Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Joshua1Eight]

I think God does that

 

[brightfame52]

For God Justifieth the Ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This scripture is pretty plain, the sense of which tells us that God Justifies or is Justifying those who are in a state of the Ungodly. The word ungodly is the greek word Asebes and means:

destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

So in light of this, if we are Justified before God at all, it was before our believing, for scripture never calls a Believer Ungodly, so we would be Justified before we believe or are called believers as here Acts 5:14

And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women )

1 Tim 4:12

Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.


Yes, for as Reconciliation, we were reconciled to God , while yet being enemies or unbelievers, by the Death or Blood of God's Son Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So we were Justified and reconciled before God by the Death of God's Son, while being enemies or unbelievers, for how could we be one without the other ; that is Reconciled to God, before His Law and Justice, and yet not Justified before God"s Law and Justice by the same Death or Blood of Christ , while being enemies ?

For God doeth both Justifieth and Reconciles the Ungodly by the Blood of Christ, only false brethren deny this Truth ! 4

 

[Nazareth]

For God Justifieth the Ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This scripture is pretty plain, the sense of which tells us that God Justifies or is Justifying those who are in a state of the Ungodly. The word ungodly is the greek word Asebes and means:

destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

So in light of this, if we are Justified before God at all, it was before our believing, for scripture never calls a Believer Ungodly, so we would be Justified before we believe or are called believers as here Acts 5:14

And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women )

1 Tim 4:12

Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.


Yes, for as Reconciliation, we were reconciled to God , while yet being enemies or unbelievers, by the Death or Blood of God's Son Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So we were Justified and reconciled before God by the Death of God's Son, while being enemies or unbelievers, for how could we be one without the other ; that is Reconciled to God, before His Law and Justice, and yet not Justified before God"s Law and Justice by the same Death or Blood of Christ , while being enemies ?

For God doeth both Justifieth and Reconciles the Ungodly by the Blood of Christ, only false brethren deny this Truth ! 4

Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

 

[brightfame52]

Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

Okay, and your point ?

 

[atpollard]

yet most Bible-believing Christians and Christian churches are not Calvinistic.

I respectfully disagree since most ‘non-Calvinistic’ Christians border on biblically illiterate. ‘Free Will’ just feels right and it just makes sense to most that hold the view.

(Which is what makes Biblically Literate non-Calvinists so precious.)

Nobody embraces ‘Calvinism’ because it just gave them the warm-fuzzies. One must be convinced that it is true to accept so counter-intuitive a theology, and that convincing typically comes from the Word of God.

(Disclaimer: My name is Arthur and I am a Particular Baptist.)

 

[Albion]

I respectfully disagree since most ‘non-Calvinistic’ Christians border on biblically illiterate. ‘Free Will’ just feels right and it just makes sense to most that hold the view.

...meaning that you are taking exception to my use of the term "Bible-believing" in their case, not that they aren't Christian and not that they do constitute the majority of the Christian population.

So, in order to avoid further wrangling over which side might be correct about the nature and role of Faith, let's just say that the majority of the world's Christians are not people who imagine that Faith is incidental to salvation (as was the view offered by another member a few posts back). Okay?

Nobody embraces ‘Calvinism’ because it just gave them the warm-fuzzies.

Are you sure? Most Calvinists I've met seem to feel that they are among the Elect, but I cannot remember meeting even one member of a Reformed church who believes in Predestination and has concluded that he is one of those who has been selected by God to be sent to Hell.

 

[atpollard]

Are you sure? Most Calvinists I've met seem to feel that they are among the Elect, but I cannot remember meeting even one member of a Reformed church who believes in Predestination and has concluded that he is one of those who has been selected by God to be sent to Hell.

How many non-Calvinists have you met that expect to hear “I never knew you”?
(I don’t think that is a Calvinist/Arminian trait … just a human trait).

As an aside, when I was an unsaved nihilist, I viewed the existence of God as very unlikely … but if God did exist, I fully acknowledged that I belonged in hell with all of the beings that hated Him as much as I did. God’s depraved indifference towards His creation qualified as “evil” and every created being SHOULD oppose an evil Creator.

That made the day He showed up quite the memorable event. However, I was not “seeking” God when God sought me out and claimed me. [Road to Damascus style.]

 

[Albion]

As an aside, when I was an unsaved nihilist, I viewed the existence of God as very unlikely … but if God did exist, I fully acknowledged that I belonged in hell with all of the beings that hated Him as much as I did.

OKay so far.

God’s depraved indifference towards His creation qualified as “evil” and every created being SHOULD oppose an evil Creator.

If we are wrongdoers in the absence of God, why would it make God evil to give us what we deserve?

That made the day He showed up quite the memorable event. However, I was not “seeking” God when God sought me out and claimed me. [Road to Damascus style.]

Arthur, is this supposed to substantiate the theory of Calvinist predestination? It seems to me that it makes as much sense to say that the day you came to Faith you were saved by trusting in the One who paid the price for our sins on the Cross.

 

[atpollard]

Arthur, is this supposed to substantiate the theory of Calvinist predestination? It seems to me that it makes as much sense to say that the day you came to Faith you were saved by trusting in the One who paid the price for our sins on the Cross.

