For Those Who Have Not Been Healed

[tango]

oh noo not the old .. god doesn't always heal because timothy wasn't line again.. lets just ignore every account of every healing in the bible and sow doubt into everyone because it says tim was sick.. -did he die? nope .. so i guess he recovered (just as it says in james ).
Im not trying to make any point ..im simply agreeing with the lord jesus ..because he is the truth (absolute ) and im not agreeing with him based on my comprehension but simply because he said it and he is truth . shall i cease from believing because some come along and says .."ouhh but timothy wasn't healed ".. well NO! i will not nor will i encourage any one in any thing but to learn, develop and grow into absolute FAith with childlike simplicity and obedience that they may be built up (edified) i the most Holy Faith .
Everything the lord sees us go through he uses to further develop his character in us .. therefore we give thanks in all things and realize that sometimes delayed healing of the body works healing correction of the soul and uncovers the sincerity of a person's faith .
but never will i preach anything that even remotely implies that "God cannot" .. as more often it is us that "will not believe" .

I don't see anybody saying God doesn't heal, you're throwing more strawmen out there.

If you want to claim that God always heals (which was pretty much the original premise of the thread) then a single situation in which God did not heal means the theory needs to be re-examined. It only takes one. If you have a room with a million sick people in it and 999,999 of them are healed, it is not true to say that God healed everybody. So commenting about rejecting every account of every healing in the Bible falls totally flat because that backs my stance rather than yours. My stance, that God sometimes heals, is supported by the Bible. Your stance, that God always heals, is not because Timothy's situation demonstrates a case where God did not heal. My stance, that God heals in some but not all situations, is entirely consistent with Timothy's not being healed. The stance that God always heals is not, and therefore needs to explain why Timothy was not healed or why a universal guarantee applies to everybody except Timothy.

Did he die? Presumably he did at some point, but that's not the issue here, it's just another deflection from the topic at hand. The point is he wasn't healed, just like many today are not healed. If you want to say that he recovered and therefore everything counts you're effectively saying "God didn't heal him but he got over it" as proof that God heals everybody. To be perfectly honest that reasoning plumbs new levels of absurdity.

There's no need to carry on with the "I'm agreeing with Jesus" line as if nobody else is. If anything you're the one not in alignment with the word of God because the word of God clearly shows a situation where a man of God was not healed, and therefore the idea that "God always heals" is demonstrably false.

If you cut away the fallacies, the strawmen, the dodging and the deflections, and the irrelevant posturing then maybe we could get to the root of the matter. If some people are healed and some people are not healed then it is not true to say that everybody is healed. That's basic reasoning. If you want to continue to believe in something that is demonstrably not true that is your absolute right but let's not be pretending that you're taking a moral, spiritual or intellectual high ground by doing so. If you want to believe that God can and does heal that's entirely consistent with Scripture and with experience. If you want to believe that God always heals then Timothy's case will be a thorn in the side until you either master doublethink or explain it.

Frankly your post is so full of strawmen there's very little left once they are all removed. Nobody said "God cannot", merely "God does not". Unless God somehow lost his status as God he gets to choose what he does and when, so "God chose not to heal" is a perfectly valid situation. Can you point to a single post here that says God cannot do anything? If not, I guess that's just another strawman.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

The trouble I have with the teaching that "God will always heal if you believe," is that if the person doesn't get healed, the implication is, "You didn't believe right! You're not a good Christian!"

 

[johnhope1948]

The trouble I have with the teaching that "God will always heal if you believe," is that if the person doesn't get healed, the implication is, "You didn't believe right! You're not a good Christian!"

I have a friend who told me if I get I'll, it's because I don't have enough faith in God. That makes me feel terrible.

 

[Lamb]

I have a friend who told me if I get I'll, it's because I don't have enough faith in God. That makes me feel terrible.

Yeah, it makes people feel awful to hear that because God allows us to get sick. God allows us to have diseases. God allows us to die. It's not up to us to turn that around because of "faith".

