For Those Who Have Not Been Healed

[tango]

now im giving you an example of dissecting a post so much it becomes buried in meaningless ambiguity of many points and many words all blurring out the straight forward truth of a matter .
which can amount to a form of lying .. asking questions which flod the heart with doubt and uncertaintly -ie .. Did god reeeally say ...?

But I am asking "Did God really say?" and make no pretense of doing anything else. The question here is effectively "did God really say healing is guaranteed?".

There's no blurring of the straightforward truth, if anything it's about trying to find the truth by studying and reasoning rather than addressing questions with little more than vague comments about faith and carnal reasoning. I'm assuming God gave me a mind for a reason, and I can't "love the Lord with all of my mind" or "study to show (myself) approved" without using this particular tool that God gave me.

are there other kinds of doctors other then human ?

Now who is picking with silly arguments? I'm talking about going to a human doctor instead of assuming that the divine doctor in heaven will heal us. I'm sure you knew that.

- did anyone actually say outright that going to a doctor shows a lack of faith in God i recall i said it displays whom we have the most faith in ..as it depends upon whom we call on ..man or god to save us .

OK, let me reword it. Does going to work display where our faith is? If you disapprove of going to the doctor then logically you must also disapprove of going to work. It's not a huge leap to argue that you must also disapprove of looking before you cross the road, thereby trusting in your own understanding rather than in God's power to protect you from the trucks.

are you saying that having faith in God above all else is absurd ? thats absurd

Having faith in God is a good thing. Having faith in a promise God never made is not a good thing. Hence the whole point of the discussion, to determine whether God actually promised we would always be healed. But I still see a remarkable lack of Scripture and a remarkable abundance of rhetoric and vagueness to try and counter my questions.

do we need to counter the word of God who promises answer to all who ask him "believing "?

If you read my posts you'd see that I was expecting a discussion as to the apparent contradiction between the passage in James that suggests "they will be healed" and the passage in 1 Timothy that makes it clear Timothy wasn't healed. I had hoped for a rational discussion looking to see how to resolve the apparent contradiction but it appears I'm not going to be getting one any time soon.

But anyways, I'll ask again, if you believe that God will always heal how do you explain the fact that people around us demonstrably aren't healed, or indeed the fact that not only was Timothy not healed but Paul told him to "take a little wine" rather than "present yourself to the elders for prayer". If God would always heal we might ask why Paul didn't think of that, no?

sounds like you are .

Care to elaborate?

in what context ,, ? if we test the lords word to see if he is faithful and true to it .. we will be healed -is he Not faithful and true to His word ?

You're back to restating the original premise as an answer to the question about the validity of the original premise.

If I say "the sky is green" and you ask me why I say that, and I respond by saying "because the sky is green" I haven't added anything of value to the discussion. Repeating the original premise doesn't work. If we will be healed we might also ask why those who preach their messages of sickness having no place on earth end up sick themselves. I wonder why the churches that preach this stuff don't put the medical industry out of business overnight by offering healing to anyone who needs it. I must admit given the choice between thousands of dollars in medical bills or medical insurance, or a $100 donation to a church that saw me healed overnight thanks to prayer, I know which one I'd take.

if we have simply read the words .. and then we beleive ..how is that faith "blind " ..is there another kind of faith your on about ?

Blind faith insofar as it reads words and ignores context. It's the kind of blind faith that reads Job 22:28 and believes on the back of that one verse we can speak things into being. Hint: God didn't speak the words in Job 22:28, and the person who did, Eliphaz the Temanite, had a few choice words from God in Job 42:7.

are you saying that if we read the words of the bible as inspired by the holy Spirit and believe them.. that we are being deceived in doing so .. but if we trust in mans words over Gods words we do well? ? ?

Not at all, I'm saying if we pluck verses out of context we can be deceived. I'm sure you remember that when the devil tempted Jesus he presented him with words from Scripture. The devil quoted Scripture word for word, he just took it out of context and misapplied it. We do the same when we pluck a verse or two out of context and try to stand on a promise that isn't there.

So I'll ask again, if you want to claim that healing is guaranteed how do you explain Timothy's situation?

the truth is the lord JEsus said .. what ever you ask in my name according to my will i will do it - so the questions is not ..is he wrong .. but where are we wrong if it seems we do not get what we ask for ? James says it is because we ask amiss .. he also says if we ask wavering in unbelief that we must not think we will receive anything .. and so we don't .

