Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

Rom 3:24 says it all !

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This verse actually teaches the Gospel of God's Grace, and it speaks of Justification before God simply premised on Grace , because of or for the sake of the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, meaning His Death, His Tasting Death by the Grace of God Heb 2:9, each man He tasted death for , they are freely Justified thereby, and this Justification is apart from any Gospel obedience of their own, be it faith obedience, or repentance obedience, for if it had anything to do with any act of their own, then it was not freely done by God.

That word freely is the greek word dórean and means:

as a free gift, without payment, freely, something freely done (as gratis), i.e. without "cause"; unearned (undeserved); freely given (without cost) hence not done out of mere obligation or compulsion.

See Faith and Repentance are obligations, God commands Repentance Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Commanding means its an obligation, its a compulsion to be adhered to, complied with !

So If God Justified any based upon a compliance to His Command, then it was not done freely by His Grace as stated in the text Rom 3:24, simple as that !

9

 

[Messy]

Rom 3:24 says it all !

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This verse actually teaches the Gospel of God's Grace, and it speaks of Justification before God simply premised on Grace , because of or for the sake of the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, meaning His Death, His Tasting Death by the Grace of God Heb 2:9, each man He tasted death for , they are freely Justified thereby, and this Justification is apart from any Gospel obedience of their own, be it faith obedience, or repentance obedience, for if it had anything to do with any act of their own, then it was not freely done by God.

That word freely is the greek word dórean and means:

as a free gift, without payment, freely, something freely done (as gratis), i.e. without "cause"; unearned (undeserved); freely given (without cost) hence not done out of mere obligation or compulsion.

See Faith and Repentance are obligations, God commands Repentance Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Commanding means its an obligation, its a compulsion to be adhered to, complied with !

So If God Justified any based upon a compliance to His Command, then it was not done freely by His Grace as stated in the text Rom 3:24, simple as that !

9

Why not? Jesus commanded: Lazarus come forth! and he obeyed and came forth. That was his own good work he can boast about? Look at me! If I hadn't come forth, God could never have raised me!

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 37 - New King James Version

The Dry Bones Live - The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very...

www.biblegateway.com

God simply always creates by speaking and commanding. Same as in Genesis.

 

[Albion]

There's no resolving this disagreement...and a thousand back and forth posts won't do it.

The idea that God chose to save, and did save, only some people, and did it before they were born and believed stands in direct opposition to the hundreds of New Testament verses in which we see unbelieving people being urged to take the Gospel to heart and/or to accept Christ into their lives in order to be saved.

It may be worth noting, however, that the uber-Calvinists who believe in predestination overwhelmingly offer OLD Testament verses in support of their belief, which means that they are basing their conviction upon the situation of mankind PRIOR to the Incarnation and the Sacrificing of God himself on behalf of his creation--a series of events that changed everything.

 

[brightfame52]

Why not? Jesus commanded: Lazarus come forth! and he obeyed and came forth. That was his own good work he can boast about? Look at me! If I hadn't come forth, God could never have raised me!

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 37 - New King James Version

The Dry Bones Live - The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very...

www.biblegateway.com

God simply always creates by speaking and commanding. Same as in Genesis.

If you are saved because you obeyed a command, thats law, works and not grace.

 

[Messy]

If you are saved because you obeyed a command, thats law, works and not grace.

You never get saved if you refuse to do anything and wait on God to save you. Ppl who say they did nothing, yet got saved either heard the Gospel as a kid and always believed or they just forget what they did. Like those ppl who say keeping the law is your own works. Yet they get baptized, go to church. Keep sitting on the couch, eat chips, don't go to church, never read the Bible, do nothing! Else you are a cosavior. There are seriously ppl in Holland who wait for God to save them. An ex christian antitheist said to me that he would believe if God gave him a Paul conversion, but God didn't do that. Is he proud and arrogant or humble and should he keep waiting for God to do everything?

The lost son was dead. He had to get up and go back to his dad.

 

[Albion]

To be sure, none of that amounts to salvation by "works." Not the performance of charitable deeds or obedience to the Commandments.

Anyone who claims that that is the stuff of "works," simply doesn't understand the Christian concept of (good) works, regardless of whether works are thought by them to be the partner of Faith in the process of salvation or if, on the other hand, they reject that view while misidentifying what it is that they are rejecting in favor of Faith Alone.

