Tradition

[Arsenios]

What it means is that only the elect receive saving grace, saving faith and repentance.

How do we know who is and who is not the elect?

Does the Bible tell us how?

And if we don't know, what good does it do to say so...

The altitude above a pilot is useless information, Menno...

He needs to know if he has ground clearance over the mountain range...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

How do we know who is and who is not the elect?

Does the Bible tell us how?

And if we don't know, what good does it do to say so...

The altitude above a pilot is useless information, Menno...

He needs to know if he has ground clearance over the mountain range...


Arsenios

Jesus said, “Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven” (Matthew 7:20–21).
Galatians 5:22-24
But*the fruit of the Spirit is*love, joy, peace, patience,*kindness, goodness, faithfulness,*gentleness,*self-control against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus*have crucified the flesh with its*passions and desires.
Galatians 2:20-21
I have been*crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives*in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God,*who loved me and*gave himself for me.*I do not nullify the grace of God, for*if righteousness*were through the law,*then Christ died for no purpose.

Jesus tells us there are tares among the wheat. When the harvest is ripe, the difference will be obvious. Until then...we live by faith...a faith given to us by God.

 

[Arsenios]

Until then...we live by faith...a faith given to us by God.

Good - How do we know if anyone is one of the elect?

Granted, God knows...

But I don't know...

And I don't think you know...

Therefore to say God gives them faith is not helpful...

Because we do not know who they are...

Nor can we...

"You have 6000' of runway behind you, Captain..."

Useless information on the takeoff roll, you see...

You need to know how many feet you have left to get off the ground...


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Good - How do we know if anyone is one of the elect?

Is that something YOU need to know unless it concerns yourself???

 

[MennoSota]

Good - How do we know if anyone is one of the elect?

Granted, God knows...

But I don't know...

And I don't think you know...

Therefore to say God gives them faith is not helpful...

Because we do not know who they are...

Nor can we...

"You have 6000' of runway behind you, Captain..."

Useless information on the takeoff roll, you see...

You need to know how many feet you have left to get off the ground...


Arsenios

Why do we care? Can anyone brag about God's gracious salvation which comes by no effort or merit of our own? May Jesus Christ be praised.
To say that God gives faith is biblical. Whether you think it helpful or not is irrelevant.

 

[Arsenios]

Why do we care?

Indeed...

So why do you keep saying it...?

Because it is true?

When no one on earth can tell anyone else who is and who is not a recipient of this Grace?

Why should we care if it is true?

It is useless information...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Is that something YOU need to know unless it concerns yourself???

ESPECIALLY if it concerns self...

Can you yourself KNOW you ARE one of the ELECT?

Is it just an internal feeling you have?

Can you feel this belief?

Or do you just say: "I believe!" and that is how you know?

The practical outworking is that there is NOTHING you can DO to seek God...

And THAT is DISASTER if you actually are unfortunate enough to believe it...

"This is the generation of them that seek the face of the God of Jacob..."

And the Bible instructs us: "Ask and ye shall receive... Seek and ye shall find... Beckon..."

Asking God for your Salvation is not something God ignores...

Ignoring God until you are saved is just wrong...

Christ commanded the Apostles to "Disciple all the Nations..."

Should we think they are saved before they are discipled?


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Indeed...

So why do you keep saying it...?

Because it is true?

When no one on earth can tell anyone else who is and who is not a recipient of this Grace?

Why should we care if it is true?

It is useless information...


Arsenios

Thank you, I have the same dilemma when trying to wrap my head around TULIP, what is the point??

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why is the concept of apostolic tradition confusing you?

 

[Arsenios]

Thank you,
I have the same dilemma when trying to wrap my head around TULIP,
What is the point??

The point is to get people to feel smug in their faith because they are believers...
And to try to then argue that they cannot be smug because they are but unjustly gifted by God...
And if you believe them, then there is no repentance you can undertake to seek God's Grace...
And that is just plain false and nullifies the Gospel of Christ:

"Be ye repenting...
For the Kingdom of Heaven...
Is at hand!"

Christ's very words...

The Call of God is for YOU to turn from sin and seek God...
IF you do so, you will find Salvation...
If you do NOT turn from your sin...
If you continue to ignore God...
You will NOT find Salvation...

