Theology thread.

[MennoSota]

I am curious, where does the bible say that the Spirit speaks through scripture?

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16]All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.
[17]God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

 

[MoreCoffee]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16]All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.
[17]God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

You can see I hope that the Spirit is not mentioned in that passage nor is the idea of "speaking through scripture". The passages teaches that holy scripture is produced by God for the benefit of his people.

 

[Albion]

That is true and it is also true that every group will use their denomination's interpretive traditions to arrive at their theological position.

There's no doubt some truth in that because, after all, they hear sermon after sermon giving that particular interpretation. But I think it's also the case that a lot of people join a church precisely because they have come to the conclusion, for one reason or another, that that denomination's interpretation of things is correct. People who are convinced that homosexuality is a great moral wrong, for example, quite often choose not to continue as a member of and contributor to a denomination that says such a view is incorrect.

That happens with submersion baptism and credo baptism versus pouring water and paedo-baptism. It happens with the real presence. It happens with Justification. It happens with Once saved always saved. It happens with synergy versus monergy (both terms are not used by the people alleged to support it but monergy is apparantly more accepted in some Calvinist circles than synergy is among those who are alleged to teach it). Almost every disputed doctrine is disputed by varying interpretations of holy scripture and sometimes the very definition of canonical holy scripture plays a role in what each group will argue.

 

[Albion]

Your example is one where the church of Rome practices eisegesis rather than exegesis when looking at a text. In such a case Rome is acting no differently than any Muslim who goes searching for Muhammad in the Bible and then finds him in a verse that has been torn from its context.

I hate to say it, but these continual comparisons between Christians you disagree with and Moslems is not helpful. There really is no comparison. It's a forced comparison that's based upon faulty guesswork. Prayer beads are not used in the same way and don't have the same meaning in the two faiths. The Bible isn't understood in the same way at all. And that's just for starters.

 

[MennoSota]

You can see I hope that the Spirit is not mentioned in that passage nor is the idea of "speaking through scripture". The passages teaches that holy scripture is produced by God for the benefit of his people.

Inspired by God
Useful to teach what is true
Show what is wrong
Correct us
Teach us
Prepare and equip us

Is God not Spirit?

Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

 

[MennoSota]

I hate to say it, but these continual comparisons between Christians you disagree with and Moslems is not helpful. There really is no comparison. It's a forced comparison that's based upon faulty guesswork. Prayer beads are not used in the same way and don't have the same meaning in the two faiths. The Bible isn't understood in the same way at all. And that's just for starters.

The method of eisegesis is comparable. If we reject the interpretation by Muslims, claiming Muhammad is in the Bible, then we can also reject the interpretation of Rome claiming Mary was a perpetual virgin. The methodology of both is equally flawed and leads to bizarre interpretations that the context cannot support. Nabeel Qureshi does an excellent job of presenting this case in his book, Seeking Allah Finding Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Show me a pure deacon or Bishop per the command, and I will agree with their station appointed by man.

I am aware of the verses. That is why I said to show me a pure deacon or Bishop.

Where did "pure" come from in your question? There's no presumption in any such church that clergy must be pure and no Bible verses say such a thing. In fact, no one is. If that were a requirement, there wouldn't be any Baptist pastors, either.

You speak of what; maybe 3 verses in the entire Bible that speak of the hierarchy you mention?

How many verses speak of equality, the highest serving the lowest, or the fact that there is but one Spirit and one gospel?

Not when it comes to church deacons, elders, bishops, etc.

 

[Albion]

The method of eisegesis is comparable. If we reject the interpretation by Muslims, claiming Muhammad is in the Bible, then we can also reject the interpretation of Rome claiming Mary was a perpetual virgin.

Not in the least. The Moslem uses that argument in order to fool Christians; they certainly do not consider it to be the revealed word of God in the way that Christians see the Bible. And as for Mary's perpetual virginity--or lack of same--that's based upon Sacred Tradition, to which I referred in my previous post.

 

[MennoSota]

Not in the least. The Moslem uses that argument in order to fool Christians; they certainly do not consider it to be the revealed word of God in the way that Christians see the Bible. And as for Mary's perpetual virginity--or lack of same--that's based upon Sacred Tradition, to which I referred in my previous post.

