Who did the Reformers identify as the antichrist?

[hobie]

I like the part where the guy goes: The papacy's been around for centuries-it was only supposed to last for 3 1/2 years according to the antichrist's reign during the tribulation of Revelation.

Look up 'prophetic years' which in prophecy hold to the day=year principle..

 

[jswauto]

Look up 'prophetic years' which in prophecy hold to the day=year principle..

It was a humorous, anecdotal response to the papacy lasting through the centuries, while the tribulation only lasts 3 1/2 years. But you know that. The point you're making is? Could you explain it better?

Is this what you're referring to:

Prophetic Timeline & Analysis​

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[SetFree]

1. See 'vicar of Christ'...
2. Pope has state, so temporal kingdom, see 'Vatican'..
3. Not scriptural...
4. Look up 'Third Temple' they want to make and we shall see if the bishop of Rome shows...

A vicar is not... The Christ.

The pope shall not... be king of the whole earth, which is the requirement of Bible prophecy about Christ Jesus.

No. 3 most definitely IS... Scriptural. You're saying it is not is propaganda against God's Word. The Office of MESSIAH requires... that He be born of the king tribe (Judah) of the house of David. That dumps ANY idea that it could be a Catholic pope.

The deceived Jews in Jerusalem are prepared to build their 3rd temple for the coming of MESSIAH, not the office of a pope.

All you are doing is pushing the propaganda of the failed old reformer's doctrines of 16th century Europe, just because of hatred against the Catholic Church.

 

[Maranatha]

Thank you hobie for pointing out what the Reformers believed.
But in the last hundred or two hundred years a lot of new ideas have appeared.
Tons of new books and podcasts about Endtimes are available now.

One thing is sure, those Reformers that you mentioned read and knew the BIBLE.
They didn't just read books about the topic.
Plus they went out and preached the Gospel and advanced God's Kingdom.
We saw mighty genuine Revivals and Awakenings
I have confidence in those Reformers and the old school teachings and preachings.

But I have no confidence in most of the modern teachings.

 

[hobie]

It was a humorous, anecdotal response to the papacy lasting through the centuries, while the tribulation only lasts 3 1/2 years. But you know that. The point you're making is? Could you explain it better?

Well, lets look closely at what prophetic years are, and understand the prophetic time periods to be found in scripture, the time, times and half a time, 1260, 42 months, which is mentioned in Daniel and Revelation:

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

If we look back to Daniel we see the word 'time' in this context refers to a period of a year. In the story of King Nebuchadnezzar, he went crazy for seven years and ate grass as an ox as seen in Daniel 4:32:

Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

So in prophetic reading we see the days equal years, so lets look how many days are in a time, times and half a time, it means time (or 1 year), times (or 2 years) and half a time (or 1/2 year) or a total of 3 1/2 years. Most people who look at it would stop at this point and accept the 3 1/2 years only at face value. But these are prophetic years so the day year principle applies, so each day is a year and 3 1/2 years would be 3 1/2 times a Jewish year of 360 days (360 x 3.5= 1260) so comes out to 1260 days, and a prophetic day equals a year so using the same key of methodology we calculate it to actually represent 1260 literal years. So, Time, Times and half a Time in prophecy is really 1260 years! To confirm this formula we need only to look at the book of Revelation.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here the woman represents the faithful church, who flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. Again using the day=year formula, this actually speaks of 1260 years that the church would be persecuted. Now look at verse 14:

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Here the exact same time of persecution is referred to as 3 1/2 times, with the meaning the same period of 1260 days/years as found in verse 6. In the book of Daniel, we saw this exact same period of persecution in church history:

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This verse in context is referring to a period of time that the little horn or Antichrist power will persecute the true believers or true church, again for 1260 years. The same is true for the time given "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half" for Daniel 12:7

So why is it not a year equal to 365 days as we hold today? Well in ancient times the year was held to be at 360 days. The fact that the prophets understood a year as 360 days is well attested, and can be seen in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation as seen in the use of "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months". These references represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5). Divide 1,260 days by 42 months and you will get a 30-day month, as 12 months of 30 days equals 360-days in a year

These time periods occur eight times in scripture:
Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
Daniel 9:27, "half one set of seven".
Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

The "1,260 days" which one can see are 1260 years, spanned the Middle Ages and historicists throughout history have identified the "1,260 days" as being fulfilled by rise of the Papacy and its temporal power being taken, from 538 AD to 1798, or Napoleon's Roman Republic.
So looking at the "two thousand and three hundred days", we can see it is prophetic time and understand the prophecy and time it refers to.

 

[hobie]

A vicar is not... The Christ.

The pope shall not... be king of the whole earth, which is the requirement of Bible prophecy about Christ Jesus.

