Why are some Christians so consumed with their denomination?

MennoSota

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I don't think that's what Albion has done here. He's brought clarity to what's being discussed. And, I believe, that 'unaffiliated' might be a good descriptor for you as well. You've repeatedly said you hold to no denominational affiliation, however your posts point to the truths extolled by several Calvinist denominations (despite your refusal to acknowledge that).
Again, you move toward denomination over the Bible. Your inclination is to label within a denomination and thus identify yourself first within your labeled denomination and second within the body of Christ.
My point is that we have two categories in scripture. We have:
1) The adopted children of God
2) The rebels who oppose God
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Again, you move toward denomination over the Bible. Your inclination is to label within a denomination and thus identify yourself first within your labeled denomination and second within the body of Christ.
My point is that we have two categories in scripture. We have:
1) The adopted children of God
2) The rebels who oppose God

I'm surprised at your slip-up. Biblically, we are all sinners and condemned to death. God, in his mercy and grace, provided a way to live through the shed blood of Christ. One category, one solution.

And I have nowhere stated that denominationalism takes priority over identifying one as being within the body of Christ. Ftr, I currently have no denominational affiliation.
 

MennoSota

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I'm surprised at your slip-up. Biblically, we are all sinners and condemned to death. God, in his mercy and grace, provided a way to live through the shed blood of Christ. One category, one solution.

And I have nowhere stated that denominationalism takes priority over identifying one as being within the body of Christ. Ftr, I currently have no denominational affiliation.

Indeed, we are all sinners. Some sinners have been adopted and made children of God. Others remain in rebellion. Thus my pointing out the two groups, which is not a slip up on my part, though you think it is.
Ultimately, then, denominationalism takes a back seat and is secondary to our identification as adopted children of the Sovereign King.
 

psalms 91

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Denominaltionalism comes into play when we identify with the doctrine and believe it at least for me. For instance the gay issue is a big one and if mine ever adopts a policy where gays can serve as clergy or are allowed to perform weddings then I will leave the denomination
 

tango

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What came first, the Bible or denominations?
You constantly place the denomination in front of the Bible. Why do you do that?

Let me just clarify something here.

If you stick to your interpretation of the Bible you're a thinking individual who has thought it through. If I stick to my interpretation of the Bible I'm consumed with my denomination and blindly parroting what it teaches.

Does that sum it up about right?
 

tango

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In this age of UBER-individualism (sadly, even among Christians) people LOVE to go it alone, be "a unique individual" (they say that as if that's a good thing). This carries over into doctrine. "I agree with NO ONE and NO ONE has ever agreed with me!" they shout as if that's good. All of Christianity is me, myself and I. THAT'S all that matters, all that's important. Extreme individualism entered with the Enlightenment - and it's matastasised, like a cancer, all over Christianity. The move to non-denoms, anti-creeds is all just symptoms of the cancer. And it's all mixed with a HEAVY dose of its necessary companion relativism (there is no truth, just your opinion - and your opinion is the only one that counts).

I think there are a few issues at play here.

As you say there is an increasing push to be ME, ME, ME, ME because, you know, I'm a special and unique individual. Which is all well and good - I am a unique individual (how special I am is a matter of opinion) but I can't simply create my own reality however much I might like to think I can. I can read the Bible and form my conclusions as to what it means and the chances are that if you compare my conclusions to any given denomination there will be areas where I agree and areas where I disagree. If I find a denomination that perfectly reflects my own interpretation of Scripture the chances are that's the denomination I'll join, at least notionally. If I find a denomination that adequately reflects my own interpretation of Scripture, or a church affiliated with a denomination where the church adequately reflects my interpretation of Scripture, I won't have a problem with attending that church. When I say "adequately reflects" I mean to say that there are no glaring contradictions that I just can't live with, or that any contradictions are in matters we can both consider secondary.

