The unwritten mysteries of the church.

[amadeois]

Yes, I agree.

We should be discussing ONLY Christian issues, is called a Christian Forum.

But we need to understand that other humans do have their own scriptures that are sacred to them, so if we are writing about the Bible, call it that way.

Why?

I believe not only Christians have joined this forum, but we have other people from other religions. Probably learning from these discussions. So if you use the word scripture, they might think is their scriptures.

In order not to have misunderstandings, call it what is: The Bible.

Kind of another writing I had regarding the description of a fish that was caught by a fisherman.

He said it was enormeous.

To 5 people it may be:
13 inches
17 inches
28 inches
40 inches
666 inches

DON'T CALL IT ENORMEOUS
SAY IT WAS 12 INCHES, THE TRUTH.



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[MoreCoffee]

It will be helpful if the participants in this thread return to the topic raised in the first post; namely that the unwritten words of God preserved in the Church in her liturgies and in her prayers and in her doctrines are part of the gospel preached by Christ and handed down through the apostles and their successors to the church today. The quote from saint Basil the great argues against every view contrary to this. He argues that "bible only" views damage the gospel.

 

[Josiah]

There are scriptures that are not the Bible.

You wrote - in the Christianity only forum - that "not all Scriptures are true." I disagree with you.

How about the sacred scriptures of Islam?

In Christianity, we don't accept them as God's inscripturated words AT ALL. Thus, for this forum, they are not "Scripture"

So what I was referring was that they other sacred scriptures to those other people that have different ideas from what we believe. So you are kind of insulting these other believers that they don't have any scriptures. They have scriptures and they believe that they are sacred to them.

Sorry, it may have been unintentional.... and I believe Staff will cut you some slack (as they should here).... but it's a rule violation to promote other religions in this forum. And since this is the CHRISTIANITY-ONLY forum, when you say "Scripture" you thus are mandated to mean the CHRISTIAN Scriptures. If you wanted to speak of the Bhagavad Gita, it would have been best to indicate such rather than to address such as "Scripture" (with a capital "S"); indeed to call such "Scripture" (capitol "S") would very likely be a rule violation - the promotion of other religions. But I accept you simply made an innocent mistake that won't be repeated.

You are new here.... and coming to a new community always involves a bit of a "learning curve" about that community's people and policies and practices. I suspect you meant well.... and perhaps we actually quite agree. Don't be discouraged. I'd direct you to Lammchen or Tango or George especially for any guidance, they are so very helpful and kind. This is a GREAT community that is excellently managed. You are welcomed here.

People through out words that they fully don't really know what they mean, and that is why we have these discussions to come to an agreement, but it does not happen.

It DOES happen when you write "Scripture" in the CHRISTIANITY ONLY forum where such refers to the Christian Scriptures, what (except for LDS and some cults equals "Bible" now) Christians mean by it. If this was the SHINTO ONLY forum, sure - Scripture (capitalized to show special respect, honor, veneration?) might refer to something different. But this isn't the SHINTO ONLY Forum, is it? Again, you made an innocent mistake - all forgive.



Thank you.


Pax Christi


- Josiah



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[Josiah]

It will be helpful if the participants in this thread return to the topic raised in the first post; namely that the unwritten words of God preserved in the Church in her liturgies and in her prayers and in her doctrines are part of the gospel preached by Christ and handed down through the apostles and their successors to the church today. The quote from saint Basil the great argues against every view contrary to this. He argues that "bible only" views damage the gospel.

I think your premise has been universally rejected. And you have not even attempted to support it.

And since there are no liturgies exactly as those used down at St. Francis Catholic Church from the First Century.... and since we have NOTHING from the First Century about the Assumption of Mary and the Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff of the Individual RC Denomination and Transfiguration and Purgatory and every other unique/distinctive RC Dogma.... your whole premise seems entirely baseless and unhistorical. Unless you can support your premise, I don't think there's any reason why ANY here should discuss it (as long as "it" doesn't appear to be reality).

It's nice to have you back. You are my esteemed friend with whom I very, very, very often and passionately agree (but disagree - rarely - with you concerning EXACTLY the same things and to the same degree that you rarely disagree with me)



- Josiah





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[amadeois]

Are we the only Christian Forum?

I'm posting on 2 other forums that are also Christians but because of regulations can not have the same name, but they also discuss similar issues.

Are we that exclusive?

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[MoreCoffee]

The first century does not have a halo surrounding it. The early centuries of Christian history are important and supply profound teaching from the fathers and from the apostles yet we live 2000 years later and the development of doctrine did not cease when the year 101 AD was reached. I reject your thesis [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]. It is not consistent with Christian teaching either in the first century or now.