 

[Alithis]

seems a tacht change has been taken .. who said God always heals? im saying his word is true and he is always faithful to it .
and if he is always faithful to his word which is truth ..then when it seems that his word is not fulfilled it is our own hearts we must search out for what is wrong .,., because its not God who is wrong. he says in his word that promises are not entered into because of unbelief.. i know im my life its been unbelief that has blocked me from obtaining some promises in the past.

why folks are so adverse to being honest about these issues i don't know ..why hide from the lord who sees everything any way .... that in itself is unbelief that he knows and sees everything especially the intent of the heart .

my point is that even when things don't go how I think they should go or how YOU think they should go that we still hold fast and stanfast i faith .and encourage all believers to do so .knowing that he will raise us up again in due time .
what we must NEVER do is seed doubt and discouragement by ambiguous questionings which do not edify but erode faith.

 

[tango]

seems a tacht change has been taken .. who said God always heals?

The original post in the thread.

Timothy not being healed isn't a big issue unless you believe that God always heals. If God only heals some of the time then Timothy's situation isn't problematic. I'd have thought you might have spotted that earlier.

Given just a few posts back your exact words were "oh noo not the old .. god doesn't always heal because timothy wasn't line again.." it's surprising that now you're suddenly questioning who says God always heals. Did you have a sudden change of heart, or did you just miss several chances to point out that Timothy not being healed wasn't a problem because God doesn't always heal. If that's the case then you agree with me that the WOF teaching described in the original post is fatally flawed. That, too, would be surprising given your comments in recent posts. But if you have had a sudden change of heart that's great. Embrace it, and rejoice in it.

 

[tango]

The trouble I have with the teaching that "God will always heal if you believe," is that if the person doesn't get healed, the implication is, "You didn't believe right! You're not a good Christian!"

I'm led to believe (by a person I trust) that the teachings of Bethel (which include the idea that God will always heal) are doing untold damage to the body of Christ in Latin America. That's largely because of the issues people must address if they aren't healed. When the likes of Bill Johnson rabbit their mantras that fundamentally boil down to "there is no sickness in heaven, therefore sickness has no place on earth" but apparently can't explain why sickness still exists on earth, it's hardly surprising that people who stand on the promises God never made end up rejecting God for breaking his promises rather than rejecting Johnson for selling them a pig in a poke.

 

[seekingsolace]

We can't always have what we want, regardless of faith. Gods will is all that matters; seek to align with it - not make demands based off ours.

I don't think it's a lack of faith that allows humans to suffer, mourn and be persecuted. None of us understand Gods judgment, or what He has purposed for not only us, but all creation.

Its quite hurtful for a good Christian to face accusations from others, that their illness or evil that has befallen them is their fault. I think Job illustrates this well enough.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

What good parent always does what the child wants? How will children learn anything if the parent always makes life easy and takes away all of the challenges? Can there be a lesson learned in an illness or an affliction? Is God duty-bound to say yes to me every time I ask Him for something? Then that would make Him my obedient servant, and me His master and lord. But no, it's the other way around. I serve Him, and He makes the decisions. I don't always understand the reasons for those decisions, just as children don't always understand why Mom or Dad makes them go through something they find unpleasant. Children need to trust that Mom or Dad knows best. I need to trust that God knows best, even if it looks like He's just letting me suffer.

 

[psalms 91]

We can't always have what we want, regardless of faith. Gods will is all that matters; seek to align with it - not make demands based off ours.

I don't think it's a lack of faith that allows humans to suffer, mourn and be persecuted. None of us understand Gods judgment, or what He has purposed for not only us, but all creation.

Its quite hurtful for a good Christian to face accusations from others, that their illness or evil that has befallen them is their fault. I think Job illustrates this well enough.

It is called original sin.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Word of Faith teaches that healing is our promise from God.

When people do not get Healed often times they are angry at faith being taught for healing.

Some say I have believed but nothing happened.

I find this passage in James interesting:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

[15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Notice vs 15,it is clear on the prayer of Faith,as well notice it's not the sick persons faith that saves them it is the elders prayer of Faith.

Now if the sick are prayed over the healing is conditional upon those doing the praying.

Hopefully they do not end the prayer with if it be thine will.

The anointing with oil from the elders is one way to be healed,but if your not any better after then find elders with faith.

As I mentioned this passage is unconditional even sin cannot prevail against the prayer of Faith,so seek out a Church that gets results, a Church that has a funeral on a rare occasion.

But if your in a Church that the congregation is just as bad off as the world, there is something wrong healing is not a gamble its a promise from God.