In many regards it's rather like voting in a presidential election. I might look at the Republican platform and the Democrat platform, decide which one I think is best going forward, and then vote accordingly. If I vote for a candidate it doesn't mean I agree with everything they say and do, nor does it mean I agree with every stance of their party, merely that I agree with more of what they want to do than with what the other party wants to do.

At the same time as individualism is rising, an inevitable byproduct of that is an increasing reluctance to be pigeonholed. Somewhat ironically, there seems to be an increasing tendency to try and pigeonhole people even as we ourselves don't want to be pigeonholed. It's easier to write someone off based on associating them with some group with whom we disagree, as if that alone were sufficient to counter their arguments. For example, someone presenting a right-wing political view may get a response that's little more than "spoken like a true Republican", as if that were all it took to counter the viewpoint. The tendency to seek to divide people into two camps, based on whatever dividing line it takes, such that we can use appropriate virtue signalling to indicate that we are on the right side, and The Other Guy is on the wrong side. Needless to say there can only be two camps - the right one and the wrong one - and any tactic to discredit The Other Side is considered acceptable.

Community, humility, truth - these, sadly, are ancient and in large part abandoned concepts. And this has sadly infected Christianity. The result is the individualism we see ("What the Bible says to ME...." etc., etc., etc), the rise of non-denominationalism (where every church wants total independence to do and say WHATEVER it wants), anti-theology and anti-creeds (truth is your personal, individual opinion). The Enlightenment - a pagan philosophical movement - has totally infected Christianity, the matastasis has been nearly total. Houston, we've got a problem. But it's where we are. And the disease will advance, unchecked, as long as we embrace it. Yup, as all know, it's one of my constant rants, lol

I think this is an area where we need to strike a balance. You're certainly correct in that concepts like "To me, God is....." are popular these days when the reality is that God is God and our opinions do nothing to change his characteristics. If the Christian worldview is correct then people who believe in Vishnu and Ganesh are wrong; if the Hindu worldview is correct then Yahweh is a false god, and so on. It makes no sense to argue that "to me, Miami is a small village a few miles east of Seattle" and yet people truly seem to believe they can create their own god based on their liking.

It does seem eminently reasonable for people to read Scripture and seek to understand its meaning for themselves, rather than simply accepting what the guy in the pulpit on Sunday says it means. At the same time the quest needs to be to find the objective truth contained within Scripture rather than pretending there's some message in there that is only for me because, you know, I'm special enough to have my own path and nobody gets to tell me what to do. If we truly seek to know Christ and mold ourselves to his image I don't see a problem. If we are trying to use Scripture to mold Christ to our image, then we have a problem.
 

MennoSota

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Let me just clarify something here.

If you stick to your interpretation of the Bible you're a thinking individual who has thought it through. If I stick to my interpretation of the Bible I'm consumed with my denomination and blindly parroting what it teaches.

Does that sum it up about right?
No, it doesn't.
The difference is whether your position is developed based upon reading the Bible first or whether it is developed by reading commentary from denominations first and then fitting Bible verses in to create a prooftext.
If you read the Bible and make a conclusion based upon your observation and then find a denomination also holds that position you can acknowledge them. If you read a catechism and then find verses to fit the catechism, you have placed denomination above scripture.
 

NewCreation435

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No, it doesn't.
The difference is whether your position is developed based upon reading the Bible first or whether it is developed by reading commentary from denominations first and then fitting Bible verses in to create a prooftext.
If you read the Bible and make a conclusion based upon your observation and then find a denomination also holds that position you can acknowledge them. If you read a catechism and then find verses to fit the catechism, you have placed denomination above scripture.

Unless your spying on all of us, how would you know which a person does? You wouldn't. And as I said already in another post, nobody died and made you judge of another believer. Josiah, Tango and others on here don't answer to you. You seem to think they do
 

tango

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No, it doesn't.
The difference is whether your position is developed based upon reading the Bible first or whether it is developed by reading commentary from denominations first and then fitting Bible verses in to create a prooftext.
If you read the Bible and make a conclusion based upon your observation and then find a denomination also holds that position you can acknowledge them. If you read a catechism and then find verses to fit the catechism, you have placed denomination above scripture.

