The RCC Claim

Faith

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I don’t think all Catholics say this, wanting power. I think many of them heard this for years like I did and believe it to be true.
 

Faith

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That one is even better (later). Either way both dogmas I mentioned were pronounced in the 1800s, and were subjects of heated debates within Catholicism before that.
ok, so why then do so many Catholics not seem to know this?
 
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Albion

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Can you give some examples of their teachings and structure that has changed since Apostolic times?
Papal Supremacy
Papal Infallibility
Transubstantiation
Purgatory
Indulgences
Seven Sacraments
Worship of the host in Solemn Benediction
College of Cardinals
Clerical Celibacy
 

Faith

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Papal Supremacy
Papal Infallibility
Transubstantiation
Purgatory
Indulgences
Seven Sacraments
Worship of the host in Solemn Benediction
College of Cardinals
Clerical Celibacy
Wait a minute....transubstantiation is a fancy way of saying the bread and wine are turned into Jesus’s body and blood. And it says it in the Bible, though Lutherans believe it remains bread and wine and becomes the body and blood of Jesus. Or something like that.
 
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ok, so why then do so many Catholics not seem to know this?
Catholics believe a teaching is correct because the Catholic church is the correct, one and only Church established by Jesus Christ, not the other way around. That is why it is so important for Catholics to state that their church is the true church - it gives the ultimate legitimacy to their doctrines. The more knowledgeable Catholics I know are fully aware of this, and accept it, because they understand the CC to have the authority to define new doctrine.
 

Albion

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Wait a minute....transubstantiation is a fancy way of saying the bread and wine are turned into Jesus’s body and blood.

That's right, and it was an innovation dating only from the Middle Ages. The Apostolic belief was what we call "Real Presence."
And it says it in the Bible, though Lutherans believe it remains bread and wine and becomes the body and blood of Jesus. Or something like that.
That's not correct. No other denomination of significance believes in Transubstantiation, not the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Methodists, not even the Orthodox although in typical fashion, they hedge.

Transubstantiation is, as you said, the elements being turned into something else. And there is then no more bread and wine, despite appearances.

It's that last part that no other church accepts, and it was a new twist on Real Presence appearing only during the Middle Ages. The RCC made it a doctrine in 1215.
 

Josiah

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And how do we know that particular church is the oldest?


I've read that there is a parish in Syria that can pretty well trace it's history to St. Paul. It would be a candidate. But who cares what congregation or denomination is "oldest" (as if "oldest" = infallible, all powerful Lord over everything).

ALL the EOC denominations claim to be (in a sense) founded by Jesus but they accept that they ALL were (not just one of them), the RCC specifically (and exclusively) claims this, the LDS claims this (but only after the first denomination He founded went apostate - the LDS agreeing that being founded by Jesus has nothing to do with being infallible or authoritative or correct, it too can go apostate and be abandoned by God).

But seriously, I don't think denominations matter all that much. There are thousands of them... some probably going back only to last week, some centuries. The church I care about is the only one the Creed speaks of: the one, holy, catholic church... the communion of saints, the community of believers, the union of all brothers and sisters in Christ. The RCC believes in this church too (just buries thing behind its baseless, egotistical, denominational claims to Authority and Power and Dominion and lording it other others as the gentile do - to be not nice about it, LOL). In the church catholic, JESUS is the head (He never resigned).... all with the gift of faith are members (even those now in heaven).... one Lord, one faith (in
Christ as Savior), one baptism. Sadly, we are not one in doctrine (the RCC is united with NOTHING but itself in this regard... same can be said of many denominations) but we are one in faith (faith that is in Christ).



.
 

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The Church.....


The ancient Creed affirms that we believe in “one holy catholic church.” The word “catholic” here is an adjective (as it only was in the early centuries of Christianity) meaning “universal, whole, complete, general, all-embracing” and should not be confused with a proper name of a denominational institution that applied the adjective to itself later.

We affirm the “mystical union of all believers,” “the communion of saints,” the “community of faith.” ALL believers in Jesus – across the centuries and continents – are united by our common faith in Christ as our Savior, united into the “household” or “family” of God, united as the “Body of Christ.” This communion, the church, this family is not limited by time or geography or institutional affiliations. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The church is CHRISTIANS – in this sense, not an institution. Pardon the grammar, but “It’s not Jesus and ME, it’s Jesus and WE.” This is the primary and foremost meaning of “church.” See Ephesians 2:19-22, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Peter 2:9, Romans 12:4, Ephesians 1:1, Luke 17:21, etc.

