Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[DanielL]

In rom 4:5 Paul wants us to believe in someone who "justifies the ungodly", i was just wondering who that is, exactly?

 

[Lamb]

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The above translation clearly says it's God who justifies the ungodly.

 

[DanielL]

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The above translation clearly says it's God who justifies the ungodly.

I understand some translations say it's God, but the greek only uses a pronoun, not the actual word for God. And the reason why I'm asking is because we know from Scripture, that God doesn't justify the ungodly, ever.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

We know it's not the God of Israel, because He is NOT an abomination, which is why I'm asking, who is it then?

 

[Albion]

There is in fact no doubt whatsoever that it's God who is referred to in Romans 4:5.

Moreover, it remains the same even if we compare the various Bible translations.

 

[NathanH83]

I understand some translations say it's God, but the greek only uses a pronoun, not the actual word for God. And the reason why I'm asking is because we know from Scripture, that God doesn't justify the ungodly, ever.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

We know it's not the God of Israel, because He is NOT an abomination, which is why I'm asking, who is it then?

Did you read the previous chapter?

”Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.”
-Romans 3:28-30 (NKJV)


Maybe try reading the previous chapter to help understand the next one.

 

[Lamb]

I understand some translations say it's God, but the greek only uses a pronoun, not the actual word for God. And the reason why I'm asking is because we know from Scripture, that God doesn't justify the ungodly, ever.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

We know it's not the God of Israel, because He is NOT an abomination, which is why I'm asking, who is it then?

All of us, except for our triune God is ungodly. So here's how that scripture fits... God makes US godly when we are covered by the results of the cross and believe it. It's about Jesus, His death and resurrection. In baptism we are clothed in Jesus and our sins forgiven, so that when God looks at us, He sees His Son with whom He's well pleased. That's how the scripture is not wrong that God justifies the ungodly, because only HE can turn us godly and we thank Him for His redemption.

 

[Lees]

In rom 4:5 Paul wants us to believe in someone who "justifies the ungodly", i was just wondering who that is, exactly?

No, God wants us to believe that He justifes the ungodly.

I am wondering if you consider the book of (Romans) as the Word of God?

And, you claim to be Christian...correct? Which means you must be one of the ungodly ones. Correct?

So, were you? Are you?

Lees

 

[DanielL]

All of us, except for our triune God is ungodly

I understand all of us, except God, have sinned in the past, but not all of us are ungodly in the present, some of us repented of our sins. Also, you will find Jesus speaking about a "good man" in one of His parables, which according to you shouldn't exist, and also the "righteous" of His right hand, proving there are in fact some godly people.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

God justifies the ungodly

You had said God makes them godly, so why would you then say God justifies the ungodly? Since they were made godly, it would be more accurate to say God justifies the godly. And remember, everytime you say God justifies the ungodly, you call Him an abomination, as per Proverbs 17:15. Which is why God justifying the ungodly is not an option, because He cannot lie, He cannot say the wicked are righteous when they are not. He can only say that to the righteous, because the righteous are righteous indeed.

Proverbs 24:24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou are righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:

 

[Lamb]

I understand all of us, except God, have sinned in the past, but not all of us are ungodly in the present, some of us repented of our sins. Also, you will find Jesus speaking about a "good man" in one of His parables, which according to you shouldn't exist, and also the "righteous" of His right hand, proving there are in fact some godly people.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

You had said God makes them godly, so why would you then say God justifies the ungodly? Since they were made godly, it would be more accurate to say God justifies the godly. And remember, everytime you say God justifies the ungodly, you call Him an abomination, as per Proverbs 17:15. Which is why God justifying the ungodly is not an option, because He cannot lie, He cannot say the wicked are righteous when they are not. He can only say that to the righteous, because the righteous are righteous indeed.

Proverbs 24:24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou are righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:

You continue to sin. I continue to sin. We live in sinful bodies and each of us continue to sin. So we are at the same time saint and sinner. Saint because of belief in Jesus and sinner because we sin daily.

 

[DanielL]

You continue to sin. I continue to sin. We live in sinful bodies and each of us continue to sin. So we are at the same time saint and sinner. Saint because of belief in Jesus and sinner because we sin daily.

Yes, they may sin, however you still can't call them sinners:

Ezekiel 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

The bible clearly distinguishes the righteous from the wicked as opposites, and in Ezekiel is at repentance that the wicked becomes righteous, and after repentance you are not allowed to mention any of his sins unto him. That means no longer call them by their sins, no longer call them sinners or ungodly.

Anyways i hope you realized God will not justify the wicked, that was why i started the thread, i still want to know who does?

 

[Lanman87]

Yes, they may sin, however you still can't call them sinners:

Ezekiel 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

The bible clearly distinguishes the righteous from the wicked as opposites, and in Ezekiel is at repentance that the wicked becomes righteous, and after repentance you are not allowed to mention any of his sins unto him. That means no longer call them by their sins, no longer call them sinners or ungodly.