So are you doing anything more than projecting a belief onto other people?

I don't doubt there are some who blindly follow a denomination, presumably the one in which they were raised. But to assume that this is a widespread problem would require some evidence, and if it is a widespread problem it would make more sense to address it by talking directly to the people who are blindly following a denomination rather than projecting this concept of being consumed with denomination onto others.

Your comments about your beliefs being "because that's what the Bible says" assume that your interpretation of the Bible is the only valid one. Other people with differing beliefs have also based their views on reading Scripture and upon their interpretation of it. If it really were as simple as "that's not Scriptural" then many beliefs would simply wither and die, at least within groups that consider Scripture to be divinely inspired.

I'm well aware of the difference between molding ourselves to become more and more like Christ, and torturing Scripture until Christ becomes more and more like us. I'm also aware that many conflicting viewpoints can be validated with appeals to Scripture without resorting to horribly twisting the message to fit the view.
 

MennoSota

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So are you doing anything more than projecting a belief onto other people?

I don't doubt there are some who blindly follow a denomination, presumably the one in which they were raised. But to assume that this is a widespread problem would require some evidence, and if it is a widespread problem it would make more sense to address it by talking directly to the people who are blindly following a denomination rather than projecting this concept of being consumed with denomination onto others.

Your comments about your beliefs being "because that's what the Bible says" assume that your interpretation of the Bible is the only valid one. Other people with differing beliefs have also based their views on reading Scripture and upon their interpretation of it. If it really were as simple as "that's not Scriptural" then many beliefs would simply wither and die, at least within groups that consider Scripture to be divinely inspired.

I'm well aware of the difference between molding ourselves to become more and more like Christ, and torturing Scripture until Christ becomes more and more like us. I'm also aware that many conflicting viewpoints can be validated with appeals to Scripture without resorting to horribly twisting the message to fit the view.
You are reading far too much into what I have said.
On the CH there are many threads where denomination, catechism and concordia take the forefront and the Bible is only invoked as a prooftext for the church dogma. Why is that?
 

tango

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You are reading far too much into what I have said.
On the CH there are many threads where denomination, catechism and concordia take the forefront and the Bible is only invoked as a prooftext for the church dogma. Why is that?

Why not ask in the relevant threads? That way you can engage with the members you believe are putting denomination before Scripture rather than asking questions that are very generic and tend to appear somewhat vague.
 

MennoSota

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Why not ask in the relevant threads? That way you can engage with the members you believe are putting denomination before Scripture rather than asking questions that are very generic and tend to appear somewhat vague.
Yet, you keep responding.
 

MoreCoffee

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Why are some Christians so happy in their church?

It may be because they take what Jesus Christ said about the church seriously and do not see themselves as members of a loose group of like minded men and women with their families associated in a voluntary group being free to leave at their their own discretion as they please and move on to other groups that are similar but not the same. Maybe they do not want to be like worldly associations and organisations. Maybe they want to give themselves, as a living and holy sacrifice, pleasing to God; that is the kind of worship for them, as sensible people. They Don’t let themselves be shaped by the world where they live, but, rather, are transformed, through the renewal of their mind. They know that they must discern the will of God: what is good, what pleases, what is perfect.

Just a thought.
 

MennoSota

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Why are some Christians so happy in their church?

It may be because they take what Jesus Christ said about the church seriously and do not see themselves as members of a loose group of like minded men and women with their families associated in a voluntary group being free to leave at their their own discretion as they please and move on to other groups that are similar but not the same. Maybe they do not want to be like worldly associations and organisations. Maybe they want to give themselves, as a living and holy sacrifice, pleasing to God; that is the kind of worship for them, as sensible people. They Don’t let themselves be shaped by the world where they live, but, rather, are transformed, through the renewal of their mind. They know that they must discern the will of God: what is good, what pleases, what is perfect.

