking tongues really is to a believer of tongues and by God, but I will that you receive revelation and understanding towards this topic of debate. That you come to peace with the operations of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.
4. It's a form of worship and praise according to Paul, for NO man understands this language but by God and his messengers, and unto his interpreters, and at the very least to one's self. For this is the lowest of gifts.





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I use Tapatalk so I don't know how to check back on a post quickly. I think the information should be near the beginning of the tongues thread.
The gist is that Pastor Gardiner grew up in a pentacostal family and went to a pentacostal Bible school. At the daily chapel people were speaking in tongues and someone would interpret. He began to doubt the legitimacy of the tongues and interpretation. His friend at the school had memorized the 23rd Psalm in Yiddish so they tested the legitimacy of the interpretation being done by going to the chapel and having his friend quote the 23rd Psalm. The translation was something else entirely and wholly missed the mark. Pastor Gardiner then began a thorough study of the gift of tongues. He ended up writing a short book, which is now out of print, but I still have entitled "The Corinthian Catastrophe."
I mentioned earlier that Paul did not say he prayed in angelic tongues. He was saying, hypothetically, if I spoke in the tongue of angels, I would still rather speak intelligent words to the body rather than something I can't understand.
We need to realize that the Corinthians are not the group we want to emulate when it comes to any of the gifts. That church was a worldly mess. God had killed some of them for abusing the Lord's supper. Stay away from the Corinthians when trying to understand legitimate speaking in tongues.
Let me be clear. I do think God may still use the gift of tongues today, but it will only be on the front line of the mission field with unreached peoples.

 

[Albion]

I am mostly pleased by you and Albion for raising uncertainty and magnifying this debate. If you or I benefit in knowledge at the end of the debate, we all benefit as one.
May the truth be revealed. You and I know truth, I stand on my testimony of what speaking tongues really is to a believer of tongues and by God, but I will that you receive revelation and understanding towards this topic of debate. That you come to peace with the operations of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus unto us thy temple.
4. It's a form of worship and praise according to Paul, for NO man understands this language but by God and his messengers, through prophesy, and unto his interpreters, and at the very least to one's self. For this is the lowest of gifts.

I am just about persuaded that this topic has gone on too long, but after all that has been said, the sentence I have highlighted above brings us back to the critical point.

No, "it" is NOT "a form of worship and praise according to Paul."

What Paul experienced and referred to was a form of worship and praise according to Paul.

That is what he was speaking of--not any and all experiences, by anyone at any time and place, that are thought by someone or other to be like what Paul described.

 

[Andrew]

I use Tapatalk so I don't know how to check back on a post quickly. I think the information should be near the beginning of the tongues thread.
The gist is that Pastor Gardiner grew up in a pentacostal family and went to a pentacostal Bible school. At the daily chapel people were speaking in tongues and someone would interpret. He began to doubt the legitimacy of the tongues and interpretation. His friend at the school had memorized the 23rd Psalm in Yiddish so they tested the legitimacy of the interpretation being done by going to the chapel and having his friend quote the 23rd Psalm. The translation was something else entirely and wholly missed the mark. Pastor Gardiner then began a thorough study of the gift of tongues. He ended up writing a short book, which is now out of print, but I still have entitled "The Corinthian Catastrophe."
I mentioned earlier that Paul did not say he prayed in angelic tongues. He was saying, hypothetically, if I spoke in the tongue of angels, I would still rather speak intelligent words to the body rather than something I can't understand.
We need to realize that the Corinthians are not the group we want to emulate when it comes to any of the gifts. That church was a worldly mess. God had killed some of them for abusing the Lord's supper. Stay away from the Corinthians when trying to understand legitimate speaking in tongues.
Let me be clear. I do think God may still use the gift of tongues today, but it will only be on the front line of the mission field with unreached peoples.

That is what Paul was preaching at the time to the Corinthians but I certainly believe that to this day as is all scripture be true, that for all us Christians to rediscover divine truth, and tho the deeds of the devil do edit and cover up as much as he can for a certain amount of time, that the truth may be revealed.
When the theory of the church ages came to acknowledgement I understood it almost as if I had always known it, the Bible do speak.
I believe it was pronounced to every age this understanding of "revelation of the ages".
We do not wish to rehash the problem at Corinth, but there must be a reason it was not excluded completely, somebody then knew it needed to be kept. Revelation is relevant now for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear as it were for a former age of the church, I believe we likewise rediscover truth for a time, as even before christians had the same revelation of the Spirit speaking to its age. I AM knows the future better than ones its past.
There is a time and place for reproach under God at any of his given times.
As far as this so called revival of tongues is concerned, or perhaps the revival of all the Holy gifts, keep in mind that the last church age are as the first fruits. The true witnesses who hold and behold the testimony of Jesus Christ. The faithful and true.
"I do think God may still use the gift of tongues today"
Amen brother, "may" is a mighty word.
We are in this together in Christ, we certainly must act as such. Whether it be beads of a rosary or by scripture alone we must endure and love one another.
The apostasy of an age will not take the child from the mother for God will hide them and feed them and the dragon shall feed no more, as it were in genesis the beginning so shall it be for all of Gods witnesses till the end
Take freely of the tree of life and of the life giving waters.



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[Andrew]

No, "it" is NOT "a form of worship and praise according to Paul."

"Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?"

