Why can't the bread & wine be the body & blood of the Lord?

[MoreCoffee]

1. What is the mechanism?

No mechanism is explained in holy scripture. In John chapter six Jesus spoke these words:

• I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.
• The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
• I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.
• I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
• Stop grumbling among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
• I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.

When John 6 has been previously mentioned it was left unanswered because the stance was that John 6 was not about Eucharist. smh

I say that John chapter six is about the Eucharist. It is the only passage in the gospel according to John that deals with the subject of receiving the body and blood of Jesus.

Romans 5:12
We can assume that all have sinned. But in what way are we convicted in sin? That's really the question... We're deemed righteous in Christ 1 Corinthians 1:30

Jesus didn't sin so we ought not assume that all have sinned. Job is called perfect by God. Enoch is said to have pleased God. So there is some difficulty in taking the all in Romans 3:23 as meaning absolutely every human being who ever lived. Romans 5:12 does not include Enoch because he did not taste death according to Hebrews 11:5. And we ought not conclude that Romans 5:12 means that everybody who dies does so because they have sinned because Jesus died and he knew no sin. Thus we have Enoch who never died and Jesus who never sinned and both are clear exceptions to the assumption that you ask your readers to make.

The judgement is in place for satan John 16:11. Satan is the source of sin and has become father of the human race John 8:44 because of Adam selling our birthright ( in effect.)

John 8:44 is addressed to the wicked religious rulers of Judah not to all of mankind. John 16:11 is about the coming of the Holy Spirit and his role in three things (1) sin, (2) righteousness, and (3) Judgement the last of the three is the judgement mentioned in John 16:11 so I am wondering why you mentioned it since it is clearly not the last judgement because that is yet to come. John 8:44 says nothing about Adam selling a birthright. I do not think any passage in the holy scriptures says that Adam "sold our birthright".

The only way to be freed from sin is to believe in Christ, the Son of God. John 16:9 Believe in Him, in His righteousness to us, then we're justified in Him Romans 3:24, Romans 4:25

I am not sure why you mention Romans 3:24, Romans 4:25, and John 16:9. But I agree that belief in Jesus leads to union with him and that means everlasting life in him. If you want to establish a link between faith in Jesus and reception of eternal life then Romans chapter six will suit your argument better because it makes the link between faith and the resurrection life explicit while discussing the meaning of Christian baptism. John chapter six presents the argument for eternal life being a benefit received by those who eat Christ's flesh and drink Christ's blood and because that passage is about the holy Eucharist it could be rightly used in an argument for faith being linked to the worthy reception of the holy Eucharist.

If we don't repent of the sin that is in Adam and believe into Christ, the Son of God, we will remain in sin and share the judgment of Satan (as the father of the fallen race) for eternity Matthew 25:41.

Why do you say that Satan is "the father of the fallen race"? But you are correct to link the last judgement in Matthew 25:41 with the judgement of Satan.

These are the main points that the Holy Spirit uses to convict humanity.

Call it what you like, penal substitution,whatever ...

I never liked the theology that includes "penal substitution" because it is, in my opinion, contrary to the teaching of Christ.

I call Him my Kinsman Redeemer (read Boaz & Ruth for the example) ....

As a redeemer He is like us but is also God. Ruth was a Moabite that was redeemed into the family of God thru Naomi.

Ruth was not redeemed through Naomi. She was redeemed by Boaz who was a kinsman of Naomi (through her marriage to Elim'elech) and thus entitled to redeem the property of Naomi's husband and sons (they all having died) once the nearest relative had refused to redeem as stipulated in the Law.