 

[brightfame52]

You never get saved if you refuse to do anything and wait on God to save you. Ppl who say they did nothing, yet got saved either heard the Gospel as a kid and always believed or they just forget what they did. Like those ppl who say keeping the law is your own works. Yet they get baptized, go to church. Keep sitting on the couch, eat chips, don't go to church, never read the Bible, do nothing! Else you are a cosavior. There are seriously ppl in Holland who wait for God to save them. An ex christian antitheist said to me that he would believe if God gave him a Paul conversion, but God didn't do that. Is he proud and arrogant or humble and should he keep waiting for God to do everything?

The lost son was dead. He had to get up and go back to his dad.

Again you advocating salvation by what you do, obviously you dont believe its all done by God 100%

 

[brightfame52]

messy said

You never get saved if you refuse to do anything and wait on God to save you

Is salvation really "from the Lord," or is it partly from God and partly from man?

 

[Albion]

Again you advocating salvation by what you do, obviously you dont believe its all done by God 100%

"What you do" does not equal "works." Not in the theological sense of the term.

 

[brightfame52]

"What you do" does not equal "works." Not in the theological sense of the term.

Yes it does.

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 3:24 says it all !2

This Justification in Rom 3:24 God does bestow or impute or charge to, or reckon to, all for whom Christ died, and this without any demand whatsover on their persons, but solely on the Gift Imputed through the Work of Christ, or the Redemption that is in Him Rom 5:18b

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon[By Imputation or Reckoning] all men unto justification of life.

Also Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This being made Righteous is by imputation of what Christ has done, its charged to the Elect's Sinner Account, and God reckons him or her, because of or through Christ, as if they had done everything that the Law of God requires, so in actuality they are these Rom 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Thats because that Obedience that Christ rendered to God's Law, all that was required of the Law of God Matt 22:37-40

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


This has been charged to everyone Christ died for, as a Free Gift, even while they are unbelievers and enemies ! Thats because its all of Grace they have been freely Justified !

9

 

[brightfame52]

Justification of Life !

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Even so by the Righteousness OF ONE NOT TWO, BUT ONE, the Free Gift CAME UPON, not made available, not offered to, BUT CAME UPON all men to JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE !

Now we know the false antichrist followers tell us that this means all men without exception have Justification of Life, but thats a lie, the verse does not say that and surely cannot begin to mean that, those who believe that are wifully ignorant to what Justification of Life means, and what is meant by it coming upon all for whom it did come upon !

First the words came upon are not in the orginal but are translated from the preposition eis which means:

eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.

It denotes a result, that being the result of either, as in the case of the one offence of Adam the result being " judgment came upon all men to condemnation"

Folk that was the result and purpose of God in effect, and it had nothing to do with the all men to whom Judgment and Condemnation came upon doing anything, or not doing anything, their individual acts or non acts are irrelevant !

Now with the same line of reasoning Justification of Life came upon all men as a result of The Righteousness of ONE Jesus Christ, and it likewise had nothing to do with the all men to whom Justifcation came upon, their individual acts or non acts are not relevant to the result !

Now the result of the former , that is what came upon them was Judgment to condemnation :

And the result of the Latter, that is what came upon them was Justification of Life, which means:

acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution.

the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal

And this acquittal, pronouncing Righteous brings with it an added benefit which is Life !

Now, for Rom 5:18 to be taught as meaning all men without exception have come upon them Justification of Life, by the One Act of Righteousness of Jesus Christ is to say all men without exception are before God acquitted of all guilt and pronounced by Him as Righteous !

And we know that is not True because that would lead to the false teaching of Universalism and it would deny the fact that scripture teaches that some men are condemned already Jn 3:18 and are under God's Wrath Jn 3:36 with the promise of not seeing Life ! Which contradicts having had Justification of Life come upon them as those in Rom 5:18 did because of the Righteousness of One !

 

[brightfame52]

Justification of Life ! 2


This Justification of Life through the Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Divine Promise to Israel, God's Elect Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

The all men that Justification of Life came upon in Rom 5:18 are the All Men that constitute all the Seed of Israel [Christ] the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

There can be no Justification of Life unto anyone apart from the Divine Promise of Isa 45:25, if it is, its outside of the Lord Jesus Christ and therefore worthless !

Some may argue and say that Isa 45:25 is speaking only of ethnic jews, but its not, its speaking of both ethnic jews and ethnic Gentiles who are the Israel of God. See the Mystery has always been that elect Gentiles are also Israel, an Israel that has nothing to do with ethnicity ! It only had to be that they all belonged to a certain Seed , and not a physical seed !