No. 3 most definitely IS... Scriptural. You're saying it is not is propaganda against God's Word. The Office of MESSIAH requires... that He be born of the king tribe (Judah) of the house of David. That dumps ANY idea that it could be a Catholic pope.

The deceived Jews in Jerusalem are prepared to build their 3rd temple for the coming of MESSIAH, not the office of a pope.

All you are doing is pushing the propaganda of the failed old reformer's doctrines of 16th century Europe, just because of hatred against the Catholic Church.

Lets see what the Pope claims...

In his encyclical, "The Reunion of Christendom" (1885), Pope Leo XIII stated that the pope holds "upon this earth the place of God Almighty."

In the Catechism, can be found the following: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the pope has supreme and full power in faith and morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by one, God himself on earth." and also "The Pope can make and unmake laws for the entire Church; his authority is supreme and unquestioned. Every bishop, every priest, every member of the Church is subject to him."

Here are some others…"The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh." (Evangelical Christendom, January 1, 1895, pg. 15, published in London by J. S. Phillips)

"Against this background of love towards Holy Church, 'the pillar and bulwark of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for 'THE LORD POPE', the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called 'SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH'." (Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation on the Consecrated Life and Its Mission in the Church and in the World, to the bishops and clergy, religious orders and congregations, societies of apostolic life, secular institutes, and all the faithful, given in Rome, at Saint Peter's, March 25, 1996)

"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God and the vicar of God." (Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary)

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." (On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17)

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous)

"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (the Gloss "Extravagantes" o.f Pope John XXII *** inter, Tit. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions." (Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', p.26)

"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958)

"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate." (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653)

He calls himself the Supreme ruler of heaven and earth, the Supreme Pontiff, the Holy Father, which belong only to God and "God himself on earth". No such terms were given to a mere man anywhere in scripture and the term "Holy Father" is used only by Jesus in John 17:11 as He prayed to God the Father. For a sinful man to assume the authority and titles which belong only to God, seems the height of blasphemy.

So the Pope has laid claim to take the place of God with infallible authority and we find the Council of Trent declared: "Sitting in that chair in which Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, sat to the close of life, the Catholic Church recognizes in his person the most exalted degree of dignity, and the full jurisdiction not based on constitutions, but emanating from no less authority than from God Himself. As the Successor of St. Peter and the true and legitimate Vicar of Jesus Christ, he therefore, presides over the Universal Church, the Father and Governor of all the faithful, of Bishops, also and of all other prelates, be their station, rant, or power, what they may be."

So its not just the Pope, the councils have also laid claim that the Pope holds of himself what can only be termed as "God on Earth".

 

[hobie]

Thank you hobie for pointing out what the Reformers believed.
But in the last hundred or two hundred years a lot of new ideas have appeared.
Tons of new books and podcasts about Endtimes are available now.

One thing is sure, those Reformers that you mentioned read and knew the BIBLE.
They didn't just read books about the topic.
Plus they went out and preached the Gospel and advanced God's Kingdom.
We saw mighty genuine Revivals and Awakenings
I have confidence in those Reformers and the old school teachings and preachings.

But I have no confidence in most of the modern teachings.

Well one thing also, God and His truth never changes.

 

[SetFree]

Lets see what the Pope claims...

In his encyclical, "The Reunion of Christendom" (1885), Pope Leo XIII stated that the pope holds "upon this earth the place of God Almighty."

In the Catechism, can be found the following: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the pope has supreme and full power in faith and morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by one, God himself on earth." and also "The Pope can make and unmake laws for the entire Church; his authority is supreme and unquestioned. Every bishop, every priest, every member of the Church is subject to him."

Here are some others…"The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh." (Evangelical Christendom, January 1, 1895, pg. 15, published in London by J. S. Phillips)

"Against this background of love towards Holy Church, 'the pillar and bulwark of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for 'THE LORD POPE', the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called 'SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH'." (Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation on the Consecrated Life and Its Mission in the Church and in the World, to the bishops and clergy, religious orders and congregations, societies of apostolic life, secular institutes, and all the faithful, given in Rome, at Saint Peter's, March 25, 1996)

"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God and the vicar of God." (Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary)

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." (On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17)

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous)

"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (the Gloss "Extravagantes" o.f Pope John XXII *** inter, Tit. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions." (Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', p.26)

"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958)

"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate." (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653)

He calls himself the Supreme ruler of heaven and earth, the Supreme Pontiff, the Holy Father, which belong only to God and "God himself on earth". No such terms were given to a mere man anywhere in scripture and the term "Holy Father" is used only by Jesus in John 17:11 as He prayed to God the Father. For a sinful man to assume the authority and titles which belong only to God, seems the height of blasphemy.