 

[Alithis]

It will be helpful if the participants in this thread return to the topic raised in the first post; namely that the unwritten words of God preserved in the Church in her liturgies and in her prayers and in her doctrines are part of the gospel preached by Christ and handed down through the apostles and their successors to the church today. The quote from saint Basil the great argues against every view contrary to this. He argues that "bible only" views damage the gospel.

he would argue that .. the so called unwritten word preserved in that man made institution do not always agree with the bible . thus they bring instability uncertainty and ambiguity and open the gate for all manor of false and devilish doctrines of idolatry and abominable things. the absolute SINGLE claim to any of it being truth is .. because you say it is ... ???!!! get of your high horse . the pope nor the writers of it ... none of them are infallible and to even imply they are right simply because they say they are right implies they are . but that would be to say they are equal to god and that's blasphemy .
we have the law and the prophets , we have the words of JESUS .. any writing that is not in harmony with these .. are at enmity .

 

[Lamb]

Are we the only Christian Forum?

I'm posting on 2 other forums that are also Christians but because of regulations can not have the same name, but they also discuss similar issues.

Are we that exclusive?

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What Josiah was referring to is your posting of calling other religious writings as being sacred. I have posted that they are NOT considered sacred on this site and we WILL continue to call our biblical writings "scripture". Non-Christians who come to this site will have the intelligence to be aware we do NOT refer to their beliefs in calling things holy.

Now that we have that settled, back on topic please as MoreCoffee keeps trying to encourage all to do.

 

[Josiah]

The first century does not have a halo surrounding it.

Thus, you sabotage your premise..... if it doesn't matter if denominations are identical in teaching and practice with the First Century Christians, when your whole premise about the singular, individual RC Denomination doing and teaching as the First Century did is..... absurd.

The early centuries of Christian history are important and supply profound teaching from the fathers and from the apostles

I agree. But, obviously, nothing distinctive to the individual, singular RC Denomination existed among any of them. You cannot find even ONE unique RC Dogma in the Early Church - NOTHING to show that that one, singular, individual denomination's unique doctrines and/or practices was promoted as such by ANY "father" prior to 300 AD, any who even theoretically could have overheard such from one of the Twelve (or 13 or 14) Apostles. The INFALLIBILITY of the Bishop in Rome of the singular, individual RC Denomination..... Purgatory...... Assumption of Mary.... Transubstantiation...... etc., etc., etc., etc. DOGMAS in the individual RC Denomination, distinctive DOGMAS that make the RCC the RCC theologically - they are all MISSING in the Early Church. Now.... friend.... you can argue "so what? Doesn't matter!" but then you shoot yourself in the foot with this whole "just like the Early Church" point.... and with the "it got it from the Apostles" point. You can't have it both ways.


Friend, you begun this thread with a PREMISE that you didn't even try to support as true (and we all know why you didn't bother)..... it seems no one here is "buying it." It seems even you don't.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

It will be helpful if the participants in this thread return to the topic raised in the first post; namely that the unwritten words of God preserved in the Church in her liturgies and in her prayers and in her doctrines are part of the gospel preached by Christ and handed down through the apostles and their successors to the church today. The quote from saint Basil the great argues against every view contrary to this. He argues that "bible only" views damage the gospel.

Not really ... what is preserved ... is misunderstandings of God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sometimes the arrogance of expression about what ancient church fathers cannot teach to current generations of Christians is astounding.

 

[Pedrito]

And as for (Post #1 on Page 2, emphasis added):

Of the beliefs and practices ... which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us "in a mystery" by the tradition of the apostles

I find it difficult to accept teachings introduced into the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years after, or over a thousand years after, the death of the last apostle, as being beliefs and practices delivered to us "in a mystery" by the tradition of the apostles.

Why did it take so long for doctrines officially proclaimed in the last few hundred years or so, to be so proclaimed (not to mention those yet to be proclaimed), if they were handed down “by the tradition of the apostles”?

Also, MoreCoffee in Post #33 on Page 4:

The unwritten words of God are preserved in the Catholic Church in her liturgy, her prayers, and in her teaching.

I similarly find it difficult to accept teachings introduced into the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years after, or over a thousand years after, the death of the last apostle, as being the “unwritten words of God”.

When was the effective cutoff date beyond which the teachings and practices added into the already-existing teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church, must be acknowledged as neither apostolic tradition nor the unwritten words of God?

And just because (Post #42 on Page 5):

...saint Basil the great ... argues that "bible only" views damage the gospel.

that does not make it so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the context of the cutoff date above, it seems pertinent to restate a request made in Post #10 on Page 1.

The crux of the matter for individual Protestant churches represented in this forum is simple – which post-apostolic church councils are considered authoritative (Josiah has mentioned a few elsewhere) – and are all the proclamations from all those particular councils actually accepted? (If not, then which proclamations are accepted, and which proclamations are not?)

Meaningful, pointed and precise feedback about those two particular issues, from regular Protestant (including Orthodox) contributors to this forum (and other Readers from the Protestant arena), is requested and will be appreciated. (Josiah may be in a strong position to present the Lutheran perspective.)

Will nobody tell us? And if not, why not?

 

[amadeois]

All of it is a big "LIE" invented by Satan so you follow his ideas and not the truth.

What was written is ALL you need.

What did Jesus say about traditions?

Because of your traditions you annul the commandments of my father.

Not the commandments of the old father's that followed traditions and went away from the word of God.

The RCC will be destroyed in one hour, read all about it on the word of God: Recelation 18. That great city, Babylon dressed in purple and scarlet. None other than the Vatican City.