I feel that all good is of God, and with that, based on the teachings of Christ, we must have faith that our direction is indeed the will of God, for if it is not, then is that not sin? If we pray for wants or needs, it seems to me, a necessity for them to be God's will, and not solely our own. Free will can lead to negative will, and not be righteous.

Thoughts please?
Thanks.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[popsthebuilder]

We must not hasten or wish that our return home be soon. We must be thankful for all that we are given to do his work with. Our time here is but a blink in comparison to eternity in literal heaven or paradise. Our pains and obstacles are but tests, and we must be thankful for every opportunity and the lack there of to profess our faith and thankfulness to the One Creator. This relates to a form of constant prayer or reflection and allows us not to be swayed in the wind.

Thanks

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[seekingsolace]

It is called original sin.

Not quite sure what you mean Bill. I don't feel that has a bearing on what I said.

The point was: A christian assumption that healing is always based on faith - or in fact on demand. Is in itself an accusation to the unhealed party, whether passively or direct. Consideration is not taken for Gods will; only human desire. We don't earn the right to be healed, for what favour do we deserve. All we have, and ever will has been given us.

 

[tango]

We can't always have what we want, regardless of faith. Gods will is all that matters; seek to align with it - not make demands based off ours.

I don't think it's a lack of faith that allows humans to suffer, mourn and be persecuted. None of us understand Gods judgment, or what He has purposed for not only us, but all creation.

Its quite hurtful for a good Christian to face accusations from others, that their illness or evil that has befallen them is their fault. I think Job illustrates this well enough.

Jesus also said we had to take up our cross and follow him.

I never could understand the reasoning behind apparently accepting all sorts of things befalling us, accepting trials and persecutions but somehow expecting sickness to be lifted out as a special case all on its own.

I agree with you that we can learn a lot from Job - not only did God not relieve him of his afflictions, he specifically allowed Satan to test Job (albeit within limits) to see how Job would manage. Then he clearly corrected the people (such as Eliphaz) who essentially told Job that his afflictions were because he had done something wrong.

 

[tango]

We must not hasten or wish that our return home be soon. We must be thankful for all that we are given to do his work with. Our time here is but a blink in comparison to eternity in literal heaven or paradise. Our pains and obstacles are but tests, and we must be thankful for every opportunity and the lack there of to profess our faith and thankfulness to the One Creator. This relates to a form of constant prayer or reflection and allows us not to be swayed in the wind.

It's interesting to see the people who quote a few verses in James to insist that healing is guaranteed seem to ignore the fact that James opened his letter saying his readers should count it as joy when they fall into various trials. Presumably he forgot to mention that "various trials" didn't include being sick, and when he wrote that having out faith tested produces patience maybe he forgot to mention that having faith tested by not being healed didn't count. Maybe that's what was going on with poor Timothy.

 

[Alithis]

It's interesting to see the people who quote a few verses in James to insist that healing is guaranteed seem to ignore the fact that James opened his letter saying his readers should count it as joy when they fall into various trials. Presumably he forgot to mention that "various trials" didn't include being sick, and when he wrote that having out faith tested produces patience maybe he forgot to mention that having faith tested by not being healed didn't count. Maybe that's what was going on with poor Timothy.

who has quoted james to insist that healing is guaranteed ... i have quoted james to insist that Gods word is true and he is faithful to it .

as i have said elswhere .faith is not assumimg god will do what i will when i will that he does .. but is trusting him to do what he wills and he always does what is ultimately for my good ..if that means teaching me to persevere through and illness then Job said .." though he slay me yet will i trust him" .. but job was ultimately healed and restored and if we do not waver in faith we shall be also . folks look to god in this modern age in a foolish impatient manner as if they can enter the info and hit the enter key and have instant effect .. but the lord wills to do his perfect will in his perfect time.. trust and faith waits and is patient in perseverance and does not waver in the face of adversity -on this you and i agree very much i notice .. i like that, in posts after this one i hope to pursue that point of agreement
iv looked further into timothy and i cannot find any reference to him growing worse in illness and passing away .. which is what happened when people are not healed .
so we can only assume he went on and lived which means he recovered .it lists no disease nor injury .. there is a huge lump of assumption based teaching on it which really only supports unbelief rather then faith .especially in light of the text surrounding it- meaning its a verse yanked out of context and misconstrued to sure up a weak teaching in support of unbelief . . it seems he went on to live fine.. For all we know he lived in a place where certain diet gave him ailment and it is known that a little wine aids in digestion . thus not a sickness but a diet induced problem balanced by "a little wine for thy stomach's sake and the often infirmities being simple stomach aches caused by diet . (also equal assumptions ) but to use that as God will not do as we ask him according to his will is mostly just self justification of unbelief .