OK, so now we need to ask what it means to "ask in Jesus' name". If I ask for a Lamborghini Aventador and add "in Jesus name" before the Amen am I guaranteed to receive one? One might think so if we look at the promise at face value, but if we think about it more in terms of asking for the things Jesus would have asked for had he been standing in our place it seems more likely we won't receive the supercar. When the one man who had the right to demand the kings of the earth lie down in his path so he could walk on their backs chose instead to ride into Jerusalem on a donkey that wasn't even his own, if we are to be asking in his name it seems far more likely that a modest vehicle that does the job is what he would go for. In other words asking for the Lamborghini is "asking amiss" regardless of what fancy words we put in our prayer.

If it is not God's will to do something then if we ask for it "in Jesus' name" then if anything we are taking Jesus' name in vain. We are pretending to be asking on his behalf when actually we are doing nothing of the sort. If we ask for healing and do not receive it, perhaps it isn't God's will to heal in that particular situation.

 

[Alithis]

its called walking "in" the Spirit .. for we are IN him and he IN us .. his desires become our desires .
where does sickness come from ? it is a resulting effect of the curse of Sin . if sin is cleansed from us by the blood of the lamb .. then what right does sickness have in our body ..what right does a spirit of infirmity have to maintain its place in our life ? .. answers to these questions need to be sought from the lord who knows these things .the reason can differ in every situation . why do we not gain the victory in one situation yet gain it in another .. ?
israel displayed this when they went against an enemy one day and were victorious .. went against an enemy another time and failed dismally .. then sought the lord as to why .. and he revealed "sin" in the camp to be the cause .. they dealt with the sin .. then gained the victory...

-All these things are written for our instruction and admonishment . So we see that sin in our lives can plays an integral part in opposing the will of God and must be dealt with . what is overlooked all to often is the one sin which is profound in producing Null effect .. it is the sin of unbelief

the way i hear so many folks speak on this topic is from a stance of unbelief .. they reason from the carnal mind and its not the way to go .
they say between the lines .. people are not healed thus god does not heal . it is a stance founded solidly on the mind of the flesh not the mind of Christ .. for the mind of christ does not question if God cannot -that's unbelief .. but rather seeks to know his will as to why the father "does not" .

the carnal mind look at what he sees .. he sees the person unhealed , undelivered and ..reasons that god cannot .. the carnal mind wars against the Spirit .

the mind of Christ stands firmly in faith and remains unmoved by what is seen and is undaunted in moving on to seek out by prayer and fasting ..why that which is the will of God according to Gods own word (who cannot lie) is not transpiring according to his own word . faith does not throw its hands in the air and say "oh well ..thats that" . faith in God is found in LOve for God and trust in God and love never gives up ,never stops asking and never ceases to belief no matter what the eyes observe .

 

[tango]

its called walking "in" the Spirit .. for we are IN him and he IN us .. his desires become our desires .
where does sickness come from ? it is a resulting effect of the curse of Sin . if sin is cleansed from us by the blood of the lamb .. then what right does sickness have in our body ..what right does a spirit of infirmity have to maintain its place in our life ? .. answers to these questions need to be sought from the lord who knows these things .the reason can differ in every situation . why do we not gain the victory in one situation yet gain it in another .. ?

So where does death come from? Isn't that also a result of the curse of sin? Yet we die because God himself decreed that it would be so. The new heaven and the new earth are free from sickness, death, sorrow, pain, tears etc. Until we get there we get to deal with all those things. Why pluck sickness out of the mix in isolation and assume that one negative aspect of life on this earth will disappear?

I'm not sure how you equate a bacterial or viral infection with a spirit of infirmity, unless you want to claim that the microorganisms that we can see under a microscope are really demons.

If you want to say that because sin is cleansed from us we must be free from sickness then you must also require that we must be free from death because it is also an effect of the curse of sin. Yet we still die. This seems like just another example of picking something in isolation and focussing on it, even though the logical requirements of such an argument are demonstrably absurd.

israel displayed this when they went against an enemy one day and were victorious .. went against an enemy another time and failed dismally .. then sought the lord as to why .. and he revealed "sin" in the camp to be the cause .. they dealt with the sin .. then gained the victory...