I say it again, What book are we reading brothers?

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[amadeois]

I meant the book of Revelation chapter 18.

The Jews were captured and taken to Babylon for 70 years where they were brainwashed by the Devil to follow his ideas and they don't believe that Satan exists.

The RCC and Christianity also have been kidnapped by the Red Dragon for over 1,700 years and have been brainwashed with his ideas and people are so blind that they don't see it.

Is like the toad that was inside the pot that started to get warmer and warmer and got cooked.

Don't be a toad my friend. Jump out of the warming pot before is too late.

Peace be with you brothers.

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[pinacled]

Christians prayed facing East because the Lord said "as the lightning flashes out of the east ... so shall the coming of the Son of Man be" similar imagery is used elsewhere in sacred scripture to describe the rising of God to save his people in the last days. And the sun rises in the east which probably played a role in the biblical language about God and the return of Christ.

Matthew 24:27 For just as lightning goes out from the east, and appears even in the west, so shall it be also at the advent of the Son of man.

As adamant a statement this is id have to continue with resolve.
You see in Ezekiel the son of man entered the east gate and none could enter after.
So why would a man turn toward a closed door. If someone were to read closely. There may a man that sits on the throne already and faces east waiting and thinking to himself he is king.

???

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some of you will reject what the early church fathers wrote as having any authority for you and your beliefs. Some of you will not. I thought this was an interesting passage from saint Basil the Great.

Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us "in a mystery" by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force. And these no one will gainsay;--no one, at all events, who is even moderately versed in the institutions of the Church. For were we to attempt to reject such customs as have no written authority, on the ground that the importance they possess is small, we should unintentionally injure the Gospel in its very vitals; or, rather, should make our public definition a mere phrase and nothing more. For instance, to take the first and most general example, who is there who has taught us in writing to sign with the sign of the cross those who have trusted in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ? What writing has taught us to turn to the East at the prayer? Which of the saints has left us in writing the words of the invocation at the displaying of the bread of the Eucharist and the cup of blessing? For we are not, as is well known, content with what the apostle or the Gospel has recorded, but both in preface and conclusion we add other words as being of great importance to the validity of the ministry, and these we derive from unwritten teaching.

...

Time will fail me if I attempt to recount the unwritten mysteries of the Church. Of the rest I say nothing; but of the very confession of our faith in Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, what is the written source? If it be granted that, as we are baptised, so also under the obligation to believe, we make our confession in like terms as our baptism, in accordance with the tradition of our baptism and in conformity with the principles of true religion, let our opponents grant us too the right to be as consistent in our ascription of glory as in our confession of faith. If they deprecate our doxology on the ground that it lacks written authority, let them give us the written evidence for the confession of our faith and the other matters which we have enumerated. While the unwritten traditions are so many, and their bearing on "the mystery of godliness is so important, can they refuse to allow us a single word which has come down to us from the Fathers;--which we found, derived from untutored custom, abiding in unperverted churches;--a word for which the arguments are strong, and which contributes in no small degree to the completeness of the force of the mystery? ​

(source)​

the first post is an example of early church teaching on authority.

 

[Josiah]

Self insisting that self uniquely is unaccountable, infallible, and whatever self uniquely says is just to be swallowed whole is cause to RUN, not walk, RUN. See the Catholic Catechism # 87 where it itself indicates what all should do with the views of it itself uniquely. Read about Jim Jones.

 

[psalms 91]

kool aid anyone? lol

 

[MoreCoffee]

One cannot help but think that Jones Town was in fact a place where history was eschewed - a place in which the teachings of the early Christians (like the teaching of saint Basil) was not followed but where the people chose to follow the teaching of their leaders without reference to the past. Isn't the reference to Kool Aid drawn from the mass suicide/murders in that place? Anyway, refusing the lessons of history (both lessons about good and bad beliefs/conduct) appears to lead to repeating the errors of history. Choosing one's current crop of ideals without examining if they measure up against past experience may appeal to some but not to the faithful body of Christ. The thing is that Christ himself lived a long time ago if following his example is the ideal for the faithful then learning what his example meant from those with whom he lived and those with whom the apostles lived is what is needed. Not everything that Christ did is written in the inspired holy scriptures and that is worth remembering. Having regard for what is written alone and not also learning from what was said and done but not written is a sure path to receiving a diminished knowledge of the Saviour.

(source for kool aid)

 

[popsthebuilder]

Christians prayed facing East because the Lord said "as the lightning flashes out of the east ... so shall the coming of the Son of Man be" similar imagery is used elsewhere in sacred scripture to describe the rising of God to save his people in the last days. And the sun rises in the east which probably played a role in the biblical language about God and the return of Christ.

Matthew 24:27 For just as lightning goes out from the east, and appears even in the west, so shall it be also at the advent of the Son of man.

I thought that last verse you quoted was a reference for the second coming, and basically states that the Christ will be everywhere, in all, not some secret place that must be sought out, but within the truly faithful.

Just opinion based on the reading of scripture and some other things though.

Humbly, peace

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