It is an incredibly evil doctrine...
It leaves an unbeliever stillborn...
Awaiting Salvation while doing nothing...
Knowing God only cares about His Oh So Special ELECT...


Forgive the rant!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Indeed...

So why do you keep saying it...?

Because it is true?

When no one on earth can tell anyone else who is and who is not a recipient of this Grace?

Why should we care if it is true?

It is useless information...


Arsenios

Why are you focusing on man?
We look to God and give Him the glory.

 

[Arsenios]

Why are you focusing on man?

Because Man is the one in need of Salvation...

God is not the one in question here...

But you and I are...

We look to God and give Him the glory.

You need to look at yourself and repent from your sins...

God is way more than just fine, OK?

Repentance glorifies God...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Because Man is the one in need of Salvation...

God is not the one in question here...

But you and I are...



You need to look at yourself and repent from your sins...

God is way more than just fine, OK?

Repentance glorifies God...


Arsenios

Man cannot save himself.
We focus on the God whose strength is more than capable of saving. We give Him the glory. He is worthy of praise. We are as filthy rags. There is nothing to look at. We cannot save ourselves.
Of course repentance glorifies God. He is the one who causes us to repent. God is the cause agent. Repentance is the effect of God's work in us to save us.
It is a foolish thing to imagine that God will not save us until we repent. If that were the case...no man would ever be saved. If that were the process...human effort would be the means by which we invoked God to save.
God saves us so that we will repent and He will be glorified.
Arsenios, you have it backwards.

 

[Lamb]

ESPECIALLY if it concerns self...

Can you yourself KNOW you ARE one of the ELECT?

Is it just an internal feeling you have?

Can you feel this belief?

Or do you just say: "I believe!" and that is how you know?

The practical outworking is that there is NOTHING you can DO to seek God...

And THAT is DISASTER if you actually are unfortunate enough to believe it...

"This is the generation of them that seek the face of the God of Jacob..."

And the Bible instructs us: "Ask and ye shall receive... Seek and ye shall find... Beckon..."

Asking God for your Salvation is not something God ignores...

Ignoring God until you are saved is just wrong...

Christ commanded the Apostles to "Disciple all the Nations..."

Should we think they are saved before they are discipled?


Arsenios

Of course I know I am one of the elect...why? Because I believe that Jesus died on the cross and my sins are forgiven. There is no doubt there because it doesn't depend on my feelings or whether I was sincere enough or any other thing dependent on man. Jesus died and my sins are forgiven. There is the best evidence of faith when man proclaims the Savior. Only following that does works flow.

Jesus already said don't worry which is the wheat or tares so you should follow that advice

 

[Arsenios]

Of course I know I am one of the elect...why?

Indeed - Do you know it from yourself?

Or do you know it from another person?

And if from another, who is that person?

Because I believe that Jesus died on the cross and my sins are forgiven.

This is self-affirmation...

There is no doubt there because it doesn't depend on my feelings

Yes, it depends on YOUR belief...

or whether I was sincere enough or any other thing dependent on man.

It depends on your assessment of your own self believing...

Jesus died and my sins are forgiven.

He did that for all - Are all sins forgiven?

There is the best evidence of faith when man proclaims the Savior.

Personal proclamation of the Savior is good evidence - It is not knowledge...

Only following that does works flow.

Christ came to walk upon this earth to call sinners to repentance...

That repenting, He should join them to Himself...

Baptizing them into His Body at the hands of His Servants...

And discipling them unto maturity in Him...

The Faith of Christ is a struggle in which we are to persevere to the end...

Because demonic powers will assail us to the end of our life on this earth...

He who perseveres to the end SHALL be saved...

In this fallen life, Salvation is Life in Christ's Body entered by Baptism into Christ...

Baptism is done by Christ, not by man acting alone...


Arsenios

Jesus already said don't worry which is the wheat or tares so you should follow that advice

 

[Albion]

Jesus already said don't worry which is the wheat or tares so you should follow that advice

It sounds very much like you are berating her for doing just what you are recommending here--trusting Jesus that those people who are His will be saved--and that you would prefer that she worry about it.

 

[Arsenios]

We are as filthy rags.

That is why Christ incarnated to CALL sinners to repentance...

Repentance is the effect of God's work in us to save us.

Repentance is man's appropriate response to God's CALL to repentance...

