Water Baptism

[Albion]

Go learn some more before you try to teach.

But so many people need so much teaching. You, for instance.

You are the one who added and subtracted from what the Bible says.

That's what I was referring to--some vaguely stated guesswork about complicated issues, a few verses memorized here or there from Scripture, and voila! you think you are a theologian.


:congrats:






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[Andrew]

God is a consuming fire, so I just can't accept that those who are saved will be baptized with fire since it is negative in the only place it is mentioned.

I agree, sorry if I confused the two for you... Hell is hell, a place where all the goats join the demons and Satan, the fire baptism seems to imply refining believers through the Holy Spirit into correctness and truth... until someone corrects me on this or sheds light I stand by my hunch because I honestly have no other idea what the fire baptism is.

 

[Josiah]

It is not from the Bible.

Here's what is not in the Bible...


"Thou canst NOT baptize and teach those under the magical age of X, the age which will never be disclosed."

"God is impotent to give faith and spiritual life to those under the age of X (you won't be told what age that is), those under that age just being more powerful than God (I lied about the whole John the Baptist leaping in the womb thing but you gotta admit, it was a cute story"

"Thou canst not baptize any unless you immerse every cell of their body entirely under water."




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[atpollard]

Nowhere in the Bible it is stated to only baptize and teach those over the never-disclosed magical age of X. There is the commandment to baptize and teach, but there is no limit,"But thou canst NOT do so to any under an age which will not be disclosed to you." Anti-Paedobaptism, an invention of the Anabaptists in the 16th century, has ZERO support in Scripture, history, tradition or anything else.

About time ... I wondered where you were and expected the comment about 16th Century Anabaptist much earlier in this discussion. :smile:

 

[atpollard]

I am pleased to accept what the holy scriptures say; namely that baptism saves,

[Mar 16:16 NASB] 16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
[Luk 7:50 NASB] 50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
[Luk 8:12 NASB] 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
[Jhn 3:17 NASB] 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
[Jhn 10:9 NASB] 9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
[Act 2:21 NASB] 21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
[Act 4:12 NASB] 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
[Act 11:14 NASB] 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
[Act 15:11 NASB] 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
[Act 16:31 NASB] 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
[Rom 5:9-10 NASB] 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
[Rom 10:9, 13 NASB] 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; ... 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
[Eph 2:5, 8 NASB] 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), ... 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
[2Th 2:10 NASB] 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
[Tit 3:5 NASB] 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

that it washes away one's sins,

[1Jo 1:9 NASB] 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[Mat 1:21 NASB] 21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
[Mat 9:2 NASB] 2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
[Mat 26:28 NASB] 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
[Mar 2:5 NASB] 5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
[Luk 5:20 NASB] 20 Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
[Luk 7:48 NASB] 48 Then He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven."
[Jhn 8:24 NASB] 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He,] you will die in your sins."
[Act 10:43 NASB] 43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
[Act 13:38 NASB] 38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
[1Co 15:3 NASB] 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
[Gal 1:4 NASB] 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

that it is the water that washes in regeneration

[Tit 3:5 NASB] 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

that one cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

[Jhn 3:3-8 NASB] 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

You should listen more closely to what God actually says.
1. It is not Baptism by water that saves.
2. Baptism is for repentance, but it is not the water that washes away our sins.
3. Regeneration is from the Holy Spirit, not the water.
4. It is true that one cannot enter the Kingdom of God (or even see it) without being “born from above” by water and the Spirit, but the greater emphasis is on the Spirit than on the water.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I do not know why baptism gets people so worked up. It isn't as if you get baptised once a week on Sundays or anything like that and unless you have dozens of children you're not too likely to experience many baptisms as a parent so why all the angst? What is obvious is that baptism saves, it washes away sins, it is a bath of regeneration, and it is to be received by any individual only once in a lifetime.

 

[Josiah]

I do not know why baptism gets people so worked up. It isn't as if you get baptised once a week on Sundays or anything like that and unless you have dozens of children you're not too likely to experience many baptisms as a parent so why all the angst? What is obvious is that baptism saves, it washes away sins, it is a bath of regeneration, and it is to be received by any individual only once in a lifetime.

IMO, infant baptism offends a few because obviously the baby doesn't DO anything to DESERVE anything from God. The whole idea that God simply loves and gives offends them?



https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6902-Is-Jesus-The-Savior

 

[MoreCoffee]

1. It is not Baptism by water that saves.
2. Baptism is for repentance, but it is not the water that washes away our sins.
3. Regeneration is from the Holy Spirit, not the water.
4. It is true that one cannot enter the Kingdom of God (or even see it) without being “born from above” by water and the Spirit, but the greater emphasis is on the Spirit than on the water.

Somehow I expected this kind of thing from Baptist folk.

I'm not bothering to do another cycle of chatter on the subject. If you like being a Baptist good for you. I don't want to be one.