I deplored the idea of predestination. I thought the Wesleyan Arminianism taught so well at the Church of God of Anderson Indiana (founded by preachers that crossed the Great Plains in covered wagons preaching the Gospel to whomever would listen) made complete and perfect sense. The issue that I had was that it was completely contradictory to the empirical experience of my own salvation. So I invested years searching scripture for an explanation that agreed with my personal recollection of how I was saved (which involved no “preaching of the Gospel” or alter-call or decision to follow Jesus).

I eventually stumbled across 4 Biblical Truths* that agreed with my experience, but disagreed with the theology that I had been taught (as a new Christian and a former Atheist, Wesleyan Arminianism was the ONLY theology that I had been taught). Years later I discovered that those truths* had a name … Calvinism.

TU*IP … I had never bothered to consider the question of Atonement (Limited or General) since it was enough for me that Jesus had died for me and whoever else He died for was His business and not my business.

So I understand “Free Will” and “Wesleyan” and “Arminian” Theology, and I even appreciate the beauty of a lot of it. I just cannot, in good conscience, affirm it to be true. In truth, I am completely indifferent to whether you accept or reject either the “Doctrines of Grace” or “Predestination”. That is what appeals to me about the Baptists … the Baptist Distinctive that every man is obligated to obey Scripture and their conscience. So Baptists can fellowship together in the same congregation and completely disagree on Calvinism vs Arminianism.

I see no reason to deny that same “grace” to you.

I will admit that people that tell me “this is what Calvinists believe” and then get it wrong do annoy me more than I should allow them. [shrug] However, I am not your mother, conscience or God … what you believe is not my problem or business (God‘s arm is not short).


* In case anyone cares, the 4 Biblical Truths are:

1. People are no darn good.
2. God saves who He chooses … just because He wants to, not because we deserve it (see #1).
3. God does not try, God DOES … If God claims you, then you are His, period, end of story.
4. God finishes what He starts.

 

[atpollard]

If we are wrongdoers in the absence of God, why would it make God evil to give us what we deserve?

As a former atheist, there are some ‘arguments’ that I tread lightly around.
I can (and once did) make a strong case against God, but will not do so in public where it might cause harm to some casual reader struggling.

Send me a private message if you REALLY want to discuss this in private.

 

[Albion]

Hi again. I liked your posts.

Predestination came into this discussion almost accidentally, on account of something that someone here wrote which, however, didn't even use that word. Personally, I don't like debating the subject of Predestination and was only making mention of what that other post seemed to suggest. Nor does it bother me that some Christians ARE Predestinarians of some sort.

Some reasons for disliking debates about Predestination include these--

1. It is not a clear-cut POV. There are several different versions of the idea, even within the Reformed churches, and I'm not speaking only of the difference between single Predestination and double Predestination. And yet, people are apt to refer to all of them as Calvinistic.

2. The Free Will alternative isn't tidy, either. You mentioned Wesleyan thinking on the subject, but that can be (and often is) seen as an extreme kind of Free Will argument that the historic churches which subscribe to Freewill (Catholic, Orthodox Eastern, etc.) never held to and not all Methodists do either.

 

[brightfame52]

The Elect of God does not receive a knowledge or spiritual comfort of their Justification before God before Faith, however all of them in spite of their knowledge of it, are free from any condemnation and eternal vengeance that belongs to their sins, even before they become believers, for they all were accepted in the Beloved, and declared Righteous by the Father, because non of their sins had been imputed to them ! Eph 1:4-6, and they were totally absolved of any Punishment due them before they believed as after they believed, because the Redemption price had already been paid for their remission, all their sins had been born 1 Pet 2:24, The Soul of Christ had been Offered for them Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

So the Elect of God are born Children of wrath as others by nature, but with this difference, they are absolved from all obligation to do anything that gives to God the least satisfaction for their sins, this before he receives the knowledge of the remission of sins by Faith ! 4

 

[brightfame52]

The scripture is pretty clear about the fact that those Christ died for, even while they are enemies, that is even while they are in hostile unbelief, they have nevertheless been reconciled / justified to God, by His Death; Now that being the case, it is inconsistent with reconciliation, for any for whom Christ died, that even while they are enemies in unbelief, to yet be under the God's wrath and condemnation as per Jn 3:18,36

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That cannot apply to any Christ died for while in unbelief

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Thats impossible for the wrath of God to be abiding on anyone reconciled to God by the death of His Son, even while they believeth not !

 

[SetFree]

I don't see the difficulty the OP is having, because all one need do is just keep reading in that Romans 4 chapter after that 5th verse...

Rom 4:5-13
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him That justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, 'Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.'

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
KJV

Apostle Paul was clearly speaking about The Gospel of Jesus Christ and one's sins in remission through Faith on Jesus Christ. So I really don't see how that point can be missed IF... they simply keep reading there.

 

[brightfame52]

What is Justification ?

