Theology thread.

popsthebuilder

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Do you disagree with the hierarchy (it is only three levels deep deacon-priest-bishop with the bishop of Rome having universal jurisdiction) because your tradition does not have one or is there another reason that persuaded you to disagree?
Show me a pure deacon or Bishop per the command, and I will agree with their station appointed by man.

I thought I had made it clear why.

You speak of what; maybe 3 verses in the entire Bible that speak of the hierarchy you mention?

How many verses speak of equality, the highest serving the lowest, or the fact that there is but one Spirit and one gospel?
I also take the verse that says to call none rabbi very seriously.

I think we may have gone over this before.

I don't mind going into detail with you, and actually look forward to it.

I will attempt to keep our discussion civil, peaceable, and potentially profitable. I'm sure you will do the same.

Lastly; there is no tradition for me to speak of regarding my faith.

If you read my testimony you would understand what I mean.

I can pm it if you like.....


peace
 

MoreCoffee

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Show me a pure deacon or Bishop per the command, and I will agree with their station appointed by man.

I thought I had made it clear why.

You speak of what; maybe 3 verses in the entire Bible that speak of the hierarchy you mention?

How many verses speak of equality, the highest serving the lowest, or the fact that there is but one Spirit and one gospel?
I also take the verse that says to call none rabbi very seriously.

I think we may have gone over this before.

I don't mind going into detail with you, and actually look forward to it.

I will attempt to keep our discussion civil, peaceable, and potentially profitable. I'm sure you will do the same.

Lastly; there is no tradition for me to speak of regarding my faith.

If you read my testimony you would understand what I mean.

I can pm it if you like.....


peace

Deacons come from Acts chapter six, priests (elders) from Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus and bishops come from Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus as well as from church practise in the first and subsequent centuries.
Deacons
Acts 6:1-7 In those days, as the number of disciples was increasing, there occurred a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, because their widows were treated with disdain in the daily ministration. 2 And so the twelve, calling together the multitude of the disciples, said: "It is not fair for us to leave behind the Word of God to serve at tables also. 3 Therefore, brothers, search among yourselves for seven men of good testimony, filled with the Holy Spirit and with wisdom, whom we may appoint over this work. 4 Yet truly, we will be continually in prayer and in the ministry of the Word." 5 And the plan pleased the entire multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and with the Holy Spirit, and Philip and Prochorus and Nicanor and Timon and Parmenas and Nicolas, a new arrival from Antioch. 6 These they set before the sight of the Apostles, and while praying, they imposed hands on them. 7 And the Word of the Lord was increasing, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem was multiplied exceedingly. And even a large group of the priests were obedient to the faith.

1 Timothy 3:8-13 Similarly, deacons must be chaste, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not pursuing tainted profit, 9 holding to the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 And these things should be proven first, and then they may minister, being without offense. 11 Similarly, the women must be chaste, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons should be the husband of one wife, men who lead their own children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have ministered well will acquire for themselves a good position, and much confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Priests/Elders
Titus 1:5-16 I left you behind in Crete for this reason, that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: 6 someone who is blameless, married only once, whose children are believers, not accused of debauchery and not rebellious. 7 For a bishop, as God's steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or addicted to wine or violent or greedy for gain; 8 but he must be hospitable, a lover of goodness, prudent, upright, devout, and self-controlled. 9 He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it. 10 There are also many rebellious people, idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision; 11 they must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for sordid gain what it is not right to teach. 12 It was one of them, their very own prophet, who said, 'Cretans are always liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons.' 13 That testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply, so that they may become sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths or to commandments of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure. Their very minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Bishops
1 Timothy 3:1-7 The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. 2 Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way-- 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace and the snare of the devil.​
Clearly there is overlap between the office of elder/priest and the office of bishop because every bishop is also an elder/priest. But the three offices are present in holy scripture and as the Church fathers wrote their letters in the later part of the first century and after they made it abundantly clear that the apostles left behind bishops to pastor the Church priests to help them in their work and deacons to see to the day to day care for the poor and other tasks in the church. Of course volunteers would assist the people in all three of the offices so church work was in the hands of the whole congregation not only in the hands of the office bearers yet the office bearers were the men chosen to lead and govern.
 