 

[Albion]

Pouring and sprinkling are not how it was done, no such teaching in the Bible. If you want to get particular about it, a person would be baptized and fully immersed while there was flowing water to symbolically wash their sins ‘away.’.

There isn't actually any Biblical proof that that was the way it was done, however. All the churches which say it was are assuming more than appears in the Biblical record or else are misusing the original language to support their views on the matter.

 

[Josiah]

Anti-Paedobaptism is a dogma invented by the Anabaptists in the 16th Century. NOT because they found a verse that alluded every Christian for over 1500 years that states, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath first celebrated their Xth birthday and you won't be told what birthday that is." Nope. But because they were radical synergists and the idea of infant baptism conflicted with their foundational belief that we save ourselves by our own will and works, it conflicted with their heresy of Pelagianism.

 

[Arsenios]

Baptism does not require deliberate conscious repentance from an infant and
infants cannot deliberately and consciously sin anyway.
They are too young to act with deliberate volition in a sinful way.

Repentance absolutely does require a deliberate consciousness.

This is why when infants are entered into Christ by Christ's Servants in the Church...
It is their parents who are charged with the repentance of the infant...
And what a blessing, to be conceived and brought forth...
From your mother's womb within the Body of Christ...
In her Life of prayer and fasting and anointing and labors...
And then, 40 days after being brought forth into the world...
To be Baptized into Christ and receive the Holy Gifts...
And spend your days in the services and prayers of the Church...
Being a full participant of the Body and Blood of our Lord...
To be reared by your parents in the Life of Christ in His Holy Body, the Church...
And the discipline of the parents...
Becomes the repentance of the child...
Who progressively needs less and less discipline from the parents...
As he increasingly takes on the responsibility of self-discipline in the Faith...
As he or she progressively takes up the Way that Christ IS...
Persevering to the last breath in this Holy Way...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Anti-Paedobaptism is a dogma invented by the Anabaptists in the 16th Century. NOT because they found a verse that alluded every Christian for over 1500 years that states, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath first celebrated their Xth birthday and you won't be told what birthday that is." Nope. But because they were radical synergists and the idea of infant baptism conflicted with their foundational belief that we save ourselves by our own will and works, it conflicted with their heresy of Pelagianism.

Who is Paedo and why were people negative about him/her?
We're babies sprinkled or dunked anywhere in the Bible? I'm not talking about some interpretive hoop jumping and inferencing. I'm simply asking you to show me where babies were sprinkled or dunked anywhere in the Bible.
I look forward to your documentation.

 

[Arsenios]

Who is Paedo and why were people negative about him/her?
We're babies sprinkled or dunked anywhere in the Bible? I'm not talking about some interpretive hoop jumping and inferencing. I'm simply asking you to show me where babies were sprinkled or dunked anywhere in the Bible.
I look forward to your documentation.

They were neither sprinkled not dunked...

So you are right - No sprinkling nor dunking of those cute little bundles of paternal joy you love so much...

HOWEVER....

They were, in fact, Baptized into Christ,

together with the rest of the household,

including servants

but not the DONKEYS...

And apparently not YOU...

NEXT!!!.


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

They were neither sprinkled not dunked...

So you are right - No sprinkling nor dunking of those cute little bundles of paternal joy you love so much...

HOWEVER....

They were, in fact, Baptized into Christ,

together with the rest of the household,

including servants

but not DONKEYS...

And apparently not YOU...

NEXT!!!.


Arsenios

Do you just hold them under indefinitely so they remain immersed?

 

[Josiah]

We're babies (baptized) anywhere in the Bible?

1. I (like you) reject your apologetic that we can only do what is clearly exampled in the pages of the Bible. You would not be able to post on the internet if you held that your own apologetic had any merit whatsoever, if you actually believed the silly, laughable point you are making. And I suspect that if I visited your church on a typical Sunday morning, perhaps 90% plus of what I saw could not be shown to have been done in the Bible.


2. You cannot show that every baptism in the Bible was done to those over the mysterious, never-disclosed, magical age of "X." NOTHING that proves paedobaptism was not practiced - even if that mattered a bit, which of course, it does not. You CAN give examples of what appear to be adults (although you can't prove they were above the age of X) but not that all baptisms were of those over the age of X (even if you could quote the verse that tells us what age X is).


By the way, yuu also can't show that there were any blue-eyed people baptized in the Bible, so does your denomination forbid the baptisms of blue-eyed people? Show me where baptism tanks back behind a curtain were ever employed in the Bible? And while you are at it, show me that celebrating Communion with Welch's Grape Juice in tiny plastic cups and little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread was modeled in the Bible? Prove to me that they used the internet and powerpoint and that their pastors wore Ahola Shirts? After all, your apologetic is that we can't do anything that is not clearly exampled in the Bible.




