Why did Jesus say that you can pay money to get out of Hell?

[NathanH83]

It's not even close to clear what you're doing, especially given the title of your thread. First you sounded as if you believed it, now you're saying that "people think" without saying which people or why they think it. Whether you think 2 Maccabees should or shouldn't be part of Scripture isn't clear either. Hence all I see is a load of words with little to no purpose.

Do you think 2 Maccabees 12 says that money atones for sin? I don’t.
I don’t think it endorses that idea any more than the idea that Matthew 5 says that paying money gets you out of Hell.

 

[tango]

Do you think 2 Maccabees 12 says that money atones for sin? I don’t.
I don’t think it endorses that idea any more than the idea that Matthew 5 says that paying money gets you out of Hell.

So having started a thread titled "Why did Jesus say you can pay money to get out of hell" your conclusion is that he didn't?

 

[NathanH83]

So having started a thread titled "Why did Jesus say you can pay money to get out of hell" your conclusion is that he didn't?

My whole point is that that’s obviously a completely ridiculous thing to think. It’s clearly a misinterpretation. But we don’t rip out the book of Matthew just because somebody misinterpreted it. Same goes with Maccabees.

What do you think?….


They found sacred charms, idols from Jamnia that the Law forbids Jews to wear, under the clothing of each of the dead. It became clear to all why these men had fallen. Then they all praised the Lord, the righteous judge who makes hidden things visible. They appealed to God and prayed for the sin that had been committed to be completely wiped out. The honorable Judas called on the people to keep themselves free from sin, since everyone had seen what had happened because of the sin of those who fell. After taking a collection from each man, he sent the sum of two thousand silver drachmen to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. He was acting honorably and appropriately, thinking about the resurrection. If he hadn’t been looking forward to the resurrection of the dead, then it would have been unnecessary and frivolous to pray for them. He was looking, however, to that best reward laid up for those who die in godliness, and so this was a pious and holy thought. Thus he made an offering of reconciliation so that the dead would be forgiven of their sin.
-2 Maccabees 12:40-45

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Maccabees 12:40-45 - Common English Bible

They found sacred charms, idols from Jamnia that the Law forbids Jews to wear, under the clothing of each of the dead. It became clear to all why these men had fallen. Then they all praised the Lord, the righteous judge who makes hidden things visible. They appealed to God and prayed for the sin...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Josiah]

What do you think?….

Read posts 27 and 32




.

 

[NathanH83]

Read posts 27 and 32




.

You haven’t said anything useful or helpful or even relevant. You won’t even share your opinion on whether Maccabees is saying that money atones for sin. You won’t share your opinion on the subject, so go away and pester someone else. I’d rather converse with people who are actually willing to share their opinion.

 

[Cassia]

Most Christians aren't interested in conversations of speculation from my experience.

 

[NathanH83]

Most Christians aren't interested in conversations of speculation from my experience.

Most Christians don’t want books taken out of their Bibles.
Most Christians want to understand the prophecies in Daniel.

Most Christians don’t know that in order to understand some of the prophecies in Daniel, they have to read the books that were taken out of their Bibles.

 

[Lamb]

This is entirely a bait and switch thread?

 

[tango]

My whole point is that that’s obviously a completely ridiculous thing to think. It’s clearly a misinterpretation. But we don’t rip out the book of Matthew just because somebody misinterpreted it. Same goes with Maccabees.

What do you think?….

Honestly, I think engaging with you is proving to be an apocalyptic waste of time.

 

[Josiah]

I’m just saying that maybe we should have the books in our Bibles that the early church had in theirs.

1. NO ONE is telling ANYONE or ANYTHING what they may read or publish.


2. IF your denomination or church or pastor is forbidding you to read something, then take your beef to them. NO ONE here has remotely suggested such a prohibition.