One writer wrote and I quote:

Justification is an act of God's Sovereign pleasure constituting persons Righteous in the Righteousness of Another and eternally promising to the Lord Redeemer, a discharge to them upon his engagement to perform Covenant conditions perfectly for them. This sovereign Will and Compact of God that unalterably fixes the end, fixes the means conducing thereunto; and this is one of the principal means, that they should of themselves lose their own personal righteousness in Adam their Head, so that they might be alone completely Righteous in the Righteousness of the Redeemer. So far as they are to be understood to have a Representative being in their Everlasting Head, so far as considered in Him they were never otherwise than righteous. Richard Davis {Vindication of the Doctrine of Justification and Union before Faith, 1698.}

Now Two Points of note here. That is all the conditions for Justification before God, hath been fulfilled by Christ, for each Person He knew and died for Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;[Why?] for he shall bear their iniquities.

It was also said of Old of Him to them I have given thee a Covenant unto the People/ Gentiles Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

This scripture passage informs us a Mystery, that some Gentiles were partakers of the Covenant's of Promise made to Israel Eph 2:11-12

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Which Blood is that of the New Covenant Matt 26:28

Isa 42:6 is such Covenant Promise to Israel

Also this Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant, known in time as the New Covenant.

Secondly ,It should not be ignored that the blessed effects of the Covenant, which Christ fulfilled, that these effects are made good to the Heirs of the Covenant, not for their sakes primarily, but for the sake of Him who fulfilled all the conditions of the Covenant, on their behalf, Christ ! For instance, forgiveness of all their sins [Justification] is for HIS SAKE as stated here 1 Jn 2:12

12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

This is a bullet to the head to all conditionalist, who falsely teach one is forgiven upon conditions, such as faith or repentance, that's not Truth, they are forgiven for His Names Sake. More scripture to confirm this point Eph 4:32

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

And since Christ is also God it reads Isa 43:25

25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Thats remission of sins also. Sins can never be charged to anyone Christ died for as a matter of condemnation, that is why forgiveness of sins is also a branch of Justification !

This should stop the mouth's of those false teachers who conditions forgiveness or Justification before God on the sake of men's performances, such as Faith or Repentance!

 

[brightfame52]

setfree

Apostle Paul was clearly speaking about The Gospel of Jesus Christ and one's sins in remission through Faith on Jesus Christ. So I really don't see how that point can be missed IF... they simply keep reading there.

My friend, reading isnt going to cut it if God doesnt give us understanding of what what we read. So what do you mean by ones remission is through faith on Jesus Christ ?

 

[SetFree]

setfree



My friend, reading isnt going to cut it if God doesnt give us understanding of what what we read. So what do you mean by ones remission is through faith on Jesus Christ ?

What do I mean by the remission of sins by Faith on Jesus Christ? You've got to be kidding, right?

You're not familiar with The Gospel Message that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the remission of the sins of those who believe? (Matthew 26:28; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:43; Romans 3:25)

And if one has a reading comprehension problem where they cannot read simple words that is in the simplicity of Bible Scripture, then they certainly won't be able to express theirself on a forum like this either.

So lack of reading comprehension I see as no excuse. God has provided His people the means in the western world for education enough to be able to read and study His Word. And that has been for centuries extended to the majority of nations too.

 

[brightfame52]

set free

What do I mean by the remission of sins by Faith on Jesus Christ? You've got to be kidding, right?

Its not a kidding matter my friend, get to explaining please !

You're not familiar with The Gospel Message that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the remission of the sins of those who believe? (Matthew 26:28; Acts 2:38; Acts 10:43; Romans 3:25)

I have read those verses, so do you want to explain your understanding of them since you bringing them up ?

And if one has a reading comprehension problem where they cannot read simple words that is in the simplicity of Bible Scripture, then they certainly won't be able to express theirself on a forum like this either.

Are you going explain your understanding of them or not ?

So lack of reading comprehension I see as no excuse. God has provided His people the means in the western world for education enough to be able to read and study His Word. And that has been for centuries extended to the majority of nations too.

All this talking is cheap friend, whats your understanding of all these verses you bringing up ?

 

[brightfame52]

The Difference !

There is a big difference in Justification before God by the Death of Christ, and Justification before our conscious by the Gift of Faith given in the New Birth. Yes even conscious Justification which brings purification and peace of heart or mind, however receiving those blessings are not Justification itself, that fact is purely and solely accomplished by the Work of Christ, His Blood, which took away our sins, before the Law and Justice of God ! His Blood cleanses us from all sin, whether we believe it or not or know it or not, that fact still remains and is credited solely to the Blood of Christ ! Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Notice Justification while being saved is future ! 4

 

[SetFree]

set free



Its not a kidding matter my friend, get to explaining please !



I have read those verses, so do you want to explain your understanding of them since you bringing them up ?


Are you going explain your understanding of them or not ?



All this talking is cheap friend, whats your understanding of all these verses you bringing up ?

I do not find your words as being serious, nor reliable. In order to come to this particular section of the Forum you had to declare that you are a Christian. And that means believing Bible Scripture about The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which I do... believe.

But your own words about that have placed what you believe in doubt. So the doubt lay on your shoulders, not mine, because I don't just 'read' those Scriptures I quoted, I believe them.