Jesus founded the church catholic but not The Catholic Church. The church is not an it, the church is us.

We affirm in the Creeds that this corpus of Christians (past and present) is “one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.” Christians are bound together as one community of faith in Christ. We are holy because through this faith in Christ we are forgiven, we are catholic because together we are the whole corpus of believers, and we are a communion or community or fellowship of saints (those made so by faith in Christ). See Matthew 16:18, 1 Peter 2:5 & 9, Mark 16:15, Romans 15:25, 1 Cor. 14:33 and 16:1, Eph. 1:1).



Congregations…

Christians usually associate together, congregating or assembling typically for the purposes of public worship, mutual cooperation, edification, support and accountability. Such a gathering in a given place and time is technically called a “congregation” (although the term “church” may be used here in a secondary sense as in First Baptist Church of Snowflake Arizona; this use is seen in Scripture, too – see Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1). These associations may assume some institutional aspects but the “church” is the people, not the institution. Actually, the Christians who associate in that congregation are but a small, tiny part of the “church catholic” – the whole number of believers, past and present.

By their very nature, congregations include non-believers in their midst (some seekers, some “hypocrites”), Matthew 13:47-49 seems to indicate we should not be too obsessed about that, just preach the word and love all people (God will sort it all out). Of course, clearly unrepentant sinners and heretics should not be embraced since they can harm or even destroy the fellowship, and give a “false witness” to the community.

Because Christians are spread out all over the world, it’s no surprise that that are literally millions of congregations – some huge, some tiny, some with institutional aspects, some just an informal gathering in a living room. Several congregations are mentioned in the New Testament (Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 1:2, Revelation 1:4, etc.).

A good congregation is where the Word is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered. Too often, people join (and leave) congregations for reasons that are secondary – at best! They may even overlook the important thing for irrelevant things.

The function of the church is to teach (Matthew 28:20, Deuteronomy 6:7, 2 Timothy 4:2), make disciples (Matthew 28:19, Ephesians 4:12-13, Acts 1:8, 1 Peter 2:9), worship (Hebrews 10:24-15), share Holy Communion (Acts 2:42), forgive the repentant (Matthew 18:21-22, Matthew 18:15-20), offer comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3-4), care for the sick and needy (James 5:14, etc.), encourage and hold each other accountable (1 Thessalonians 5:14), serve and minister for the Gospel since ALL CHRISTIANS are ministers – everyone is a part of the team (1 Corinthians 12:4-26, 1 Peter 4:10). It is a cooperative, community, US ministry. To misquote President Kennedy, “Ask not what your church can do for you, ask what you can do for your church!”


Denominations…

Congregations (see above) may be denominational or non-denominational. Those are the only two options.

“Non-denominational” congregations are autonomous, independent, isolated and separate – with no formal relationship with any other congregation and with no accountability beyond itself.

“Denominational” congregations have bonded together with others in a formal manner, usually for reasons similar to why Christians bonded together with others in congregations. These congregations work and serve together, provide mutual accountability and support, etc.

The denomination that my congregation belongs to (The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod), for example, helped start our congregation (financially, too!), loaned us the money to build our facilities, trained and supervises our pastor, operates two seminaries and a dozen colleges and the largest Lutheran publishing house in the world, sends out missionaries all around the world – and much more. Congregations working together to do things each cannot fully do on its own. Our denomination consists of about 7,000 congregations in the USA.

Usually denominations have a common “Confession” (statements of doctrines and beliefs), a common name and a common governance and polity. In some, this is well developed and regarded as binding, in some it’s all pretty loose with a lot of “room” for the local congregation to apply such as they see best.

There are no examples of denominations in the New Testament. While some historians argue there were none until the 4th century, we do see at least some very elementary aspects of cooperation in the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) and the collection for the saints. For the first 300 years, Christianity was an illegal, “underground” religion – more a movement than anything, often “on the run” and meeting informally and occasionally even secretly in “house churches.” This changed when Christianity was made legal and then the official Roman religion in the 4th century. At that time, clearly most congregations within the Roman Empire became a denomination (although it would officially split in 1054 and functionally long before that) but even then, many congregations were not part of this state institution. Never have all congregations been in one denomination.