3. "The Early Church" did not have a Bible. The Early Church never decided anything about what is or is not Scripture. The Early Church never commanded or prohibited anyone from reading anything. The Early Church did not pass any laws concerning what publishing houses may or may not do. Your whole premise is based on a falsehood, a lie. Yes, some INDIVIDUAL, SINGULAR Christians during the era of the early church expressed personal OPINIONS about what is Scripture but no individual is the early church. And yes, past the era of he early church, 3 or 4 local, regional, NONecumenical, NONauthoritative western, Latin gatherings did as well but no such gathering is the early church (and you don't accept any such meetings so there goes your whole point).

ripping it out

1. It's impossible to rip out something unless it's first in. When will this dawn on you? And again, we note your "IT" and "THEM" how you will not or can not even identify what books you are referring to.


2. And again, IF your pastor or church or denomination gathered up all the pew Bibles in your chapel and ripped out a bunch of books from them before replacing them in the pews, then take that up with your pastor, church and/or denomination. Simple. Easy.

Honestly, I think engaging with you is proving to be an apocalyptic waste of time.

Yup.


NATHAN,


This thread of yours fits your pattern...... and is an example of why you've lost your audience here.

IF you ever have a point, my recommendation is that you clearly MAKE THAT POINT.... not all this "bait and switch" and chasing rabbit holes and constant shall games. And support your point with substantiation rather than pure myths, circular reasoning, baseless speculations and a LOT of blatantly WRONG assumptions and accusations. Nathan, truth matters. Honesty matters. People are put off by games, tricks, lies.... and stuff that frankly doesn't seem to have any point anyway (wasting our time, WASTING our time).

The community here has been AMAZINGLY patient with you. They have TRIED HARD to engage with you and to help you. Spending a LOT of time and effort in posts to you that obviously you didn't even read. Anywhere else, you would have just been ignored or banned... quickly. But I suspect you've turned off everyone. Sad.






.

 

[NathanH83]

Honestly, I think engaging with you is proving to be an apocalyptic waste of time.

Fine. Don’t.
But at least read the “extra” books that they say don’t belong in the Bible.
Make your own decision. Don’t let them bully you into thinking it’s not scripture. Many church fathers in the early church thought these books are scripture. So make your own decision.
And look at what Maccabees actually says. It’s not saying money atones for sin.

 

[NathanH83]

1. NO ONE is telling ANYONE or ANYTHING what they may read or publish.


2. IF your denomination or church or pastor is forbidding you to read something, then take your beef to them. NO ONE here has remotely suggested such a prohibition.


3. "The Early Church" did not have a Bible. The Early Church never decided anything about what is or is not Scripture. The Early Church never commanded or prohibited anyone from reading anything. The Early Church did not pass any laws concerning what publishing houses may or may not do. Your whole premise is based on a falsehood, a lie. Yes, some INDIVIDUAL, SINGULAR Christians during the era of the early church expressed personal OPINIONS about what is Scripture but no individual is the early church. And yes, past the era of he early church, 3 or 4 local, regional, NONecumenical, NONauthoritative western, Latin gatherings did as well but no such gathering is the early church (and you don't accept any such meetings so there goes your whole point).






1. It's impossible to rip out something unless it's first in. When will this dawn on you? And again, we note your "IT" and "THEM" how you will not or can not even identify what books you are referring to.


2. And again, IF your pastor or church or denomination gathered up all the pew Bibles in your chapel and ripped out a bunch of books from them before replacing them in the pews, then take that up with your pastor, church and/or denomination. Simple. Easy.







Yup.


NATHAN,


This thread of yours fits your pattern...... and is an example of why you've lost your audience here.

IF you ever have a point, my recommendation is that you clearly MAKE THAT POINT.... not all this "bait and switch" and chasing rabbit holes and constant shall games. And support your point with substantiation rather than pure myths, circular reasoning, baseless speculations and a LOT of blatantly WRONG assumptions and accusations. Nathan, truth matters. Honesty matters. People are put off by games, tricks, lies.... and stuff that frankly doesn't seem to have any point anyway (wasting our time, WASTING our time).

The community here has been AMAZINGLY patient with you. They have TRIED HARD to engage with you and to help you. Spending a LOT of time and effort in posts to you that obviously you didn't even read. Anywhere else, you would have just been ignored or banned... quickly. But I suspect you've turned off everyone. Sad.






.