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[MennoSota]

[MENTION=387]DHoffmann[/MENTION], this is for another thread, but I highly recommend Robert H Mounce book on Revelation if you wish to understand the letters to the Churches.
Mounce's historical research on each of the churches is fantastic and helps you understand how the original readers would have understood the meaning.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I use Tapatalk so I don't know how to check back on a post quickly. I think the information should be near the beginning of the tongues thread.
The gist is that Pastor Gardiner grew up in a Pentecostal family and went to a Pentecostal Bible school. At the daily chapel people were speaking in tongues and someone would interpret. He began to doubt the legitimacy of the tongues and interpretation. His friend at the school had memorized the 23rd Psalm in Yiddish so they tested the legitimacy of the interpretation being done by going to the chapel and having his friend quote the 23rd Psalm. The translation was something else entirely and wholly missed the mark. Pastor Gardiner then began a thorough study of the gift of tongues. He ended up writing a short book, which is now out of print, but I still have entitled "The Corinthian Catastrophe."
I mentioned earlier that Paul did not say he prayed in angelic tongues. He was saying, hypothetically, if I spoke in the tongue of angels, I would still rather speak intelligent words to the body rather than something I can't understand.
...
...

I agree with the quote above. I read "the Corinthian catastrophe" and I've read other books that critique Charismatic and Pentecostal practices. I've also read books by Pentecostals advocating the "nine gifts of the Spirit" and teaching about them. I've also been a member of a Pentecostal church for a while. My opinion after experiencing Pentecostal "life in the Spirit" is that it is not true. It is all sorts of things, peer pressure, emotional release, psychological needs, fun, exciting, loud and modern, all sorts of things but it is fundamentally a human enterprise and not the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Andrew]

[MENTION=387]DHoffmann[/MENTION], this is for another thread, but I highly recommend Robert H Mounce book on Revelation if you wish to understand the letters to the Churches.
Mounce's historical research on each of the churches is fantastic and helps you understand how the original readers would have understood the meaning.

Awesome brother thank you so much
I absolutely love this topic but am fairly new to it.

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[MennoSota]

Inner wrist tattoo officially named the 10th fruit of the Spirit! (satire )
http://babylonbee.com/news/inner-wrist-tattoo-officially-named-10th-fruit-spirit/

 

[Andrew]

I agree with the quote above. I read "the Corinthian catastrophe" and I've read other books that critique Charismatic and Pentecostal practices. I've also read books by Pentecostals advocating the "nine gifts of the Spirit" and teaching about them. I've also been a member of a Pentecostal church for a while. My opinion after experiencing Pentecostal "life in the Spirit" is that it is not true. It is all sorts of things, peer pressure, emotional release, psychological needs, fun, exciting, loud and modern, all sorts of things but it is fundamentally a human enterprise and not the work of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. Its very pushy and unstructured.
Much dogma has already incorporated itself into her but in all honesty it has transformed myself and others in what seems to be an instant. Very quickening indeed.
It needs major changes of its views on outside churches. Its supposed to be in my understanding, the original apostolic church that Catholicism ("pagan rome") had entered into to retain its dominance and is now returned to rapture the true and faithful christians. No one has out right said this but I gather this and that and it really doesnt change my mind that all who believe in Christ will not be let down. Walk into a pentecostal and most likely you will re examine your faithfulness to the Lord and fall down in worship on to repentance. Every church has its short comings but there is a reason for this "new" rescue church to come in to play in our current days.
There is something being overlooked or missed and I think it has something to do with an integration of some sorts. It has some power in it but its guided by outside judgments and is very cautious of protecting itself to the point of overkill.
Keep in mind that Christianity was a "cult" as defined by the church state of ancient pagan rome at the time and this movement of Pentecostalism is considered a "cult" among the mainstream of Christianity which is mostly Catholicism and much of Protestant, they are both against the Pentecostals.
I can see why, an invisible wounded head is trying to manifest itself through the UPCI when fellowship as I included, agrees hardly at all with its wiley impositions. Pray for us that if this church be truly of God that it may not fall short by the grace of God and suffer its persecution by humility at most.




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[Albion]

"Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying?"

It appears that you missed my point.

In defense of your POV, you wrote: It's a form of worship and praise according to Paul. By It you meant your experience and the others of todays charismatics. But Paul was speaking of the experience he had and witnessed. You aren't part of that. That happened 2000 years ago. You are only thinking that it's the same thing or a continuation of what Paul was dealing with.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree. Its very pushy and unstructured.
Much dogma has already incorporated itself into her but in all honesty it has transformed myself and others in what seems to be an instant. Very quickening indeed.
It needs major changes of its views on outside churches. Its supposed to be in my understanding, the original apostolic church that Catholicism ("pagan rome") had entered into to retain its dominance and is now returned to rapture the true and faithful christians. No one has out right said this but I gather this and that and it really doesnt change my mind that all who believe in Christ will not be let down. Walk into a pentecostal and most likely you will re examine your faithfulness to the Lord and fall down in worship on to repentance. Every church has its short comings but there is a reason for this "new" rescue church to come in to play in our current days.
There is something being overlooked or missed and I think it has something to do with an integration of some sorts. It has some power in it but its guided by outside judgments and is very cautious of protecting itself to the point of overkill.
Keep in mind that Christianity was a "cult" as defined by the church state of ancient pagan rome at the time and this movement of Pentecostalism is considered a "cult" among the mainstream of Christianity which is mostly Catholicism and much of Protestant, they are both against the Pentecostals.
I can see why, an invisible wounded head is trying to manifest itself through the UPCI when fellowship as I included, agrees hardly at all with its wiley impositions. Pray for us that if this church be truly of God that it may not fall short by the grace of God and suffer its persecution by humility at most.
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Is UPCI the United Pentecostal Church International?