To Be Left Behind

Lamb

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Noah survived the experience while the others did not. My concern is that if we try and use Noah to argue that the non-believers will be whisked away and the believers left behind on the earth we potentially force an application into the text that it just doesn't support. The description of the woes and the judgments in Revelation make it clear that they affect those who took the mark of the beast, which means that non-believers must be on earth for that stage at least. It could be argued that the wrath is poured out upon those who believers who broke under pressure and took the mark of the beast but I'd suspect if the only people left on the earth were true believers they would support each other to reduce the likelihood of anyone taking the mark. If true believers are a minority (and a shrinking minority at that) it becomes more likely that they would be flushed out by the agents of the beast and presented with the choice to take the mark or die right there and then.

Also, the fact God chose to work in one particular way where Noah was concerned doesn't obligate him to do the same thing the next time his wrath is poured out upon the earth.

Scripture brings up the point about Noah and the ark when referring to Christ's return which refutes the "Left Behind" crowd where believers are whisked away since Noah wasn't whisked anywhere else but was left. I hold to the Amillennial belief.
 

Rens

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A lot of those people I have as Facebook friends who go to the street to evangelize used to believe in the rapture, but it made them apathetically waiting for it and now they want nothing to do with that doom thinking and they're into Kingdom Now. The christians are gonna reign the world, no ac, everything gets better and better and then Jesus gets back or He has come back spiritually in 70 AD, preterism in a new jacket and it doesn't matter what text you use, they just interpret them differently, very weird and dangerous. When you say: but Israel is gonna be restored before He comes back. Nope and then comes some weird interpretation. Replacement theology. Impossible to discuss it, I don't even try anymore.
 

tango

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Scripture brings up the point about Noah and the ark when referring to Christ's return which refutes the "Left Behind" crowd where believers are whisked away since Noah wasn't whisked anywhere else but was left. I hold to the Amillennial belief.

Yes, we already discussed what counts as being "left behind" in that context.

If the believers are whisked away in the rapture and saved from the tribulation (as Noah was whisked away in the Ark and saved from the waters) that doesn't preclude them subsequently living in the new heaven and the new earth once the non-believers have suffered God's wrath and thrown into the lake of fire.

Given what Scripture says about the assorted bowl judgements causing such suffering but only to those who took the mark of the beast I struggle to see anything other than two groups continuing to coexist on the earth. Had there been no believers on earth at that point I would have expected the Revelation to indicate that only non-believers would be left and the suffering would be universal.
 

tango

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A lot of those people I have as Facebook friends who go to the street to evangelize used to believe in the rapture, but it made them apathetically waiting for it and now they want nothing to do with that doom thinking and they're into Kingdom Now. The christians are gonna reign the world, no ac, everything gets better and better and then Jesus gets back or He has come back spiritually in 70 AD, preterism in a new jacket and it doesn't matter what text you use, they just interpret them differently, very weird and dangerous. When you say: but Israel is gonna be restored before He comes back. Nope and then comes some weird interpretation. Replacement theology. Impossible to discuss it, I don't even try anymore.

Kingdom Now theology is something I just can't reconcile with Scripture at all. I left a church over that particular theology - when I tried to discuss it with the minister and council members they asked me to write an email because they said they couldn't follow my reasoning, and when I did email them explaining why I thought it was advancing the kingdom of the antichrist one decided he wasn't interested in "debating with me" and another was too busy writing newsletters to address my concerns.
 

psalms 91

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Kingdom Now theology is something I just can't reconcile with Scripture at all. I left a church over that particular theology - when I tried to discuss it with the minister and council members they asked me to write an email because they said they couldn't follow my reasoning, and when I did email them explaining why I thought it was advancing the kingdom of the antichrist one decided he wasn't interested in "debating with me" and another was too busy writing newsletters to address my concerns.
I think Revelation is very clear that satan will reign for a short time
 

MoreCoffee

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Kingdom Now theology is something I just can't reconcile with Scripture at all. I left a church over that particular theology - when I tried to discuss it with the minister and council members they asked me to write an email because they said they couldn't follow my reasoning, and when I did email them explaining why I thought it was advancing the kingdom of the antichrist one decided he wasn't interested in "debating with me" and another was too busy writing newsletters to address my concerns.

What's kingdom theology?

I know that Jehovah's witnesses used to have the masthead on the Watchtower saying Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom but I presume their take on kingdom matters differs from the kind of theology you have in mind.
 

tango

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What's kingdom theology?

I know that Jehovah's witnesses used to have the masthead on the Watchtower saying Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom but I presume their take on kingdom matters differs from the kind of theology you have in mind.

The key is in the Now of Kingdom Now. There are all sorts of goodies promised when we reach heaven and a large part of Kingdom Now seeks to enjoy them here on earth. In many ways I liken it to spiritual fornication, seeking the benefits received after the marriage of the Lamb but before the marriage takes place (just to be clear, I'm not saying the benefits are sexual, just that the comparison seems relevant to couples on earth wanting the benefits of marriage before actually getting married)
 

MoreCoffee

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The key is in the Now of Kingdom Now. There are all sorts of goodies promised when we reach heaven and a large part of Kingdom Now seeks to enjoy them here on earth. In many ways I liken it to spiritual fornication, seeking the benefits received after the marriage of the Lamb but before the marriage takes place (just to be clear, I'm not saying the benefits are sexual, just that the comparison seems relevant to couples on earth wanting the benefits of marriage before actually getting married)

Oh, so it is like the prosperity gospel and the health and wealth gospel. That is quite popular in Charismatic and Pentecostal circles. At least it was in the 1980s through to the 2000s and it may be still.
 

tango

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Oh, so it is like the prosperity gospel and the health and wealth gospel. That is quite popular in Charismatic and Pentecostal circles. At least it was in the 1980s through to the 2000s and it may be still.