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[MennoSota]

1. I (like you) reject your apologetic that we can only do what is clearly exampled in the pages of the Bible. You would not be able to post on the internet if you held that your own apologetic had any merit whatsoever, if you actually believed the silly, laughable point you are making. And I suspect that if I visited your church on a typical Sunday morning, perhaps 90% plus of what I saw could not be shown to have been done in the Bible.


2. You cannot show that every baptism in the Bible was done to those over the mysterious, never-disclosed, magical age of "X." NOTHING that proves paedobaptism was not practiced - even if that mattered a bit, which of course, it does not. You CAN give examples of what appear to be adults (although you can't prove they were above the age of X) but not that all baptisms were of those over the age of X (even if you could quote the verse that tells us what age X is).


By the way, yuu also can't show that there were any blue-eyed people baptized in the Bible, so does your denomination forbid the baptisms of blue-eyed people? Show me where baptism tanks back behind a curtain were ever employed in the Bible? And while you are at it, show me that celebrating Communion with Welch's Grape Juice in tiny plastic cups and little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread was modeled in the Bible? Prove to me that they used the internet and powerpoint and that their pastors wore Ahola Shirts? After all, your apologetic is that we can't do anything that is not clearly exampled in the Bible.




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So...no Babies were ever recorded as being baptized in the Bible. Yes?
You are free to toss water on babies all you wish. Just don't declare them saved by faith and justified by your water toss ritual. Y'all just make it up and then declare it to be true. What a remarkable dogma with no biblical support.

 

[Andrew]

I do not know why baptism gets people so worked up. It isn't as if you get baptised once a week on Sundays or anything like that and unless you have dozens of children you're not too likely to experience many baptisms as a parent so why all the angst? What is obvious is that baptism saves, it washes away sins, it is a bath of regeneration, and it is to be received by any individual only once in a lifetime.

As a CAT-holic I am surprised getting wet doesn't bother you

"Doo-doo chiiii!!!"

 

[Josiah]

1. I (like you) reject your apologetic that we can only do what is clearly exampled in the pages of the Bible. You would not be able to post on the internet if you held that your own apologetic had any merit whatsoever, if you actually believed the silly, laughable point you are making. And I suspect that if I visited your church on a typical Sunday morning, perhaps 90% plus of what I saw could not be shown to have been done in the Bible.


2. You cannot show that every baptism in the Bible was done to those over the mysterious, never-disclosed, magical age of "X." NOTHING that proves paedobaptism was not practiced - even if that mattered a bit, which of course, it does not. You CAN give examples of what appear to be adults (although you can't prove they were above the age of X) but not that all baptisms were of those over the age of X (even if you could quote the verse that tells us what age X is).


By the way, yuu also can't show that there were any blue-eyed people baptized in the Bible, so does your denomination forbid the baptisms of blue-eyed people? Show me where baptism tanks back behind a curtain were ever employed in the Bible? And while you are at it, show me that celebrating Communion with Welch's Grape Juice in tiny plastic cups and little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread was modeled in the Bible? Prove to me that they used the internet and powerpoint and that their pastors wore Ahola Shirts? After all, your apologetic is that we can't do anything that is not clearly exampled in the Bible.


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So...no Babies were ever recorded as being baptized in the Bible. Yes?

Guess you didn't read the post you quoted....


Does your denomination forbid the baptisms of Americans and blue-eyed Danes? Does it forbid celebrating Communion with grape juice and powerpoint and baptism tanks and you posting on the internet? Does it forbid Communion to children and/or women? Or does it quote verses in the Bible where these things are done? Or does it (like you) reject your whole premise, your apologetic here as silly and absurd?





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[MennoSota]

Guess you didn't read the post you quoted....


Does your denomination forbid the baptisms of Americans and blue-eyed Danes? Does it forbid celebrating Communion with grape juice and powerpoint and baptism tanks and you posting on the internet? Does it forbid Communion to children and/or women? Or does it quote verses in the Bible where these things are done? Or does it (like you) reject your whole premise, your apologetic here as silly and absurd?





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Does the Bible show us actual infant baptism? This is not a difficult question.
Dance around it all you want. Just know you are preaching dogma, not doctrine.

 

[Josiah]

Does the Bible show us actual infant baptism?

See post # 58.


Yes, the Bible gives just as many clear examples of those under the mystical, never-disclosed as of "X" being baptized as it does of Christians posting on the internet, Christians celebrating communion with little plastic glasses of grape juice and little cut up pieces of Weber's White Bread served to women and kids by passing it around the pews, of pastors wearing Ahola shirts and using powerpoint and video clips, and baptism tanks, of churches having websites and youth groups and youth pastors and women's groups and women pastors. When your church forbids all that... and forbids baptizing people with blue eyes, you MIGHT have a tiny point. But your denomination obviously thinks your whole apologetic is silly and they repudiate and don't follow it.





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