If you're talking about the forbidden treasures kept after the fall of Jericho you're talking about God not going with them into battle, which has very little to do with the topic of sickness today.

-All these things are written for our instruction and admonishment . So we see that sin in our lives can plays an integral part in opposing the will of God and must be dealt with . what is overlooked all to often is the one sin which is profound in producing Null effect .. it is the sin of unbelief

Ah yes, that old chestnut surfaces again. Never mind the reasoning, just turn off my mind and have faith? Sorry, you need more than that.

the way i hear so many folks speak on this topic is from a stance of unbelief .. they reason from the carnal mind and its not the way to go .

Unbelief? Do you have any idea what I have seen in my life that doesn't leave that as an option for me?

they say between the lines .. people are not healed thus god does not heal . it is a stance founded solidly on the mind of the flesh not the mind of Christ .. for the mind of christ does not question if God cannot -that's unbelief .. but rather seeks to know his will as to why the father "does not" .

There's your problem right there. "People are not healed, therefore God does not heal" is just as wrong as saying "God always heals". The logical conclusion from seeing people not healed is that God does not always heal. If one person is healed we can conclude that "God sometimes heals". If one person is not healed we can conclude "God does not always heal". In both cases a single counterexample disproves the equally false conclusions relating to "God never..." and "God always..."

the carnal mind look at what he sees .. he sees the person unhealed , undelivered and ..reasons that god cannot .. the carnal mind wars against the Spirit .

the mind of Christ stands firmly in faith and remains unmoved by what is seen and is undaunted in moving on to seek out by prayer and fasting ..why that which is the will of God according to Gods own word (who cannot lie) is not transpiring according to his own word . faith does not throw its hands in the air and say "oh well ..thats that" . faith in God is found in LOve for God and trust in God and love never gives up ,never stops asking and never ceases to belief no matter what the eyes observe .

We can keep asking all we want but nothing you've said here says anything about whether God will always heal or not. If something align with God's will then we may see a miracle right there and then. If God's will is "yes, but not yet" we may see a miracle later (or someone else may see it). If God's will is "No, never" then we won't see the miracle however many times we ask for it.

 

[Alithis]

ok you missed the point of over dissecting posts -i did it tongue in cheek ..
-end

 

[tango]

ok you missed the point of over dissecting posts -i did it tongue in cheek ..
-end

So can you answer the questions? Or are you just going to go back to saying "have faith" without giving any indication as to why we should have faith in a promise that may or may not even be valid?

 

[Alithis]

So can you answer the questions? Or are you just going to go back to saying "have faith" without giving any indication as to why we should have faith in a promise that may or may not even be valid?

you do realize you are implying the word of God is invalid?

asking a question which cause uncertainty and doubt to be stirred up in the heart of the hearer is first observed in the book of Genesis by a certain being speaking to Eve .it is unedifying to the hearer.

Absolutely we should have Faith in ALL God has said -especially when it makes no sense to the flesh to do so .

 

[tango]

you do realize you are implying the word of God is invalid?

Not at all, I'm stating outright that one particular interpretation of the word of God is invalid. But nice try at a diversion.

asking a question which cause uncertainty and doubt to be stirred up in the heart of the hearer is first observed in the book of Genesis by a certain being speaking to Eve .it is unedifying to the hearer.

So how do we follow the Scriptural call to "test all things" and "test the spirits" without considering the possibility that something might be wrong? And we cannot consider the possibility that something is wrong with creating some form of doubt.

Absolutely we should have Faith in ALL God has said -especially when it makes no sense to the flesh to do so .

Of course, which is why we need to know just what it is that God has actually said rather than standing in faith on promises that were never made.

 

[Alithis]

Not at all, I'm stating outright that one particular interpretation of the word of God is invalid. But nice try at a diversion.



So how do we follow the Scriptural call to "test all things" and "test the spirits" without considering the possibility that something might be wrong? And we cannot consider the possibility that something is wrong with creating some form of doubt.



Of course, which is why we need to know just what it is that God has actually said rather than standing in faith on promises that were never made.

faith is not reliant on intellectual interpretation of the carnal understanding .. it is a matter of trust - ie trust in the LORD with ALL your HEART (not mind) and lean NOT on your OWN understanding . when you imply imply Gods promises are not always to those that believe -your (albeit perhaps unwittingly) implying Gods word cant be trusted without carnal understanding .. the one thing we are told to NOT lean upon . to lean upon the understandings of the carnal mind will lead to self justifications of unbelief -every time .