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popsthebuilder

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Deacons come from Acts chapter seven, priests (elders) from Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus and bishops come from Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus as well as from church practise in the first and subsequent centuries.
Deacons
Acts 6:1-7 In those days, as the number of disciples was increasing, there occurred a murmuring of the Greeks against the Hebrews, because their widows were treated with disdain in the daily ministration. 2 And so the twelve, calling together the multitude of the disciples, said: "It is not fair for us to leave behind the Word of God to serve at tables also. 3 Therefore, brothers, search among yourselves for seven men of good testimony, filled with the Holy Spirit and with wisdom, whom we may appoint over this work. 4 Yet truly, we will be continually in prayer and in the ministry of the Word." 5 And the plan pleased the entire multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and with the Holy Spirit, and Philip and Prochorus and Nicanor and Timon and Parmenas and Nicolas, a new arrival from Antioch. 6 These they set before the sight of the Apostles, and while praying, they imposed hands on them. 7 And the Word of the Lord was increasing, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem was multiplied exceedingly. And even a large group of the priests were obedient to the faith.

1 Timothy 3:8-13 Similarly, deacons must be chaste, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not pursuing tainted profit, 9 holding to the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 And these things should be proven first, and then they may minister, being without offense. 11 Similarly, the women must be chaste, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons should be the husband of one wife, men who lead their own children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have ministered well will acquire for themselves a good position, and much confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Priests/Elders
Titus 1:5-16 I left you behind in Crete for this reason, that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: 6 someone who is blameless, married only once, whose children are believers, not accused of debauchery and not rebellious. 7 For a bishop, as God's steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or addicted to wine or violent or greedy for gain; 8 but he must be hospitable, a lover of goodness, prudent, upright, devout, and self-controlled. 9 He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it. 10 There are also many rebellious people, idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision; 11 they must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for sordid gain what it is not right to teach. 12 It was one of them, their very own prophet, who said, 'Cretans are always liars, vicious brutes, lazy gluttons.' 13 That testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply, so that they may become sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths or to commandments of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure. Their very minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Bishops
1 Timothy 3:1-7 The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. 2 Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way-- 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace and the snare of the devil.​
Clearly there is overlap between the office of elder/priest and the office of bishop because every bishop is also an elder/priest. But the three offices are present in holy scripture and as the Church fathers wrote their letters in the later part of the first century and after they made it abundantly clear that the apostles left behind bishops to pastor the Church priests to help them in their work and deacons to see to the day to day care for the poor and other tasks in the church. Of course volunteers would assist the people in all three of the offices so church work was in the hands of the whole congregation not only in the hands of the office bearers yet the office bearers were the men chosen to lead and govern.
I am aware of the verses. That is why I said to show me a pure deacon or Bishop.
 

MoreCoffee

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I am aware of the verses. That is why I said to show me a pure deacon or Bishop.

They are there. There is overlap between elder and bishop. But all three are there in the scriptures.
 

popsthebuilder

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They are there. There is overlap between elder and bishop. But all three are there in the scriptures.
Two points

One being the misdirection of all men and it's equating no man as pure as the scripture says one is who is in the offices you speak.

My other point being that though there are those appointed to spread the Word, they would, by default, count themselbes as lowly and humble, not being placed over man for the sight of men.
 

MoreCoffee

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Two points

One being the misdirection of all men and it's equating no man as pure as the scripture says one is who is in the offices you speak.

My other point being that though there are those appointed to spread the Word, they would, by default, count themselbes as lowly and humble, not being placed over man for the sight of men.

The offices are for governing the church which is what Peter says in his letters and Jesus taught the apostles too.
Elders
1 Peter 5:1-11 Now as an elder myself and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as one who shares in the glory to be revealed, I exhort the elders among you 2 to tend the flock of God that is in your charge, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion but willingly, as God would have you do it--not for sordid gain but eagerly. 3 Do not lord it over those in your charge, but be examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief shepherd appears, you will win the crown of glory that never fades away. 5 In the same way, you who are younger must accept the authority of the elders. And all of you must clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you. 8 Discipline yourselves; keep alert. Like a roaring lion your adversary the devil prowls around, looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in your faith, for you know that your brothers and sisters throughout the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering. 10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, support, strengthen, and establish you. 11 To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.
 

popsthebuilder

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The offices are for governing the church which is what Peter says in his letters and Jesus taught the apostles too.
Elders
1 Peter 5:1-11 Now as an elder myself and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as one who shares in the glory to be revealed, I exhort the elders among you 2 to tend the flock of God that is in your charge, exercising the oversight, not under compulsion but willingly, as God would have you do it--not for sordid gain but eagerly. 3 Do not lord it over those in your charge, but be examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief shepherd appears, you will win the crown of glory that never fades away. 5 In the same way, you who are younger must accept the authority of the elders. And all of you must clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you. 8 Discipline yourselves; keep alert. Like a roaring lion your adversary the devil prowls around, looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in your faith, for you know that your brothers and sisters throughout the world are undergoing the same kinds of suffering. 10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, support, strengthen, and establish you. 11 To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.
Now read what you posted, then tell me if you see not within those passages that all are equal and the elder is to serve those in need with all humility, not for gain, or placement, but because it is their earnest desire due to the Spirit that abides in them and in which they wish solemnly to abide in.
 