Christ is our redeemer. He gave Himself up for us, so as to impart life to us.
That God needed a lamb to cover us is just a fact from the beginning, we're not told why. I guess just to hide our nakedness.
I know this may seem too simple for some peeps but He had to sacrifice Himself to separate and sanctify the church to present the body to Himself, having been severed in the past. Because we were dead Ephesians 2:1 , belonging to another family, the family of satan's and not of God's family (a Moabite in that sense)

He is the Redeemer ( as opposed to the penal substitution belief ) for the simple fact that it demands penalty for Christians when plainly it is just satan's family that is in jeopardy. What the Traditionalists call perdition doesn't apply to Christians 2 John 1:8 only loss of rewards. And He will redeem us to our final reward in Revelation 5:6, and as God the final redeemer in Revelation 22:1

His work as redeemer

I am leaving the part in your argument about traditionalists unanswered because it really is not about the holy Eucharist. I say only this about what you wrote - I do not agree.

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

His flesh is life. As the lamb of God He feeds and redeems, before the fall as the tree of life he was just for feeding on. Then in dying for us He gave His flesh so that we could have life. Blood is also necessary for redemption. Separating the flesh and blood John 6:54 clearly means His death.

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 6:56 is the resurrected life of those who believe in Him.
By eating we are taking Him in as nourishment for the new creation for the new way of life.

John 14:19-20
Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

John 6:62 involves His ascension which followed redemption as proof His work had been completed.

Hebrews 1:3b
... After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Wherefore He is the life-giving spirit John 6:63 who gives life and speaks in spirit and life.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

As the life-giving spirit He is the life supply. Receiving (believing) Him as the crucified and resurrected savior, the lifegiving Spirit comes into us to impart eternal life. We receive (believe) the Lord Jesus but we get the Holy Spirit who gives us life.

Communion in the way of breaking of bread was the way in which the earliest church recognized Jesus, as exemplified by the disciples at Emmuas.

I may return to this part of your argument another time - it does not appear to be about the holy Eucharist.

 

[TurtleHare]

I can't say for sure if John 6 is about the Eucharist or if it's spiritual only but man doesn't it seem like since the Jews who were offended got offended over something important and if it wasn't important than Jesus would have said Just Kidding come on back?

 

[Cassia]

I can't say for sure if John 6 is about the Eucharist or if it's spiritual only but man doesn't it seem like since the Jews who were offended got offended over something important and if it wasn't important than Jesus would have said Just Kidding come on back?

The context was those who wanted material gain from Him so why would He?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The context was those who wanted material gain from Him so why would He?

The context was telling the story of those who came following him because he fed them in the wilderness from five loves and two fishes.* They followed him because of a miracle. Many today seek for miracles too. Hoping to receive something from God. That is very like the disciples who followed Jesus and who heard his words - the ones recorded in John 6:22-71. It is important for this thread to notice that those who departed were disciples rather than opponents of Jesus. "After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him." John 6:66

* Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.
John 6:26

 

[Rens]

The context was telling the story of those who came following him because he fed them in the wilderness from five loves and two fishes.* They followed him because of a miracle. Many today seek for miracles too. Hoping to receive something from God. That is very like the disciples who followed Jesus and who heard his words - the ones recorded in John 6:22-71. It is important for this thread to notice that those who departed were disciples rather than opponents of Jesus. "After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him." John 6:66

* Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.
John 6:26

Interesting that exactly that text is 666.

 

[Lamb]

Interesting that exactly that text is 666.

It's very interesting John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

The only thing is that numbering of scripture wasn't in place until the year 1200 so maybe it was done on purpose?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Interesting that exactly that text is 666.

That is an interesting coincidence.

 

[TurtleHare]

The context was those who wanted material gain from Him so why would He?

Could you please clarify your position that John 6 has the context of material gain because I have read it over and over again and cannot see that in the text.

 

[atpollard]

Could you please clarify your position that John 6 has the context of material gain because I have read it over and over again and cannot see that in the text.

John 6:26

 

[MoreCoffee]

Could you please clarify your position that John 6 has the context of material gain because I have read it over and over again and cannot see that in the text.