God answers prayers which are pryed according to HIs will in His name (one means the other) there are only two kinds of believing prayers -those which have been answered and those which we have not yet observed the manifestation of the answer .

one person seeks knocks and asks ..and does so patiently persistently and does not give place to sin (unbelief) no matter what . and the door is opened .
the other sort of seeks a bit .. knocks at the door expecting no one to be home and asks not expecting to be answered ..then goes their way to seek other things .. come back occasionally and does it again .. unstable in faith wavering in the imaginations of the heart unstable in all their ways .. "let not that man think he shall receive anything of the lord "

i don't understand things about healing but i clearly observe in the scriptures that promises are not obtained due to ONE major factor .. "unbelief "

your not testing the spirits ..that is quite a different topic your advocating doubting the word of God . that needs some serious rethinking.
the lord jesus said to those who believe in him and follow him ,proving they do by their obedience to him in love .."ask what so ever you will in my name and I will do it " -in no way or form is this promise ambiguous or limited or in need of some doubting interpretation . his word is faithful and true and he is faithful to it .

 

[tango]

faith is not reliant on intellectual interpretation of the carnal understanding .. it is a matter of trust - ie trust in the LORD with ALL your HEART (not mind) and lean NOT on your OWN understanding . when you imply imply Gods promises are not always to those that believe -your (albeit perhaps unwittingly) implying Gods word cant be trusted without carnal understanding .. the one thing we are told to NOT lean upon . to lean upon the understandings of the carnal mind will lead to self justifications of unbelief -every time .

And you're still apparently not seeing the point I'm making which is that unless God actually made a promise no amount of faith will make that promise come to fruition.

God didn't promise me a gleaming new Lamborghini so it doesn't matter how much faith I have that he really did make such a promise, I'm not going to be getting one any time soon.

I'll ask the simple question, can you make your case without merely trying to undermine my case with vague references to carnal reasoning? If not, I'd put it to you that you don't actually have a case at all. If all you can come up with is rejection of carnal reasoning then you must accept anything anyone says, no matter how bizarre or absurd, because to reject it would require use of the carnal reasoning you clearly dislike so much. In which case, did I ever tell you about my wide range of super powers?

God answers prayers which are pryed according to HIs will in His name (one means the other) there are only two kinds of believing prayers -those which have been answered and those which we have not yet observed the manifestation of the answer .

You forgot the third kind, which is when we are believing the wrong thing. Like, for example, believing (however fervently) that God promised me a Lamborghini. The third category of "believing prayer" would be just such a thing, where we may have the best of intentions but we are standing on a promise God never made and as such his answer is going to be "no".

one person seeks knocks and asks ..and does so patiently persistently and does not give place to sin (unbelief) no matter what . and the door is opened .

the other sort of seeks a bit .. knocks at the door expecting no one to be home and asks not expecting to be answered ..then goes their way to seek other things .. come back occasionally and does it again .. unstable in faith wavering in the imaginations of the heart unstable in all their ways .. "let not that man think he shall receive anything of the lord "

... while another still is knocking on the wrong door, or knocking on the side of a tree thinking it is a door, or otherwise missing the point.

i don't understand things about healing but i clearly observe in the scriptures that promises are not obtained due to ONE major factor .. "unbelief "

Sure, that's entirely right. If God promised something then God will deliver on his promise sooner or later. We just need to be sure God actually promised it in the first place. I can't go claiming God broke his promise to provide me a gleaming new Lamborghini because he never made the promise in the first place. The error there would be mine in standing on a promise God never made, rather than anywhere else.

your not testing the spirits ..that is quite a different topic your advocating doubting the word of God . that needs some serious rethinking.

I'm not advocating any such thing. I'm advocating rightly dividing the word. There's a huge difference.

the lord jesus said to those who believe in him and follow him ,proving they do by their obedience to him in love .."ask what so ever you will in my name and I will do it " -in no way or form is this promise ambiguous or limited or in need of some doubting interpretation . his word is faithful and true and he is faithful to it .

So you need to define what it means to ask "in Jesus' name". Hint: it means more than putting "In Jesus Name" before the "Amen".