He said, "If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you."

i really find that saying we quote a verse in james as our only support is rather a misrepresentation considering it is further backed through the entirety of the scriptures --to name a few
...-And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”


-He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.

-Who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases,

-He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

-And when this had taken place, the rest of the people on the island who had diseases also came and were cured.

-When he went ashore he saw a great crowd, and he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

-Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.

-And those who were troubled with unclean spirits were cured. And all the crowd sought to touch him, for power came out from him and healed them all.

etc ...........

be encouraged everyone .. stand still and stand firm in the lord JEsus Only BELIEVE

 

[tango]

who has quoted james to insist that healing is guaranteed ... i have quoted james to insist that Gods word is true and he is faithful to it .

as i have said elswhere .faith is not assumimg god will do what i will when i will that he does .. but is trusting him to do what he wills and he always does what is ultimately for my good ..if that means teaching me to persevere through and illness then Job said .." though he slay me yet will i trust him" .. but job was ultimately healed and restored and if we do not waver in faith we shall be also . folks look to god in this modern age in a foolish impatient manner as if they can enter the info and hit the enter key and have instant effect .. but the lord wills to do his perfect will in his perfect time.. trust and faith waits and is patient in perseverance and does not waver in the face of adversity -on this you and i agree very much i notice .. i like that, in posts after this one i hope to pursue that point of agreement
iv looked further into timothy and i cannot find any reference to him growing worse in illness and passing away .. which is what happened when people are not healed .
so we can only assume he went on and lived which means he recovered .it lists no disease nor injury .. there is a huge lump of assumption based teaching on it which really only supports unbelief rather then faith .especially in light of the text surrounding it- meaning its a verse yanked out of context and misconstrued to sure up a weak teaching in support of unbelief . . it seems he went on to live fine.. For all we know he lived in a place where certain diet gave him ailment and it is known that a little wine aids in digestion . thus not a sickness but a diet induced problem balanced by "a little wine for thy stomach's sake and the often infirmities being simple stomach aches caused by diet . (also equal assumptions ) but to use that as God will not do as we ask him according to his will is mostly just self justification of unbelief .


He said, "If you listen carefully to the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you."

i really find that saying we quote a verse in james as our only support is rather a misrepresentation considering it is further backed through the entirety of the scriptures --to name a few
...-And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.”


-He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.

-Who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases,

-He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

-And when this had taken place, the rest of the people on the island who had diseases also came and were cured.

-When he went ashore he saw a great crowd, and he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

-Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.

-And those who were troubled with unclean spirits were cured. And all the crowd sought to touch him, for power came out from him and healed them all.

etc ...........

be encouraged everyone .. stand still and stand firm in the lord JEsus Only BELIEVE

... which still doesn't explain why Timothy wasn't healed.

 

[Alithis]

t least im honest about my assumptions .. and it is still an assumption that ultimately he was not healed

 

[tango]

t least im honest about my assumptions .. and it is still an assumption that ultimately he was not healed

It's not an assumption that Paul told him to "take a little wine" and not "present yourself to the elders". That's very clear from the text. The text in James is clear about the effect of the prayers of a righteous man, so we have to wonder whether Paul forgot to pray for poor Timothy or he just wasn't sufficiently righteous.

But I guess from your ongoing deflection you still can't explain what was going on with Timothy.

 

[psalms 91]

It's not an assumption that Paul told him to "take a little wine" and not "present yourself to the elders". That's very clear from the text. The text in James is clear about the effect of the prayers of a righteous man, so we have to wonder whether Paul forgot to pray for poor Timothy or he just wasn't sufficiently righteous.

But I guess from your ongoing deflection you still can't explain what was going on with Timothy.

Nor can you, you just assume