MoreCoffee

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Now read what you posted, then tell me if you see not within those passages that all are equal and the elder is to serve those in need with all humility, not for gain, or placement, but because it is their earnest desire due to the Spirit that abides in them and in which they wish solemnly to abide in.

I see Peter an Apostles of Jesus Christ saying that he too is an elder yet he was also an Apostle and not all elders were also Apostles chosen by Jesus Christ yet Peter was so I see a distinction in offices and one person holding both.
 

popsthebuilder

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I see Peter an Apostles of Jesus Christ saying that he too is an elder yet he was also an Apostle and not all elders were also Apostles chosen by Jesus Christ yet Peter was so I see a distinction in offices and one person holding both.
Could you address my posts please?

I do not see St. Peter placing himself over any.
 

MoreCoffee

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Could you address my posts please?

I do not see St. Peter placing himself over any.

Peter says that elders are "to tend the flock of God that is in your charge" which is a matter of ruling but not of being superior to anybody. Elders rule and serve. That is the point in all the scriptures I quoted. Church office is service within the body of Christ. Ruling is a service. And I did answer your post. But I reserve the right to frame my responses as I see fit rather than framing them as you might like.
 

popsthebuilder

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Peter says that elders are "to tend the flock of God that is in your charge" which is a matter of ruling but not of being superior to anybody. Elders rule and serve. That is the point in all the scriptures I quoted. Church office is service within the body of Christ. Ruling is a service. And I did answer your post. But I reserve the right to frame my responses as I see fit rather than framing them as you might like.
Rule and tend aren't synonyms.

To nourish is not to rule over, in fact; it specifically says to not lord it over them.

Mercy and giving
 

MoreCoffee

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Rule and tend aren't synonyms.

To nourish is not to rule over, in fact; it specifically says to not lord it over them.

Mercy and giving

ruling over is the worldly way, ruling by service is the Christian way. Ruling over is demanding others perform tasks as directed. Ruling by service is inviting people to bring their gifts to the common good and use them to benefit all in the places where they are most needed and most useful. Those who rule by service help others to use their gifts in the right places and right ways.
 

Albion

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Show what you are referring to.
I think you know what I'm referring to. Take almost any hot button doctrinal dispute we have here online and Bible verses are going to be quoted or at least referred to. The problem then becomes one of interpretation. For example, a Roman Catholic will say that Matthew 16:18 means that Jesus established the Papacy and made Peter the first Pope. But then a member of one or another of the thousands of other churches, whether Catholic or Protestant, will point out why that verse doesn't say that at all--usually by giving a different interpretation of the verse. It is NOT the case, then, that either side is arguing without regard to Scripture.

That's most often what happens. I do note that there are several exceptions, however, but they are exceptions. One, there are occasions in which Roman Catholics will not care what the Scriptures say; they base their conclusions on alleged traditions, consider them to have been guided by the Holy Ghost, and usually will say so. The other is from folks at the other end of the Christian spectrum who will in similar fashion sidestep Scripture and insist that 'a word of knowledge' or "God spoke to my heart" or some other sort of direct revelation is better than anything else and is what directs their thinking.
 

MoreCoffee

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I think you know what I'm referring to. Take almost any hot button doctrinal dispute we have here online and Bible verses are going to be quoted or at least referred to. The problem then becomes one of interpretation. For example, a Roman Catholic will say that Matthew 16:18 means that Jesus established the Papacy and made Peter the first Pope. But then a member of one or another of the thousands of other churches, whether Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or Protestant, will point out why that verse doesn't say that at all--usually by giving a different interpretation of the verse. It is NOT the case, then, that either side is arguing without regard to Scripture.

That's most often what happens. I do note that there are several exceptions, however, but they are exceptions. One, there are occasions in which Roman Catholics will not care what the Scriptures say; they base their conclusions on alleged traditions, consider them to have been guided by the Holy Ghost, and usually will say so. The other is from folks at the other end of the Christian spectrum who will in similar fashion sidestep Scripture and insist that 'a word of knowledge' or "God spoke to my heart" or some other sort of direct revelation is better than anything else and is what directs their thinking.