Today, there are literally thousands of denominations, although about 90% of Christians are in 8 groupings of such. The fact is there are billions of Christian people, millions of congregations and thousands of denominations - but this has no relevance to the fact that there is ONE, holy, catholic, communion of saints. Irrespective of our institutions, WE are ONE by virtue of our one Lord Jesus, our one faith in Christ, our one baptism (Ephesians 4:5-6, Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:25, 1 Corinthians 10:17 and 12:12-26).

There can be "families" of denominations - separate denominations but with a shared history and perhaps shared Confessions. The LCMS and ELCA for example are different, very separate denominations (they don't even especially like each other, lol) BUT both are part of the Lutheran community, tracing their history to Martin Luther and sharing the same Lutheran Confessions. There are dozens of Baptist denominations, but all within the Baptist community or family. Sometimes "denomination" is used in this sense, too.



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Faith

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The Church.....


The ancient Creed affirms that we believe in “one holy catholic church.” The word “catholic” here is an adjective (as it only was in the early centuries of Christianity) meaning “universal, whole, complete, general, all-embracing” and should not be confused with a proper name of a denominational institution that applied the adjective to itself later.

We affirm the “mystical union of all believers,” “the communion of saints,” the “community of faith.” ALL believers in Jesus – across the centuries and continents – are united by our common faith in Christ as our Savior, united into the “household” or “family” of God, united as the “Body of Christ.” This communion, the church, this family is not limited by time or geography or institutional affiliations. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The church is CHRISTIANS – in this sense, not an institution. Pardon the grammar, but “It’s not Jesus and ME, it’s Jesus and WE.” This is the primary and foremost meaning of “church.” See Ephesians 2:19-22, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Peter 2:9, Romans 12:4, Ephesians 1:1, Luke 17:21, etc.

We affirm in the Creeds that this corpus of Christians (past and present) is “one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.” Christians are bound together as one community of faith in Christ. We are holy because through this faith in Christ we are forgiven, we are catholic because together we are the whole corpus of believers, and we are a communion or community or fellowship of saints (those made so by faith in Christ). See Matthew 16:18, 1 Peter 2:5 & 9, Mark 16:15, Romans 15:25, 1 Cor. 14:33 and 16:1, Eph. 1:1).



Congregations…

Christians usually associate together, congregating or assembling typically for the purposes of public worship, mutual cooperation, edification, support and accountability. Such a gathering in a given place and time is technically called a “congregation” (although the term “church” may be used here in a secondary sense as in First Baptist Church of Snowflake Arizona; this use is seen in Scripture, too – see Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1). These associations may assume some institutional aspects but the “church” is the people, not the institution. Actually, the Christians who associate in that congregation are but a small, tiny part of the “church catholic” – the whole number of believers, past and present.

By their very nature, congregations include non-believers in their midst (some seekers, some “hypocrites”), Matthew 13:47-49 seems to indicate we should not be too obsessed about that, just preach the word and love all people (God will sort it all out). Of course, clearly unrepentant sinners and heretics should not be embraced since they can harm or even destroy the fellowship, and give a “false witness” to the community.

Because Christians are spread out all over the world, it’s no surprise that that are literally millions of congregations – some huge, some tiny, some with institutional aspects, some just an informal gathering in a living room. Several congregations are mentioned in the New Testament (Galatians 1:2, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 1:2, Revelation 1:4, etc.).

A good congregation is where the Word is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered. Too often, people join (and leave) congregations for reasons that are secondary – at best! They may even overlook the important thing for irrelevant things.

The function of the church is to teach (Matthew 28:20, Deuteronomy 6:7, 2 Timothy 4:2), make disciples (Matthew 28:19, Ephesians 4:12-13, Acts 1:8, 1 Peter 2:9), worship (Hebrews 10:24-15), share Holy Communion (Acts 2:42), forgive the repentant (Matthew 18:21-22, Matthew 18:15-20), offer comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3-4), care for the sick and needy (James 5:14, etc.), encourage and hold each other accountable (1 Thessalonians 5:14), serve and minister for the Gospel since ALL CHRISTIANS are ministers – everyone is a part of the team (1 Corinthians 12:4-26, 1 Peter 4:10). It is a cooperative, community, US ministry. To misquote President Kennedy, “Ask not what your church can do for you, ask what you can do for your church!”