 

[prism]

It may be worth noting, however, that the uber-Calvinists who believe in predestination overwhelmingly offer OLD Testament verses in support of their belief, which means that they are basing their conviction upon the situation of mankind PRIOR to the Incarnation and the Sacrificing of God himself on behalf of his creation--a series of events that changed everything.

I'm not even aware of OT passages verses that speak in terms of 'predestination', instead, I am aware of such as Eph 1 and Romans 8 and 9.
(maybe I'm just not uber enough )

 

[Messy]

I was interested to see if it's in the O.T. My goodness. It's an age old discussion.

PREDESTINATION - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Albion]

I was interested to see if it's in the O.T. My goodness. It's an age old discussion.

PREDESTINATION - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

Predestination may amount to an age-old discussion, but not the issue of "works" which we were discussing.

Simply thinking something, saying something, believing something, or moving some of one's body parts for some reason IS NOT "works" in the theological sense, yet many people mistakenly think that this is what it's all about.

Hence, they oppose doing almost anything that Christians normally do during a worship service, including taking the bread and wine, lifting one's arms, standing to sing, or listening to the sermon (!).

But those are not "good works" as some Christians insist that they are simply because some actions take a little effort, i.e. work!

They do not earn credit towards salvation, nor do millions of Christians who engage in such acts think that they do.

Some real examples of good works (whether or not anyone thinks that doing them earns some favor with God) would be feeding the homeless, visiting the sick and infirmed, welcoming refugees into one's home, or perhaps even something like going on a pilgrimage, which was a big thing in Medieval times but not seen in the same way nowadays.

 

[Messy]

Predestination may amount to an age-old discussion, but not the issue of "works" which we were discussing.

Simply thinking something, saying something, believing something, or moving some of one's body parts for some reason IS NOT "works" in the theological sense, yet many people mistakenly think that this is what it's all about.

Hence, they oppose doing almost anything that Christians normally do during a worship service, including taking the bread and wine, lifting one's arms, standing to sing, or listening to the sermon (!).

But those are not "good works" as some Christians insist that they are simply because some actions take a little effort, i.e. work!

They do not earn credit towards salvation, nor do millions of Christians who engage in such acts think that they do.

Some real examples of good works (whether or not anyone thinks that doing them earns some favor with God) would be feeding the homeless, visiting the sick and infirmed, welcoming refugees into one's home, or perhaps even something like going on a pilgrimage, which was a big thing in Medieval times but not seen in the same way nowadays.

Those real good works just show that someone is not completely depraved.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

But I thought this works thing was about keeping the law of Moses, because the Galatians were foolish to go back to that, those ceremonial laws, but now sometimes I hear christians say that keeping the 10 commandments is doing good works and the 10 commandments died on the cross. That makes zero sense. It's like saying: Don't go back under the law! Go steal, murder and have false gods!

 

[Albion]

Those real good works just show that someone is not completely depraved.

I'd put it another way and say that they are what Our Lord taught us to do.

Regardless of how one understands the matter of justification, salvation, and so forth, we as believers in Christ are directed to live lives of compassion, forgiveness, and love. The acts which further those aims are called "good works."

Some people think these works contribute to our chances of being saved, while others think that's not so, and it's Faith in Christ and that alone which brings eternal life. But Christians of all varieties know (or should know) that living the kind of life that the Savior taught his disciples to live is what we should do, just because it's right to do so.

But I thought this works thing was about keeping the law of Moses, because the Galatians were foolish to go back to that, those ceremonial laws, but now sometimes I hear christians say that keeping the 10 commandments is doing good works and the 10 commandments died on the cross. That makes zero sense. It's like saying: Don't go back under the law! Go steal, murder and have false gods!

I've tried to explain it above, but it's certainly NOT the case that keeping the Law or attempting to keep the Law is what is meant by "good works" or simply "works."

 

[prism]

I was interested to see if it's in the O.T. My goodness. It's an age old discussion.

PREDESTINATION - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

That's fine, but Albion's point was that 'uber Calvinists' resort often to the OT for their proof-texts on predestination. I was looking for some passages these so called Uber Calvinists use. I didn't see any biblical passages at all in that article, just Apocryphal type material.

 

[Albion]

That's fine, but Albion's point was that 'uber Calvinists' resort often to the OT for their proof-texts on predestination.

And that's correct. They do. However, my comment there was incidental to the main purpose for me to have written that post. The hope was that I could settle the meaning of "works" for those members who, up to that point, were still in doubt about that issue. See post 530 for example.