There is no "sacred" tradition. That argument is the same used by the Pharisees and Saducees to force their politics upon the people of Israel.
The Roman Church manufactures a "sacred" tradition in the very same fashion that Muslims manufacture Muhammad in the Bible. It is the same technique used by both. It is horrendously faulty and ultimately very controlling.

A comparison of Islam and Rome is in order as they have many parallels in how they conduct their affairs within their systems.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Where did "pure" come from in your question? There's no presumption in any such church that clergy must be pure and no Bible verses say such a thing. In fact, no one is. If that were a requirement, there wouldn't be any Baptist pastors, either.




Not when it comes to church deacons, elders, bishops, etc.

So it is your contention that the congregation of the faithful are purified while the elders, bishops, deacons, pastors and so forth are to be corrupt?

Why mention Baptist pastors as if I excused them or something.

One cannot be simultaneously made new and too in the semblance of the old natural man.

Look up the word pure in scripture and study the passages surrounding it; then conclude.

 

[Albion]

So it is your contention that the congregation of the faithful are purified while the elders, bishops, deacons, pastors and so forth are to be corrupt?

Nope. I contend that we are all sinners, even those of us who have been born again. We are forgiven, and we certainly are motivated to do what is right, but we remain fallible creatures and do sin. The notion that either the congregants or the clergy are sinless and pure is a view held by some Christian denominations, I know, but that is very much a minority opinion.

Why mention Baptist pastors as if I excused them or something.

I needed an example of a denomination that doesn't have bishops. I have no idea what your own denominational affiliation, if any, might be, since you have chosen not to disclose it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Inspired by God
Useful to teach what is true
Show what is wrong
Correct us
Teach us
Prepare and equip us

Is God not Spirit?

Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

Yes the Holy Spirit is God. You said that the Holy Spirit speaks through scripture. I asked you where the holy scriptures say that. So far you haven't posted a passage where that is taught.

The passage from Hebrews doesn't read as you quoted it in any of the bibles I checked. What the passage says is

Hebrews 4:12-13 Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.
​

 

[MennoSota]

Yes the Holy Spirit is God. You said that the Holy Spirit speaks through scripture. I asked you where the holy scriptures say that. So far you haven't posted a passage where that is taught.

The passage from Hebrews doesn't read as you quoted it in any of the bibles I checked. What the passage says is

Hebrews 4:12-13 Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.
​

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes the Holy Spirit is God. You said that the Holy Spirit speaks through scripture. I asked you where the holy scriptures say that. So far you haven't posted a passage where that is taught.

The passage from Hebrews doesn't read as you quoted it in any of the bibles I checked. What the passage says is

Hebrews 4:12-13 Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.
​

Interesting response. Maybe it is "holy laughter" and maybe it is not holy but it is laughter.

 

[MennoSota]

Interesting response. Maybe it is "holy laughter" and maybe it is not holy but it is laughter.

Maybe it's me finding your argument silly.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes the Holy Spirit is God. You said that the Holy Spirit speaks through scripture. I asked you where the holy scriptures say that. So far you haven't posted a passage where that is taught.

The passage from Hebrews doesn't read as you quoted it in any of the bibles I checked. What the passage says is

Hebrews 4:12-13 Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.
​

Maybe it's me finding your argument silly.

Okay, you think it is silly. That's fine with me.

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

:dog:

 

[popsthebuilder]

Maybe it's me finding your argument silly.

Do you think the Holy Spirit only communicates, guides, comforts, and chastens through scripture alone?

If so could you please provide the scripture to show such?

I thought that was what we were doing.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Nope. I contend that we are all sinners, even those of us who have been born again. We are forgiven, and we certainly are motivated to do what is right, but we remain fallible creatures and do sin. The notion that either the congregants or the clergy are sinless and pure is a view held by some Christian denominations, I know, but that is very much a minority opinion.

I needed an example of a denomination that doesn't have bishops. I have no idea what your own denominational affiliation, if any, might be, since you have chosen not to disclose it.

So you believe faith to be ineffectual or that we can have two masters, or we aren't made righteous through believe in Christ?

Are you a faith alone believer?

 

[MennoSota]

Do you think the Holy Spirit only communicates, guides, comforts, and chastens through scripture alone?

If so could you please provide the scripture to show such?

I thought that was what we were doing.

No.

The Spirit is Sovereign and can do as it wills. What is revealed to us by special revelation is found in the Bible. The Bible, therefore, is the standard means of measurement to discern if the Holy Spirit is communicating or if an unholy spirit is counterfeiting.