 

[tango]

Since the point may have been lost among all the endless toings-and-froings, here's a simple question. Are you going to discuss Scripture and its context, or merely stick your fingers in your ears and shout "carnal reasoning, la la la" whenever anyone disagrees with you? It's a serious question, I'm waiting for a discussion of Scripture and its context rather than constantly being told I'm using carnal reasoning.

If all you can do is cry "carnal reasoning", do you have a case to make at all? Otherwise you cry "carnal reasoning" to counter a cry of "misplaced faith" and the discussion goes nowhere.

 

[psalms 91]

Do you believe Isiah 53? Do you believe Mark 16? Do you believe James when he says the prayer of faith will heal? Do you believe Acts? If so then you should believe in healing

 

[Alithis]

And you're still apparently not seeing the point I'm making which is that unless God actually made a promise no amount of faith will make that promise come to fruition.

God didn't promise me a gleaming new Lamborghini so it doesn't matter how much faith I have that he really did make such a promise, I'm not going to be getting one any time soon.

I'll ask the simple question, can you make your case without merely trying to undermine my case with vague references to carnal reasoning? If not, I'd put it to you that you don't actually have a case at all. If all you can come up with is rejection of carnal reasoning then you must accept anything anyone says, no matter how bizarre or absurd, because to reject it would require use of the carnal reasoning you clearly dislike so much. In which case, did I ever tell you about my wide range of super powers?



You forgot the third kind, which is when we are believing the wrong thing. Like, for example, believing (however fervently) that God promised me a Lamborghini. The third category of "believing prayer" would be just such a thing, where we may have the best of intentions but we are standing on a promise God never made and as such his answer is going to be "no".



... while another still is knocking on the wrong door, or knocking on the side of a tree thinking it is a door, or otherwise missing the point.



Sure, that's entirely right. If God promised something then God will deliver on his promise sooner or later. We just need to be sure God actually promised it in the first place. I can't go claiming God broke his promise to provide me a gleaming new Lamborghini because he never made the promise in the first place. The error there would be mine in standing on a promise God never made, rather than anywhere else.



I'm not advocating any such thing. I'm advocating rightly dividing the word. There's a huge difference.



So you need to define what it means to ask "in Jesus' name". Hint: it means more than putting "In Jesus Name" before the "Amen".

your over dissecting posts again .so i will simplify it .

but which part of "what so ever you ask in my name according to my will i will do it .. ' --is ambiguous and not a promise and in need of dividing ?

rightly dividing the word of god also means not chopping it up into ambiguous pieces so it loses all meaning and purpose and no longer edifies the hearer .

 

[Alithis]

Since the point may have been lost among all the endless toings-and-froings, here's a simple question. Are you going to discuss Scripture and its context, or merely stick your fingers in your ears and shout "carnal reasoning, la la la" whenever anyone disagrees with you? It's a serious question, I'm waiting for a discussion of Scripture and its context rather than constantly being told I'm using carnal reasoning.

If all you can do is cry "carnal reasoning", do you have a case to make at all? Otherwise you cry "carnal reasoning" to counter a cry of "misplaced faith" and the discussion goes nowhere.

im not the one disagreeing with the plain simple word of God .. "you know ...the one that says "except you become as little children"

 

[tango]

your over dissecting posts again .so i will simplify it .

I see, so it's all my fault? Nice reasoning tactic.

but which part of "what so ever you ask in my name according to my will i will do it .. ' --is ambiguous and not a promise and in need of dividing ?

The meaning of "ask in my name". Do you believe "ask in my name" is as simple as asking for whatever we want, whatever our motives, and merely tagging "in Jesus name" before the amen? If so I wonder why he hasn't honored my request for a new Lamborghini. I saw one in the dealership that looked pretty cool. Maybe there's more to it than that.

rightly dividing the word of god also means not chopping it up into ambiguous pieces so it loses all meaning and purpose and no longer edifies the hearer .

... which is pretty much what I've been trying to say all along. It's about understanding Scripture as a whole, so if you want to insist that healing is guaranteed you need to explain why Timothy, among others, were not healed and are not healed.

 

[tango]

im not the one disagreeing with the plain simple word of God .. "you know ...the one that says "except you become as little children"

Neither am I, I'm merely disagreeing with your interpretation of the word of God. But again, another logical fallacy, another strawman, and precious little actual substance to support a cause.