John 6:26

It always seemed to me that the disciples who stopped following Jesus did so because they did not like the idea of eating Jesus' body and drinking Jesus' blood. They likely would have preferred a "spiritualised" version of Jesus' words. Something like this:

Jesus said to them, "I am [like] the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not [spiritually] hunger, and he who believes in me shall never [spiritually] thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am [like] the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may [spiritually] eat of it and not die. I am [like] the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one [spiritually] eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my [metaphorical] flesh."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you [spiritually] eat the flesh of the Son of man and [spiritually] drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who [spiritually] eats my flesh and [spiritually] drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my [spiritual] flesh is food indeed, and my [spiritual] blood is drink indeed. He who [spiritually] eats my flesh and [spiritually] drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who [spiritually] eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who [spiritually] eats this bread will live for ever." This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'na-um. John 6:35-59​

For the disciples who departed the above alterations would very likely have satisfied them and they would have stayed. All Jesus needed to do is compromise his message. Make it spiritual rather than real and make union with him a metaphor and things would be acceptable to his followers.

 

[atpollard]

It always seemed to me that the disciples who stopped following Jesus did so because they did not like the idea of eating Jesus' body and drinking Jesus' blood. They likely would have preferred a "spiritualised" version of Jesus' words. Something like this:
[snip]
For the disciples who departed the above alterations would very likely have satisfied them and they would have stayed. All Jesus needed to do is compromise his message. Make it spiritual rather than real and make union with him a metaphor and things would be acceptable to his followers.

You have ignored the historical, social and cultural context.
Jesus was not a 20th century Catholic or Protestant dealing with our cultural baggage. He was talking to First Century Jews dealing with their cultural baggage.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You have ignored the historical, social and cultural context.
Jesus was not a 20th century Catholic or Protestant dealing with our cultural baggage. He was talking to First Century Jews dealing with their cultural baggage.

What you say about Jesus' not being a 20th century chap is true. Nor were the disciples who stopped following him after he insisted that whoever ate his flesh and drank his blood had eternal life and whoever did not had no life in them. A 20th century chap would never say things like that. And a first century Jew would not say it either. That is why his Jewish disciples stopped following him when Jesus said it. They said “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” And after Jesus reiterated what he'd said with added emphasis they said "'This saying is difficult,' and, 'Who is able to listen to it?'" After Jesus said "no one is able to come to me, unless it has been given to him by my Father" the passage notes that "many of his disciples went back, and they no longer walked with him."

It does no good to treat the passage as spiritual meaning that it ought to be read as metaphorical. Many people read the passage as if it were an extended metaphor now. They treat it as if it said what I wrote in my previous post.

 

[Josiah]

You have ignored the historical, social and cultural context.
Jesus was not a 20th century Catholic or Protestant dealing with our cultural baggage. He was talking to First Century Jews dealing with their cultural baggage.

I agree. Since the Enlightenment, modern folks don't believe in miracles... and don't believe anything can be unless OUR current understanding of science explains it. In this milieu, Real Presence must be rejected. Indeed, as many are also rejecting the Incarnation and Resurrection.

 

[atpollard]

What you say about Jesus' not being a 20th century chap is true. Nor were the disciples who stopped following him after he insisted that whoever ate his flesh and drank his blood had eternal life and whoever did not had no life in them. A 20th century chap would never say things like that. And a first century Jew would not say it either. That is why his Jewish disciples stopped following him when Jesus said it. They said “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” And after Jesus reiterated what he'd said with added emphasis they said "'This saying is difficult,' and, 'Who is able to listen to it?'" After Jesus said "no one is able to come to me, unless it has been given to him by my Father" the passage notes that "many of his disciples went back, and they no longer walked with him."

It does no good to treat the passage as spiritual meaning that it ought to be read as metaphorical. Many people read the passage as if it were an extended metaphor now. They treat it as if it said what I wrote in my previous post.

I agree. Since the Enlightenment, modern folks don't believe in miracles... and don't believe anything can be unless OUR current understanding of science explains it. In this milieu, Real Presence must be rejected. Indeed, as many are also rejecting the Incarnation and Resurrection.

Let me ask a question:
What was a typical First Century 'Jew on the Street' expecting of a 'messiah'?
Did Jesus deliver on THEIR expectations?