Just a thought.

The church is all those whom God had adopted and become children of the Sovereign King. It is not a loose group of illegitimate children.
It is precisely because God adopts according to his choosing that denominational thinking is so silly.
 

popsthebuilder

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The individual uses his best judgment and whatever evidence he thinks convincing. That's what all of us do, no matter what decision we are facing--whether to buy that new house or car, which college to enroll in, whether the person you have been dating is the one to marry...just about everything. The point is simply that they are moved to seek the right denomination. If they make a mistake (and all of them obviously cannot be correct although every one has members who think their church is the best or most correct one), they still have chosen for that reason.
How can there not be individuals within varied sects or even religions that comprise the whole of the Vine? Are there not different branches?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

Albion

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I don't know what you're asking or how it follows-up on what I wrote. (??)
 

Josiah

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Indeed, we are all sinners. Some sinners have been adopted and made children of God. Others remain in rebellion. Thus my pointing out the two groups, which is not a slip up on my part, though you think it is.
Ultimately, then, denominationalism takes a back seat and is secondary to our identification as adopted children of the Sovereign King.


My experience is that only some Catholics and Mormons seem to regard their association with a denomination as more dominate than their identity as Christians.


But it is true that some (Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, etc.) parrot their denominational position on things - at times with little to no thought. Just as you've been parroting verbatim the Anabaptist position on baptist..... echoing it perfectly.... over and over and over and over and over, in thread after thread.... I guess you COULD say doing that makes one identify themselves more by their denomination than as a Christian, but I'm not sure I agree with you. What about that? When you verbatim parrot the Anabaptist denomination, does that mean you identify with that denomination more than with Christ? Or is your premise false?
 

FredVB

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MoreCoffee said:
Why are some Christians so happy in their church?

It may be because they take what Jesus Christ said about the church seriously and do not see themselves as members of a loose group of like minded men and women with their families associated in a voluntary group being free to leave at their their own discretion as they please and move on to other groups that are similar but not the same. Maybe they do not want to be like worldly associations and organisations. Maybe they want to give themselves, as a living and holy sacrifice, pleasing to God; that is the kind of worship for them, as sensible people. They Don’t let themselves be shaped by the world where they live, but, rather, are transformed, through the renewal of their mind. They know that they must discern the will of God: what is good, what pleases, what is perfect.

The church is all those whom God had adopted and become children of the Sovereign King. It is not a loose group of illegitimate children.
It is precisely because God adopts according to his choosing that denominational thinking is so silly.

I see that there are different degrees of connection individual Christians have to the church they attend. In many of those they are tight congregations and those who grew up in those, and got married there, do not really know other churches, and would find great difficulty in ever breaking from such church to find any other one more suitable.

There are degrees of less attachment than that, at the other extreme are such that started going to church later in life, and visit more than one before settling at one, but they might leave that one over anything seen as significant a disagreement, for another that seems more right.

When I was a child I was in a Catholic church when my father had remarried into the church. When I grew up, I understood Christianity from the Bible, and at times went to different churches, generally nondenominational, lately Baptist, including the one I am with starting over eight years ago, but this one having dropped Baptist from its name. Even this one that I have been with this long I might drop from for another that is more right, at this time I see more how there is something wrong with this and all churches and denominations that I know of, though it is not about the gospel of salvation in Christ.
 

FredVB

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Some who are so tied to their church, as they grew up in it and have many strong connections in it, have that as all they know of Christianity. If they are kind of lazy about reading the Bible and learning from it, all they would learn of being Christian is from life in that church and their connections in it. That church and its denominational teachings would be indistinguishable from all that Christianity is to them. Those of other denominational beliefs would then be suspicious to them.
 
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