You talk too much.
And you don’t say anything helpful or related to the subject matter. All you have is hostile sounding verbal attacks. So I skim over what you say, but don’t read it in its entirety. If you had anything good to say then I’d read it. But you don’t. So I ignore most of what you say.

Focus on the subject matter and stop attacking an individual’s character.

 

[tango]

Fine. Don’t.
But at least read the “extra” books that they say don’t belong in the Bible.
Make your own decision. Don’t let them bully you into thinking it’s not scripture. Many church fathers in the early church thought these books are scripture. So make your own decision.
And look at what Maccabees actually says. It’s not saying money atones for sin.

Who said "they" are bullying me into anything? Who are "they" anyway? If you knew anything at all about me you'd know that intellectual bullying isn't something that works on me. But by all means carry on with groups referred to with vague "they"/"them" pronouns without even the slightest attempt to come up with a useful definition.

I'll just echo Josiah's point here. If you want to make a point how about just making it, rather than trying to make one point only to spin around and then claim you disagree with your own opening premise? It makes conversation so much more useful than silly bait-and-switch games.

... and with that, another thread can go into the mental garbage can.

 

[Bluezone777]

I honestly am not interested as I think the books of Genesis through Revelation are sufficient. I don't expect to have all the answers about everything but I do know who God is and isn't from them and knowing Him is enough for me. Having faith means having trust in the one who you have faith in as trust is the foundation of every relationship whether it be one person with another or between a person and God. If you have all the answers then there would be no place for faith to operate.

Personally I think being full of questions that the person in question demands answers for is a sign that person's faith and trust in God is lacking or at least immature to say the least.

 

[NathanH83]

Who said "they" are bullying me into anything? Who are "they" anyway? If you knew anything at all about me you'd know that intellectual bullying isn't something that works on me. But by all means carry on with groups referred to with vague "they"/"them" pronouns without even the slightest attempt to come up with a useful definition.

I'll just echo Josiah's point here. If you want to make a point how about just making it, rather than trying to make one point only to spin around and then claim you disagree with your own opening premise? It makes conversation so much more useful than silly bait-and-switch games.

... and with that, another thread can go into the mental garbage can.

Bait and switch?

Good grief. I was just making a point.
People say that 2 Maccabees doesn’t belong in the Bible because chapter 12 says that they paid silver coins to atone for someone’s sins.
I’m just making the point that 2 Maccabees is NOT saying that any more than Jesus is saying that in Matthew 5.

The silver coins paid for the purchasing of the animals necessary for the sacrifice. Back then they had animal sacrifices.

And yes, there are tons of Bible teachers who say the books of Maccabees are not scripture. And yes there are plenty of people, even people on this forum, who will bully you with all kinds of hate speech, verbal attacks, and personal attacks, against anyone who might say that the apocryphal books belong in the Bible.

The most hostile people are Origen and Josiah. But they won’t even share their opinion on whether these books belong in the Bible. They’re too scared to share their opinion on the matter, in fear that they might get criticized for their illogical assumptions. So they hide by not sharing their beliefs on the matter, and instead just barrage others like me or Andrew with all kinds of hostile attacks and constant criticism. But they’ll make sure not to share their own beliefs lest anyone criticize them and give them a taste of their own medicine.

 

[NathanH83]

I honestly am not interested as I think the books of Genesis through Revelation are sufficient. I don't expect to have all the answers about everything but I do know who God is and isn't from them and knowing Him is enough for me. Having faith means having trust in the one who you have faith in as trust is the foundation of every relationship whether it be one person with another or between a person and God. If you have all the answers then there would be no place for faith to operate.

Personally I think being full of questions that the person in question demands answers for is a sign that person's faith and trust in God is lacking or at least immature to say the least.

What is Daniel chapter 8 prophesying about?

Look into it. You’ll find that it’s prophesying about the events in 1 Maccabees chapter 1.

If you think all the books in your Protestant Bible is sufficient, then you’re wrong.

Oh, and who are the tortured men in Hebrews 11:35? They’re in 2 Maccabees 7.

As for your judgment that my faith is lacking…”judge not.”
You don’t know me. That’s a personal attack.