 

[popsthebuilder]

It always seemed to me that the disciples who stopped following Jesus did so because they did not like the idea of eating Jesus' body and drinking Jesus' blood. They likely would have preferred a "spiritualised" version of Jesus' words. Something like this:

Jesus said to them, "I am [like] the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not [spiritually] hunger, and he who believes in me shall never [spiritually] thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am [like] the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may [spiritually] eat of it and not die. I am [like] the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one [spiritually] eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my [metaphorical] flesh."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you [spiritually] eat the flesh of the Son of man and [spiritually] drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who [spiritually] eats my flesh and [spiritually] drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my [spiritual] flesh is food indeed, and my [spiritual] blood is drink indeed. He who [spiritually] eats my flesh and [spiritually] drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who [spiritually] eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who [spiritually] eats this bread will live for ever." This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'na-um. John 6:35-59​

For the disciples who departed the above alterations would very likely have satisfied them and they would have stayed. All Jesus needed to do is compromise his message. Make it spiritual rather than real and make union with him a metaphor and things would be acceptable to his followers.

Soooo.....are the things of GOD spiritual or earthly?

peace

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[ImaginaryDay2]

Soooo.....are the things of GOD spiritual or earthly?

peace

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"They're Spiritual" - A-HA! Gotcha!
"They're Earthly" - How can you SAY that???!!!

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

dp

 

[MoreCoffee]

Soooo.....are the things of GOD spiritual or earthly?

peace

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In John 6:22-71 the flesh and blood are real and visible. "The things of God" is a very broad phrase that covers almost everything to do with Christian faith and practice so I can say only this about the things of God, some are earthly some are heavenly some are physical/material and some are spiritual.

 

[popsthebuilder]

In John 6:22-71 the flesh and blood are real and visible. "The things of God" is a very broad phrase that covers almost everything to do with Christian faith and practice so I can say only this about the things of God, some are earthly some are heavenly some are physical/material and some are spiritual.

Romans: 1. 11. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; - Bible Offline

Romans: 7. 14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. - Bible Offline

Romans: 8. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. - Bible Offline

1 Corinthians: 2. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - Bible Offline

1 Corinthians: 2. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - Bible Offline

1 Corinthians: 10. 3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 15. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17. For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter? 21. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. - Bible Offline

1 Corinthians: 15. 45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. - Bible Offline

Ephesians: 6. 12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. - Bible Offline

1 Peter: 2. 5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. - Bible Offline

Revelation: 11. 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. - Bible Offline

1 John: 4. 1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. - Bible Offline

1 Corinthians: 2. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - Bible Offline

Didn't find the actual verse I was looking for that out right says GOD is spirit.

But we ha e both seen it.

I do not deny that all belongs to GOD. by I agree with scripture that God is spirit and the things of GOD are spiritual, and spiritually discerned.

peace

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[MoreCoffee]

...

Didn't find the actual verse I was looking for that out right says GOD is spirit.

But we ha e both seen it.

I do not deny that all belongs to GOD. by I agree with scripture that God is spirit and the things of GOD are spiritual, and spiritually discerned.

peace

Sent from my Alcatel_6055U using Tapatalk

John 4:24 is the verse you were looking for, I think.

"God is Spirit. And so, those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

Jesus is flesh and bones as well as Spirit. See my hands and feet, that it is I myself. Look and touch. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have. Luke 24:39

We, meaning human beings, have flesh and bones too. Our senses are built by God to perceive matter and energy in creation. We cannot be complete while existing as pure spirit - For we know that, when our earthly house of this habitation is dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven. And for this reason also, we groan, desiring to be clothed from above with our habitation from heaven. If we are so clothed, then we will not be found to be naked. Then too, we who are in this tabernacle groan under the burden, because we do not want to be stripped, but rather to be clothed from above, so that what is mortal may be absorbed by life. 2 Corinthians 5:1-4

Jesus words in John 6:22-71 are spirit and life yet real and physical.