That is true and it is also true that every group will use their denomination's interpretive traditions to arrive at their theological position. That happens with submersion baptism and credo baptism versus pouring water and paedo-baptism. It happens with the real presence. It happens with Justification. It happens with Once saved always saved. It happens with synergy versus monergy (both terms are not used by the people alleged to support it but monergy is apparantly more accepted in some Calvinist circles than synergy is among those who are alleged to teach it). Almost every disputed doctrine is disputed by varying interpretations of holy scripture and sometimes the very definition of canonical holy scripture plays a role in what each group will argue.
 

popsthebuilder

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I think you know what I'm referring to. Take almost any hot button doctrinal dispute we have here online and Bible verses are going to be quoted or at least referred to. The problem then becomes one of interpretation. For example, a Roman Catholic will say that Matthew 16:18 means that Jesus established the Papacy and made Peter the first Pope. But then a member of one or another of the thousands of other churches, whether Catholic or Protestant, will point out why that verse doesn't say that at all--usually by giving a different interpretation of the verse. It is NOT the case, then, that either side is arguing without regard to Scripture.

That's most often what happens. I do note that there are several exceptions, however, but they are exceptions. One, there are occasions in which Roman Catholics will not care what the Scriptures say; they base their conclusions on alleged traditions, consider them to have been guided by the Holy Ghost, and usually will say so. The other is from folks at the other end of the Christian spectrum who will in similar fashion sidestep Scripture and insist that 'a word of knowledge' or "God spoke to my heart" or some other sort of direct revelation is better than anything else and is what directs their thinking.
All is verified by scripture if true when speaking of theology.
 

MoreCoffee

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All is verified by scripture if true when speaking of theology.

I do not believe that. Holy scripture verfies a great deal and is always pivotal on any matter about which it speaks but holy scripture does not speak about absolutely everything. Some assert that scripture does speak about absolutely everything that is needed for salvation. That's okay if they want to make that claim then fine. I will not follow their lead. I can think of a number of things that people do and believe that are not explicit in holy scripture and are not taught by implication in holy scripture but are nevertheless part of Christian faith and life and are as important as many things that are explicit in holy scripture.
 

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Proper interpretation is the other thing and where hearing from the spirit is vital although some poo poo the idea of the spirit speaking. Truth is that God scattered little nuggets all through sacripture, it is not klike a boook that you can turn to page such and such to find your answer, those who rely on just one passage for interpertation do so at their own peril
 

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I think you know what I'm referring to. Take almost any hot button doctrinal dispute we have here online and Bible verses are going to be quoted or at least referred to. The problem then becomes one of interpretation. For example, a Roman Catholic will say that Matthew 16:18 means that Jesus established the Papacy and made Peter the first Pope. But then a member of one or another of the thousands of other churches, whether Catholic or Protestant, will point out why that verse doesn't say that at all--usually by giving a different interpretation of the verse. It is NOT the case, then, that either side is arguing without regard to Scripture.

That's most often what happens. I do note that there are several exceptions, however, but they are exceptions. One, there are occasions in which Roman Catholics will not care what the Scriptures say; they base their conclusions on alleged traditions, consider them to have been guided by the Holy Ghost, and usually will say so. The other is from folks at the other end of the Christian spectrum who will in similar fashion sidestep Scripture and insist that 'a word of knowledge' or "God spoke to my heart" or some other sort of direct revelation is better than anything else and is what directs their thinking.
Your example is one where the church of Rome practices eisegesis rather than exegesis when looking at a text. In such a case Rome is acting no differently than any Muslim who goes searching for Muhammad in the Bible and then finds him in a verse that has been torn from its context.

We should acknowledge that God has a specific meaning for every text in scripture. We want to know God's meaning, not a person or groups whims. It is a cop-out to say there are many interpretations and no one can know which interpretation is correct. We can often know the correct interpretation because the context reveals it. The plain sense makes common sense so we seek no other sense.
Sadly, the motivations of Rome are power and control rather than sound interpretation within context.
 

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Proper interpretation is the other thing and where hearing from the spirit is vital although some poo poo the idea of the spirit speaking. Truth is that God scattered little nuggets all through sacripture, it is not klike a boook that you can turn to page such and such to find your answer, those who rely on just one passage for interpertation do so at their own peril
The Spirit speaks through scripture.
 

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