Denominations…

Congregations (see above) may be denominational or non-denominational. Those are the only two options.

“Non-denominational” congregations are autonomous, independent, isolated and separate – with no formal relationship with any other congregation and with no accountability beyond itself.

“Denominational” congregations have bonded together with others in a formal manner, usually for reasons similar to why Christians bonded together with others in congregations. These congregations work and serve together, provide mutual accountability and support, etc.

The denomination that my congregation belongs to (The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod), for example, helped start our congregation (financially, too!), loaned us the money to build our facilities, trained and supervises our pastor, operates two seminaries and a dozen colleges and the largest Lutheran publishing house in the world, sends out missionaries all around the world – and much more. Congregations working together to do things each cannot fully do on its own. Our denomination consists of about 7,000 congregations in the USA.

Usually denominations have a common “Confession” (statements of doctrines and beliefs), a common name and a common governance and polity. In some, this is well developed and regarded as binding, in some it’s all pretty loose with a lot of “room” for the local congregation to apply such as they see best.

There are no examples of denominations in the New Testament. While some historians argue there were none until the 4th century, we do see at least some very elementary aspects of cooperation in the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) and the collection for the saints. For the first 300 years, Christianity was an illegal, “underground” religion – more a movement than anything, often “on the run” and meeting informally and occasionally even secretly in “house churches.” This changed when Christianity was made legal and then the official Roman religion in the 4th century. At that time, clearly most congregations within the Roman Empire became a denomination (although it would officially split in 1054 and functionally long before that) but even then, many congregations were not part of this state institution. Never have all congregations been in one denomination.

Today, there are literally thousands of denominations, although about 90% of Christians are in 8 groupings of such. The fact is there are billions of Christian people, millions of congregations and thousands of denominations - but this has no relevance to the fact that there is ONE, holy, catholic, communion of saints. Irrespective of our institutions, WE are ONE by virtue of our one Lord Jesus, our one faith in Christ, our one baptism (Ephesians 4:5-6, Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:25, 1 Corinthians 10:17 and 12:12-26).

There can be "families" of denominations - separate denominations but with a shared history and perhaps shared Confessions. The LCMS and ELCA for example are different, very separate denominations (they don't even especially like each other, lol) BUT both are part of the Lutheran community, tracing their history to Martin Luther and sharing the same Lutheran Confessions. There are dozens of Baptist denominations, but all within the Baptist community or family. Sometimes "denomination" is used in this sense, too.



.
Does the dictionary differentiate between catholic and Catholic?

Would the Lutheran Church, particularly the LCMS be considered large?

Do Lutheran pastors have as much or nearly as much study and training as priests do?
 

Andrew

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It seems that the catechism is confirming that the church started by Jesus who passed things along to Peter who passed things along to......
The rock represents foundation

Peter proclaimed "you are the Messiah, the Son of the living God"

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

When you confess with your lips "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior" and believe, you have solid faith, rock solid, the spirit of Godly Faith, if Peter being the first to confess made him a Pope then that makes us all Popes

I am Pope Andrew the 764,824,122th
 

Josiah

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Does the dictionary differentiate between catholic and Catholic?

Well, one is an adjective and the other is a proper noun (part of the legal moniker of a corporation).

BTW, while a few radical Catholics like to confuse the two, all my Catholic teachers (and family and friends) admit the difference. In the Creed, my parish always put this with a lower case "c" because of the honesty that the Creed is speaking of the universal church not any denomination. But you will find those radicals who like to confuse these so as to imply that their denomination is the authoritative lord over all.




Would the Lutheran Church, particularly the LCMS be considered large?


As denominations so, not small.



Do Lutheran pastors have as much or nearly as much study and training as priests do?


Generally, it's the same. Not only between Lutheran and Catholic but in most mainstream denominations in the USA. All have "alternate routes" but the general approach is 4 years of college (a Bachelor degree) with proficiency in biblical Hebrew and koine Greek, then 4 years of seminary (often including a year of internship). Some pastors, of course, do more (mine has a doctorate).

In some "Evangelical" denominations, it's just "Bible College" (generally 2 years).



BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD.....



.

.
 

Albion

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Does the dictionary differentiate between catholic and Catholic?
Certainly.

Catholic
a.
Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.