It is a foolish thing to imagine that God will not save us until we repent.

UNLESS man repents from his sins, God WILL NOT Save him...

If that were the case...no man would ever be saved.

Christ's very words from Holy Scripture in all three Synoptic Gospels:

Mat 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach,
and to say,
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

After His Death on the Cross, Peter continued to the Gentiles:

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them,
Repent,
and be baptized
every one of you
in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins,
and
ye shall receive the Gift
of the Holy Spirit.

If that were the process...human effort would be the means by which we invoked God to save.

Indeed - YOU have to desire to be saved and do something about it, or God will grant you your filthy rags permanently...

When God calls YOU to repent and be Baptized INTO Christ, and YOU do NOT do so, you will NOT be saved by God...

"I came... to call sinners to repentance..."

Do you not believe Christ's very words?

God saves us so that we will repent and He will be glorified.

God calls us to repentance that we should be Saved by God...

Arsenios, you have it backwards.

You have three fingers pointing right back into your own soul...

You simply CANNOT teach
that no one can do anything
for the sake of gaining
their own Salvation
from God...

We need to repent of our filthy rags...

God will purify us in the Baptismal Waters of Purification...

"And the Spirit of God
Moved Upon the Face of the Waters..."

Christ's Baptism completes Genesis for man...


Arsenios

1Co 9:22
To the weak became I as weak,
that I might gain the weak:
I am made all things to all men,
that I might by all means
save some.

Believing in God,
I become as a Sola Scripture believer
that I might gain
those believing in Scripture Alone...

 

[Arsenios]

It sounds very much like you are berating her for doing just what you are recommending here--trusting Jesus that those people who are His will be saved--and that you would prefer that she worry about it.

That was not my quote - Sorry - It was hers...

I did not notice it at the bottom, and will re-en-quote it...

I sure hope I was not berating Lamm...

Our Salvation is a life-long big ol'...

IF...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus already said don't worry which is the wheat or tares so you should follow that advice

I am but challenging the TEACHING that human repentance has no efficacy for our Salvation by God...

The false teaching that the Call of Christ to Repentance must be ignored until one is Saved...

That human repentance in response to God's CALL to repentance has nothing to do with God Saving us...

Menno and Josiah are teaching human spiritual destruction with this false doctrine...

What man does in response to God's CALL to Repentance has EVERYTHING to DO with man's Salvation by God...

Sorry, Lamm - I flat out missed that last line of yours...

And please forgive me if I was too harsh...

I have been told I have delicate sensitivities akin to a public toilet seat...

Mind you!


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

I am but challenging the TEACHING that human repentance has no efficacy for our Salvation by God...

No one denies that repentance is required.


The issue is whether justification (the changed relationship, the coming of spiritual life, the coming of the Holy Spirit, the giving of faith in Christ as Savior) is the RESULT of the dead, atheistic enemy of God performing a good work (in this case, repentance) or whether such is a result of the Incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ (in other words, is Jesus the Savior or is each individual death, atheistic enemy of God).


IMO, you are making a fundamental error that undermines (if not destroys) the Gospel and the whole point of Christianity, by ignoring Jesus and placing everything on what the dead, atheist, enemy of God DOES, making everything (EVERYTHING) hinge on a good work performed by one whom the Bible expressly says is incapable to doing it. IMO, you are diminishing (or perhaps eliminating) Jesus and replacing it with a work performed by the dead atheist - all with NOTHING from God (no Holy Spirit, no life, no nothing) - just God calling.


I'd remind you of the rising of Lazarus. Yes, Jesus called the dead from the Tomb but it's JESUS that performed the MIRACLE, Lazarus did not raise himself by obeying the Call. We give Jesus 100% of the credit for the miracle because Jesus did 100% of it. Lazarus was raised, Lazarus didn't raise himself. Yes, Lazarus responded to the call but only because he then had life.... It's Jesus' miracle, not Lazarus'.


If Jesus is the Savior, then Jesus does the saving. The granting of life, of the Holy Spirit, of faith in Christ as Savior are miracles GOD performs. HOW He works this all out is a mystery (as all miracles are) but insisting that self actually does all of it by self OBEYING, PERFORMING and God simply accordingly rewarding that is the soteriology of Islam and all the false religions of the world.







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