Who did the Reformers identify as the antichrist?

[hobie]

I like the part where the guy goes: The papacy's been around for centuries-it was only supposed to last for 3 1/2 years according to the antichrist's reign during the tribulation of Revelation.

Look up 'prophetic years' which in prophecy hold to the day=year principle..

 

[jswauto]

Look up 'prophetic years' which in prophecy hold to the day=year principle..

It was a humorous, anecdotal response to the papacy lasting through the centuries, while the tribulation only lasts 3 1/2 years. But you know that. The point you're making is? Could you explain it better?

 

[SetFree]

1. See 'vicar of Christ'...
2. Pope has state, so temporal kingdom, see 'Vatican'..
3. Not scriptural...
4. Look up 'Third Temple' they want to make and we shall see if the bishop of Rome shows...

A vicar is not... The Christ.

The pope shall not... be king of the whole earth, which is the requirement of Bible prophecy about Christ Jesus.

No. 3 most definitely IS... Scriptural. You're saying it is not is propaganda against God's Word. The Office of MESSIAH requires... that He be born of the king tribe (Judah) of the house of David. That dumps ANY idea that it could be a Catholic pope.

The deceived Jews in Jerusalem are prepared to build their 3rd temple for the coming of MESSIAH, not the office of a pope.

All you are doing is pushing the propaganda of the failed old reformer's doctrines of 16th century Europe, just because of hatred against the Catholic Church.

 

[Maranatha]

Thank you hobie for pointing out what the Reformers believed.
But in the last hundred or two hundred years a lot of new ideas have appeared.
Tons of new books and podcasts about Endtimes are available now.

One thing is sure, those Reformers that you mentioned read and knew the BIBLE.
They didn't just read books about the topic.
Plus they went out and preached the Gospel and advanced God's Kingdom.
We saw mighty genuine Revivals and Awakenings
I have confidence in those Reformers and the old school teachings and preachings.

But I have no confidence in most of the modern teachings.

 

[hobie]

It was a humorous, anecdotal response to the papacy lasting through the centuries, while the tribulation only lasts 3 1/2 years. But you know that. The point you're making is? Could you explain it better?

Well, lets look closely at what prophetic years are, and understand the prophetic time periods to be found in scripture, the time, times and half a time, 1260, 42 months, which is mentioned in Daniel and Revelation:

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

If we look back to Daniel we see the word 'time' in this context refers to a period of a year. In the story of King Nebuchadnezzar, he went crazy for seven years and ate grass as an ox as seen in Daniel 4:32:

Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

So in prophetic reading we see the days equal years, so lets look how many days are in a time, times and half a time, it means time (or 1 year), times (or 2 years) and half a time (or 1/2 year) or a total of 3 1/2 years. Most people who look at it would stop at this point and accept the 3 1/2 years only at face value. But these are prophetic years so the day year principle applies, so each day is a year and 3 1/2 years would be 3 1/2 times a Jewish year of 360 days (360 x 3.5= 1260) so comes out to 1260 days, and a prophetic day equals a year so using the same key of methodology we calculate it to actually represent 1260 literal years. So, Time, Times and half a Time in prophecy is really 1260 years! To confirm this formula we need only to look at the book of Revelation.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here the woman represents the faithful church, who flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. Again using the day=year formula, this actually speaks of 1260 years that the church would be persecuted. Now look at verse 14:

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Here the exact same time of persecution is referred to as 3 1/2 times, with the meaning the same period of 1260 days/years as found in verse 6. In the book of Daniel, we saw this exact same period of persecution in church history:

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

This verse in context is referring to a period of time that the little horn or Antichrist power will persecute the true believers or true church, again for 1260 years. The same is true for the time given "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half" for Daniel 12:7

So why is it not a year equal to 365 days as we hold today? Well in ancient times the year was held to be at 360 days. The fact that the prophets understood a year as 360 days is well attested, and can be seen in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation as seen in the use of "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months". These references represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5). Divide 1,260 days by 42 months and you will get a 30-day month, as 12 months of 30 days equals 360-days in a year

These time periods occur eight times in scripture:
Daniel 7:25, "time, times and a half".
Daniel 9:27, "half one set of seven".
Daniel 12:7, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 11:2, "42 months".
Revelation 11:3, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:6, "1260 days".
Revelation 12:14, "time, times and a half".
Revelation 13:5, "42 months".