Kinda sorta. There are all sorts of weird theologies floating around that have varying degrees of overlap. The health and wealth gospel that promises us perfect health on this earth mysteriously fails to guarantee freedom from death (they sometimes use the "no sickness exists in heaven therefore it shouldn't exist on earth" line but apparently that only applies to sickness and not to sorrow, pain, death etc). Cue the Manifest Sons Of God theology that allows people to more or less become like little gods here on earth and become immortal this side of heaven. Hey, Jesus died for that too, doncha know? Then there's the Dominionism theology that holds that Adam was given dominion over the earth, freely gave it to Satan when he ate the forbidden fruit, Jesus took it back when he was crucified and gave it back to us, and now we're supposed to clean up the earth so we can hand it over, perfected, to Jesus at the Second Coming. Aside from the dominion being handed around like a bag of candy being so full of holes it's a wonder anyone buys it, it puts all the power in our hands because apparently Jesus cannot come back until we've done our bit. So God sits around in heaven, wringing his hands like some kind of impotent bumbling fool, wishing we'd get on with the bit he gave us to do so he can step in and do his bit. It's a far cry from "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

Since I left the church that went off the rails I haven't spent anywhere near as much time studying this stuff, at the time I was reading a lot of it because there are so many teachers pushing more or less the same teachings that have varying levels of what I'd call theological toxicity, and I wanted to put forward a coherent rebuttal of what they were teaching. Although from the response I got back from the leadership it was clear I might as well not have bothered. All I can hope is that they actually consider what I said and maybe sometime either change course or explain why I was wrong. Since they refused to do either there was no way I could regard them as spiritual leaders, hence I had little option but to find another church.
 

MoreCoffee

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Kinda sorta. There are all sorts of weird theologies floating around that have varying degrees of overlap. The health and wealth gospel that promises us perfect health on this earth mysteriously fails to guarantee freedom from death (they sometimes use the "no sickness exists in heaven therefore it shouldn't exist on earth" line but apparently that only applies to sickness and not to sorrow, pain, death etc). Cue the Manifest Sons Of God theology that allows people to more or less become like little gods here on earth and become immortal this side of heaven. Hey, Jesus died for that too, doncha know? Then there's the Dominionism theology that holds that Adam was given dominion over the earth, freely gave it to Satan when he ate the forbidden fruit, Jesus took it back when he was crucified and gave it back to us, and now we're supposed to clean up the earth so we can hand it over, perfected, to Jesus at the Second Coming. Aside from the dominion being handed around like a bag of candy being so full of holes it's a wonder anyone buys it, it puts all the power in our hands because apparently Jesus cannot come back until we've done our bit. So God sits around in heaven, wringing his hands like some kind of impotent bumbling fool, wishing we'd get on with the bit he gave us to do so he can step in and do his bit. It's a far cry from "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

Since I left the church that went off the rails I haven't spent anywhere near as much time studying this stuff, at the time I was reading a lot of it because there are so many teachers pushing more or less the same teachings that have varying levels of what I'd call theological toxicity, and I wanted to put forward a coherent rebuttal of what they were teaching. Although from the response I got back from the leadership it was clear I might as well not have bothered. All I can hope is that they actually consider what I said and maybe sometime either change course or explain why I was wrong. Since they refused to do either there was no way I could regard them as spiritual leaders, hence I had little option but to find another church.

I've been out of touch with Protestantism for quite a while now, there are so many "new" beliefs that are rehashes of ancient heresy that it is no easy task to remain current and informed. In the 1990s Dominionism was a Presbyterian & Reformed movement following the lead of men like Greg Bahnsen and R. J. Rushdoony. I guess the title was attractive to some within the Charismatic movement and was appropriated by them for a very different theology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkQ6DlTQ114
 
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tango

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Apparently the so-called "Seven Mountains Mandate" was given, independently, to two different Christian leaders so it must have been from God. One might think that if it had been of such importance Jesus might have mentioned it during his time walking this earth as a man but maybe he forgot to mention it. I can just imagine him in heaven, after his ascension, muttering about how he forgot the most important part. Still, he had another opportunity when he gave the Revelation to John, but sadly it must have slipped his mind again. Who would have thought it would have taken him nearly 2000 years to find another opportunity to correct his oversights. Oh well, third time lucky I guess.
 

ThreeAngels

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Some denominations believe in the Left Behind series that describes a "rapture" that was invented only 200 years ago or so.

There is a "rapture" or "caught up" part of scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Scripture, of course, should never be pulled out on its own without regard to what the rest of scripture teaches.

The "Left Behind" stuff from the book series tells of a secret Jesus yet that verse above in 4:16 reveals a loud trumpet.

We WILL be caught up with the Lord, but that is at His final coming.

Matthew 24:40-41 gives us another insight "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." This verse shouldn't be interpreted without the preceding verse which states "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

Scripture shows us that the ones taken away were not the believers. The believers, in the case of Noah, were left behind.
In the days of Noah the righteous were in the earth together with the wicked as the wrath of God was poured on the world but the believers were safe. Similarly at the end of the world the righteous will be with the wicked on earth but they will pass through the plagues safe.
 
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