So the Pope has laid claim to take the place of God with infallible authority and we find the Council of Trent declared: "Sitting in that chair in which Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, sat to the close of life, the Catholic Church recognizes in his person the most exalted degree of dignity, and the full jurisdiction not based on constitutions, but emanating from no less authority than from God Himself. As the Successor of St. Peter and the true and legitimate Vicar of Jesus Christ, he therefore, presides over the Universal Church, the Father and Governor of all the faithful, of Bishops, also and of all other prelates, be their station, rant, or power, what they may be."

So its not just the Pope, the councils have also laid claim that the Pope holds of himself what can only be termed as "God on Earth".

All that post is for naught.

The pope can dress in red flannel underwear, wield a pitchfork and a goatee, and it still won't make him the coming false-Messiah that is to appear as a KING in Jerusalem.

You've let the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" fool you. They are the ones using those old failed Reformer's doctrines today. Those false Jews were involved in bringing back the Occult Black Arts from the middle east, being within groups like the Knights Templar, etc. The Catholic pope banned them, and had their head leader Jacques de Molay executed. To this day the Masonic Lodge puts Molay up on a pinnacle, and has its young boy branch of the Lodge named after Molay. Thus the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" who serve the devil push propaganda against the pope and the Catholic Church, even though the RCC does have doctrinal problems.

 

[hobie]

Yet who is the world seeing up front as the religious leader, the Pope is seen as the global Christian leader, check the news.

 

[jswauto]

Well, lets look closely

Is this what you're referring to?

Concise Takeaway​

The biggest weakness in the traditional 1260‑year Historicist outline is not the timeline itself — it’s the interpretive jump that turns large, complex, deeply Christian institutions into the symbolic villains of Revelation. Historically, the evidence is mixed; theologically, the method is inconsistent; and ethically, it risks demonizing millions of sincere believers.

The Timeline Itself Isn’t the Main Problem​

Even critics admit:

• The day‑year principle has internal logic.
• The 538 → 1798 framework is coherent within the system.
• The Reformers genuinely believed it.

The critique is not that the math is irrational — it’s that the identification is.

The Core Problem: “Evil System = Christian Institution”​

Historicists assign:

• The Little Horn
• The Sea Beast
• The Antichrist system
• The Harlot of Babylon

…to institutions that:

• preserved Scripture
• defended the Trinity
• evangelized the world
• produced saints, martyrs, theologians, hospitals, universities
• shaped Christian civilization

This creates a massive theological contradiction:

How can the Holy Spirit sustain, empower, and bear fruit through an institution that is simultaneously the central demonic antagonist of Revelation?

Historicism never resolves this tension.

The Reformers’ Context Skewed Their Interpretation​

Luther, Calvin, Knox, and others were:

• persecuted by Rome
• excommunicated
• politically threatened
• reacting to real abuses

Their identification of the Papacy as Antichrist was:

• contextual, not timeless
• polemical, not exegetical
• reactionary, not neutral

Even Protestant historians acknowledge this.
If the Reformers had lived under:

• Islamic caliphates
• Soviet atheism
• French Revolution terror
• Nazi Germany

…their Antichrist candidate would have been different.

Revelation’s Symbols Don’t Fit Cleanly​

When you test the symbols strictly from the text, the match becomes strained.

Examples:​

• The Beast is blasphemous, but the institutions in question defend the deity of Christ.
• The Beast makes war on the saints, but these institutions also produced saints.
• The Harlot is drunk with the blood of the saints, but so were pagan Rome, Islam, and secular regimes.
• The Beast is global, but medieval papal authority was regional and inconsistent.

Historicists often selectively apply symbols to make the fit work.

Concise Takeaway​

If the USA was founded as a Christian covenant nation, built explicitly on biblical principles, dedicated to God, and historically one of the greatest engines of global evangelism, then calling it the “False Prophet” of Revelation is not just weak — it is theologically incoherent.

The symbol simply does not fit the reality.

A Covenant Nation Cannot Simultaneously Be a Demonic Mouthpiece​

Historicists argue:

• America was founded on Christian covenants
• America was blessed because of those covenants
• America spread Christianity globally
• America defended religious liberty
• America protected Israel
• America sent more missionaries than any nation in history

But then they claim:

This same nation is the False Prophet — the demonic propaganda arm of the Antichrist.

That is a category contradiction.
Biblically:

• God does not raise a covenant nation to be the mouthpiece of Satan.
• God does not bless a nation for 250 years only to reveal it was secretly the False Prophet all along.
• God does not use a demonic system to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth.

The Historicist model cannot reconcile this.

The USA’s Founding Documents Explicitly Invoke God​

Unlike pagan Rome, Babylon, or future antichrist systems, the USA’s founding:

• invokes Divine Providence
• grounds rights in the Creator
• assumes biblical morality
• protects Christian worship
• rejects state idolatry

This is the opposite of the False Prophet, who:

• deceives the world
• promotes idolatry
• enforces worship of the Beast
• performs false signs

The USA’s founding is anti‑Beast, not pro‑Beast.