The "1,260 days" which one can see are 1260 years, spanned the Middle Ages and historicists throughout history have identified the "1,260 days" as being fulfilled by rise of the Papacy and its temporal power being taken, from 538 AD to 1798, or Napoleon's Roman Republic.
So looking at the "two thousand and three hundred days", we can see it is prophetic time and understand the prophecy and time it refers to.

 

[hobie]

A vicar is not... The Christ.

The pope shall not... be king of the whole earth, which is the requirement of Bible prophecy about Christ Jesus.

No. 3 most definitely IS... Scriptural. You're saying it is not is propaganda against God's Word. The Office of MESSIAH requires... that He be born of the king tribe (Judah) of the house of David. That dumps ANY idea that it could be a Catholic pope.

The deceived Jews in Jerusalem are prepared to build their 3rd temple for the coming of MESSIAH, not the office of a pope.

All you are doing is pushing the propaganda of the failed old reformer's doctrines of 16th century Europe, just because of hatred against the Catholic Church.

Lets see what the Pope claims...

In his encyclical, "The Reunion of Christendom" (1885), Pope Leo XIII stated that the pope holds "upon this earth the place of God Almighty."

In the Catechism, can be found the following: "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the pope has supreme and full power in faith and morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by one, God himself on earth." and also "The Pope can make and unmake laws for the entire Church; his authority is supreme and unquestioned. Every bishop, every priest, every member of the Church is subject to him."

Here are some others…"The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh." (Evangelical Christendom, January 1, 1895, pg. 15, published in London by J. S. Phillips)

"Against this background of love towards Holy Church, 'the pillar and bulwark of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for 'THE LORD POPE', the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called 'SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH'." (Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation on the Consecrated Life and Its Mission in the Church and in the World, to the bishops and clergy, religious orders and congregations, societies of apostolic life, secular institutes, and all the faithful, given in Rome, at Saint Peter's, March 25, 1996)

"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God and the vicar of God." (Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary)

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." (On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17)

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous)

"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (the Gloss "Extravagantes" o.f Pope John XXII *** inter, Tit. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions." (Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', p.26)

"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958)

"This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate." (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653)

He calls himself the Supreme ruler of heaven and earth, the Supreme Pontiff, the Holy Father, which belong only to God and "God himself on earth". No such terms were given to a mere man anywhere in scripture and the term "Holy Father" is used only by Jesus in John 17:11 as He prayed to God the Father. For a sinful man to assume the authority and titles which belong only to God, seems the height of blasphemy.

So the Pope has laid claim to take the place of God with infallible authority and we find the Council of Trent declared: "Sitting in that chair in which Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, sat to the close of life, the Catholic Church recognizes in his person the most exalted degree of dignity, and the full jurisdiction not based on constitutions, but emanating from no less authority than from God Himself. As the Successor of St. Peter and the true and legitimate Vicar of Jesus Christ, he therefore, presides over the Universal Church, the Father and Governor of all the faithful, of Bishops, also and of all other prelates, be their station, rant, or power, what they may be."

So its not just the Pope, the councils have also laid claim that the Pope holds of himself what can only be termed as "God on Earth".

 

[hobie]

Thank you hobie for pointing out what the Reformers believed.
But in the last hundred or two hundred years a lot of new ideas have appeared.
Tons of new books and podcasts about Endtimes are available now.

One thing is sure, those Reformers that you mentioned read and knew the BIBLE.
They didn't just read books about the topic.
Plus they went out and preached the Gospel and advanced God's Kingdom.
We saw mighty genuine Revivals and Awakenings
I have confidence in those Reformers and the old school teachings and preachings.

But I have no confidence in most of the modern teachings.

Well one thing also, God and His truth never changes.