Given the ongoing tactic of obfuscation I'm seriously wondering whether your position actually has any substance to it at all, beyond a promise that either God is routinely breaking or God never made in the first place.

 

[Alithis]

Neither am I, I'm merely disagreeing with your interpretation of the word of God. But again, another logical fallacy, another strawman, and precious little actual substance to support a cause.

Given the ongoing tactic of obfuscation I'm seriously wondering whether your position actually has any substance to it at all, beyond a promise that either God is routinely breaking or God never made in the first place.

i didn't give you an interpretation.. I gave just the word of God .. which i believe-as is .

 

[tango]

i didn't give you an interpretation.. I gave just the word of God .. which i believe-as is .

So you're still not going to address the question of why Timothy wasn't healed? Did the promise you've pulled out of Scripture apply to everybody who lived since Christ died, except poor Timothy?

If you were standing on the word of God as a whole we wouldn't still be going back and forth. But since you're consistently refusing to address why Timothy wasn't healed I'm not sure what to make of the point you are trying to present. It does seem to be one of those "it always works, without condition and under any circumstance, er, except this one. And maybe some others" kind of situations.

It's well and good saying you're giving the word of God. Does 1Ti 5:23 still count as the word of God any more? If not, when did it get dropped? If so, I'm also giving the word of God where it makes it pretty clear Timothy wasn't healed.

 

[Alithis]

So you're still not going to address the question of why Timothy wasn't healed? Did the promise you've pulled out of Scripture apply to everybody who lived since Christ died, except poor Timothy?

If you were standing on the word of God as a whole we wouldn't still be going back and forth. But since you're consistently refusing to address why Timothy wasn't healed I'm not sure what to make of the point you are trying to present. It does seem to be one of those "it always works, without condition and under any circumstance, er, except this one. And maybe some others" kind of situations.

It's well and good saying you're giving the word of God. Does 1Ti 5:23 still count as the word of God any more? If not, when did it get dropped? If so, I'm also giving the word of God where it makes it pretty clear Timothy wasn't healed.

oh noo not the old .. god doesn't always heal because timothy wasn't line again.. lets just ignore every account of every healing in the bible and sow doubt into everyone because it says tim was sick.. -did he die? nope .. so i guess he recovered (just as it says in james ).
Im not trying to make any point ..im simply agreeing with the lord jesus ..because he is the truth (absolute ) and im not agreeing with him based on my comprehension but simply because he said it and he is truth . shall i cease from believing because some come along and says .."ouhh but timothy wasn't healed ".. well NO! i will not nor will i encourage any one in any thing but to learn, develop and grow into absolute FAith with childlike simplicity and obedience that they may be built up (edified) i the most Holy Faith .
Everything the lord sees us go through he uses to further develop his character in us .. therefore we give thanks in all things and realize that sometimes delayed healing of the body works healing correction of the soul and uncovers the sincerity of a person's faith .
but never will i preach anything that even remotely implies that "God cannot" .. as more often it is us that "will not believe" .

 

[psalms 91]

oh noo not the old .. god doesn't always heal because timothy wasn't line again.. lets just ignore every account of every healing in the bible and sow doubt into everyone because it says tim was sick.. -did he die? nope .. so i guess he recovered (just as it says in james ).
Im not trying to make any point ..im simply agreeing with the lord jesus ..because he is the truth (absolute ) and im not agreeing with him based on my comprehension but simply because he said it and he is truth . shall i cease from believing because some come along and says .."ouhh but timothy wasn't healed ".. well NO! i will not nor will i encourage any one in any thing but to learn, develop and grow into absolute FAith with childlike simplicity and obedience that they may be built up (edified) i the most Holy Faith .
Everything the lord sees us go through he uses to further develop his character in us .. therefore we give thanks in all things and realize that sometimes delayed healing of the body works healing correction of the soul and uncovers the sincerity of a person's faith .
but never will i preach anything that even remotely implies that "God cannot" .. as more often it is us that "will not believe" .

Exactly, but you are wasting your time me thinks.

 

[visionary]

Wonderful lady of faith sick and set up for surgery, calls the pastor and elders to come anoint her with oil. They were not into this at all, having no faith that it would work, but they did it to appease her. Surgeon stated after re-examination tests before surgery that there was no signs of the tumor. It was the faith of this lady not the pastors or elders.