The USA Has Been the Greatest Missionary Nation in History​

No other nation has:

• sent more missionaries
• funded more Bible translations
• built more churches abroad
• broadcast more Christian teaching
• defended persecuted Christians globally

The False Prophet in Revelation:

• deceives the nations
• promotes false worship
• leads people away from Christ

The USA has done the opposite.
This is not a match — it is a reversal.

The USA Has Historically Protected Israel, Not Opposed It​

Revelation’s False Prophet:

• supports the Beast
• opposes God’s people
• participates in global deception

But the USA:

• was the first nation to recognize Israel in 1948
• has been Israel’s strongest ally
• has defended Israel in the UN
• has provided military, economic, and diplomatic support
• has protected Jewish communities worldwide

This is not the behavior of a prophetic enemy of God.

Concise Takeaway​

Adventists do not teach that they are the False Prophet. But by identifying the USA — a nation they themselves are deeply rooted in, shaped by, and historically blessed through — as the False Prophet, they create a theological boomerang:

If the USA is the False Prophet, then the Adventist movement — born in the USA, shaped by the USA, protected by the USA, and spread by the USA — is indirectly calling its own birthplace and covenant environment a demonic prophetic deceiver.

This creates a contradiction that Historicism cannot resolve. They attack not only themselves, their country, but the LORD himself!

 

[jswauto]

test

 

[jswauto]

ENDTIME TIMELINE​

1. Early Tribulation (Day 1–1,260)​

• Antichrist Rises — Dan 7:7–8; 9:27
• Two Witnesses Begin 1,260 Days — Rev 11:3–6
• 144,000 Sealed — Rev 7:1–8
• Deadly Wound Healed — Rev 13:3

1. The rise of the Antichrist begins not with chaos, but with admiration. Daniel describes a “little horn” emerging among ten kings, uprooting three, and rising to prominence through charisma, diplomacy, and deceptive brilliance. This figure does not seize power by brute force at first; he ascends through intrigue, policy, and global appeal. His emergence marks the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week, the final seven‑year period before the return of Christ.
2. The Antichrist’s authority is rooted in human desire for stability. After global upheaval—economic, political, or military—people long for a unifying leader. Scripture shows that he “confirms a covenant with many,” suggesting a peace agreement or geopolitical pact that stabilizes the world. This is why his rise is welcomed rather than resisted.
3. Daniel emphasizes his intellectual superiority. He is described as having “a mouth speaking great things,” meaning persuasive rhetoric, visionary leadership, and the ability to articulate solutions that captivate nations. His words become his weapon long before his armies do.
4. Spiritually, his rise is energized by the dragon—Satan—who gives him power, throne, and authority. This is the counterfeit of the Father empowering the Son. The Antichrist becomes the embodiment of human rebellion fused with demonic empowerment.
5. His early reign is marked by global admiration. Revelation says, “Who is like the beast? Who can make war with him?” This rhetorical question reveals the world’s awe. They see him as unstoppable, inevitable, and even messianic.
6. Yet beneath the surface lies blasphemy. He speaks against God, against heaven, and against all that is holy. His rise is not merely political; it is theological. He positions himself as the center of human hope, displacing God in the hearts of nations.
7. The Antichrist’s ascent sets the stage for the entire Tribulation timeline. His covenant marks day one. His deception sets the tone. His ambition drives the events that follow. And his eventual betrayal of that covenant at the midpoint triggers the Great Tribulation.

2. Midpoint (Day 1,260)​

• Abomination of Desolation — Dan 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:4
• Mark of the Beast — Rev 13:16–18

3. Great Tribulation (Day 1,260–2,520)​

• Three Angel Warnings — Rev 14:6–11
• Trumpets 1–6— Rev 8–9

4. End of the Tribulation (Day 2,520)​

Two Witnesses Killed → Resurrected → Ascend​

• Rev 11:7–12

7th Trumpet = Rapture / Resurrection / Day of the Lord​

• Rev 11:15–18
• 1 Cor 15:52
• 1 Thess 4:16–17

5. Post‑Trib Extensions (Daniel 12)​

45 Days — Bowls + Marriage Supper​

• Bowls of Wrath — Rev 16
• Marriage Supper of the Lamb — Rev 19:7–9 (Labeled clearly as “45 Days”)

30 Days — Armageddon​

• Gathering to Armageddon — Rev 16:12–16
• Return of Jesus — Rev 19:11–16
• Battle of Armageddon — Rev 19:19–21
• Satan Bound — Rev 20:1–3 (Labeled clearly as “30 Days”)