Anyways i hope you realized God will not justify the wicked, that was why i started the thread, i still want to know who does?

Were you ever ungodly? If so, how were you justified?

 

[Lamb]

Yes, they may sin, however you still can't call them sinners:

Ezekiel 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

The bible clearly distinguishes the righteous from the wicked as opposites, and in Ezekiel is at repentance that the wicked becomes righteous, and after repentance you are not allowed to mention any of his sins unto him. That means no longer call them by their sins, no longer call them sinners or ungodly.

Anyways i hope you realized God will not justify the wicked, that was why i started the thread, i still want to know who does?

If you were godly...you wouldn't need Jesus as Savior. Only God can justify.

 

[DanielL]

If you were godly...you wouldn't need Jesus as Savior. Only God can justify.

You do need Him for multiple reasons, you need His Knowledge, which is what justifies according to Isaiah 53:11. You need Him to take you to heaven because no one ascended to heaven, only the One who descended from heaven. And many more things had to be done by Him, He had to rebuke the pharisees who were preventing people from entering into life, for example, He had to teach righteousness, He had to be lifted up on the cross, and so on.

Anyways, it won't make Him justify the ungodly, that is not an option, nor does any of this answer my question..

 

[NathanH83]

I understand some translations say it's God, but the greek only uses a pronoun, not the actual word for God. And the reason why I'm asking is because we know from Scripture, that God doesn't justify the ungodly, ever.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

We know it's not the God of Israel, because He is NOT an abomination, which is why I'm asking, who is it then?

You know, you’ve really misunderstood this.

Proverbs is talking about people who justify the ungodly by saying that an ungodly person didn’t really sin. Like, ignoring their sin and pretending it’s all OK, when it’s not.

But Romans is saying that God justifies the ungodly by forgiving those who have acknowledged their sin and repented of it.

Certainly you should be able to see the difference. It’s pretty blatantly obvious to me.

 

[DanielL]

God cannot lie. Re-read Exodus 23:7; Proverbs 17:15; and Proverbs 24:24.


God justifies the godly, after they repent, Acts 3:19.

 

[Lamb]

God cannot lie. Re-read Exodus 23:7; Proverbs 17:15; and Proverbs 24:24.


God justifies the godly, after they repent, Acts 3:19.

WHO is godly?

 

[DanielL]

WHO is godly?

Anyone who believes in Him, the righteous of His Right Hand, the saints who wear fine linen at His wedding, those who confess, repent and forsake their sins. All the righteous blood from Abel to Zachariah. The undefilled in the Way:

Psalm 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

 

[Lamb]

Anyone who believes in Him, the righteous of His Right Hand, the saints who wear fine linen at His wedding, those who confess, repent and forsake their sins. All the righteous blood from Abel to Zachariah. The undefilled in the Way:

Psalm 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Lees]

God cannot lie. Re-read Exodus 23:7; Proverbs 17:15; and Proverbs 24:24.


God justifies the godly, after they repent, Acts 3:19.

And yet you call God a liar. God said in (Rom. 4:5) that He justifies the ungodly. You claim He is lying. You claim He can only justify the 'godly' after they repent.

That is the most blasphemous statement I have heard in a long time.

(Rom. 4:5) "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"

You don't just disbelieve the 'justifieth the ungodly' part of this verse. You disbelieve the whole verse.

It's not God that is lying. It's you. Back up to (Rom. 3:4) "...let God be true but everyman a liar...."

I asked you before, and you ignored, do you believe the book of (Romans) is the Word of God?

Lees

 

[DanielL]

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Right they can't speak of themselves, because there are people who have no sin, for example those who are cleansed from all unrighteousness. I mean the same John tells you that in the very next verse doesn't he? You can't make a doctrine out of only one verse.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So, assuming you believe Scripture, you would believe He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, not just some, you would know that these people who are cleansed have no sin in them, since they were cleansed from all unrighteousness, not just some.

And none of their sins shall be mentioned unto them, that is Ezekiel 33:16. Which means they are both righteous and without sin. John was merely speaking to the ungodly, before they confess, not to the righteous after they were cleansed from all sin. In context John says that if the ungodly say they have no sin [to cleanse] they deceive themselves, for all have sinned [in the past].

Because the same John will also tell you:

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

So, we see that according to John, sin is only found in those who have not seen Him, neither known Him, not in those who abide in Him. And also John testifies of the existence of the righteous in verse 7.

And this is from John only, we find both the righteous and the sinless, they are the same, cleansed from all unrighteousness. Because you will find them also in the Psalm 119:3 which you haven't commented on, the Words of Jesus who testify of the existence of the righteous which is more than enough to prove they exist, saying they don't is to speak against Christ.

And a reminder that God will not justify the ungodly because He cannot lie. He will justify the righteous, because the righteous is righteous indeed.