(from The Free Dictionary, emphasis mine)
Would the Lutheran Church, particularly the LCMS be considered large?
By comparison with other Protestant church bodies in the USA, yes.
Do Lutheran pastors have as much or nearly as much study and training as priests do?
Almost no other church bodies require as much formal training of their candidates for the ministry as the RCC does, but the Confessional Lutheran seminaries are well-respected.
 

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Currently on the Catholic board and really, anytime I read a Catholic position, they claim that the RCC was established by Christ, Himself. Is this true? I know Martin Luther started out as a Catholic priest but disagreed with the RCC on several things, particularly indulgences. So was the RCC established by Jesus?

I think that the church as a whole was established by Christ. But the churches have backslidden in several ways throughout the years. And in 1500 years you can have a LOT of backsliding!

So, no, I don’t think that the “Catholic” church today is something Christ himself established. I think that the church is what Christ established, and the Catholic Church is just a backslidden, corrupted version of it.

But that’s not to say that they don’t do some good things, or that they’re not right about at least some things.
 

pinacled

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Certainly.

Catholic
a.
Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.

(from The Free Dictionary, emphasis mine)

By comparison with other Protestant church bodies in the USA, yes.

Almost no other church bodies require as much formal training of their candidates for the ministry as the RCC does, but the Confessional Lutheran seminaries are well-respected.
Jesuits will visit a forum and self degrade Catholicism in order to get a feel for the environment.
Once they have a grip their motives will abruptly change course from assault to occultation.
Meaning they will say that universalism is a church .

And that they are believers the same as all others
 

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The rock represents foundation

Peter proclaimed "you are the Messiah, the Son of the living God"

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

When you confess with your lips "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior" and believe, you have solid faith, rock solid, the spirit of Godly Faith, if Peter being the first to confess made him a Pope then that makes us all Popes

I am Pope Andrew the 764,824,122th

I vote for Pope Andrew.
 

pinacled

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I vote for Pope Andrew.
Popes are roman serpents upon the isle that ole sh'aul visited and found venom and a lack of lips

I'll speak in place of michael

Acts 28
 
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Andrew

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Popes are roman serpents upon the isle that ole sh'aul visited and found venom and a lack of lips

I'll speak in place of michael

Acts 28
Do you really find it necessary to constantly troll every thread im in with such unwarranted negativity?
 

Faith

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Popes are roman serpents upon the isle that ole sh'aul visited and found venom and a lack of lips

I'll speak in place of michael

Acts 28
I don’t know what you’re talking about.
 

Josiah

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Wait a minute....transubstantiation is a fancy way of saying the bread and wine are turned into Jesus’s body and blood. And it says it in the Bible, though Lutherans believe it remains bread and wine and becomes the body and blood of Jesus. Or something like that.


HOPE1960


No.

Since the 16th Century, the Catholic (big "C") dogma is that the bread and wine CEASE to exist (except as "Aristotelian Accidents") because at the words and actions of a Catholic (big "C") priest, they undergo a very specific CHANGE via an alchemic "Transubstantiation". As a result of this bit of alchemy, we end up with body and blood and some Aristotelian Accidents of bread and wine. The word "IS" in the Bible actually should be "CHANGED via alchemic transubstantiation" when referring to bread/wine....or "Seems like but actually is just an Aristotelian Accident."

The Lutheran position is that by a miracle of God, Christ's Body and Blood become present in the Holy Eucharist. Nothing happens to the bread and wine (at least in any physical sense) which is why the Bible refers to them as "bread" and "wine" more often after the Consecration than before. The word "IS" means "is" when referring both to Body and Blood and bread and wine throughout the eucharistic text. The Lutheran position is called "Real Presence" because it affirms the real presence of Christ's Body and Blood, the Catholic Dogma is called Transubstantiation because it affirm that the bread and wine aren't present because they underwent an alchemic transubstantiation.

I can explain this more fully, if desired, but it's kind of off topic in this thread (and will likely derail it)




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Faith

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HOPE1960


No.

Since the 16th Century, the Catholic (big "C") dogma is that the bread and wine CEASE to exist (except as "Aristotelian Accidents") because at the words and actions of a Catholic (big "C") priest, they undergo a very specific CHANGE via an alchemic "Transubstantiation". As a result of this bit of alchemy, we end up with body and blood and some Aristotelian Accidents of bread and wine. The word "IS" in the Bible actually should be "CHANGED via alchemic transubstantiation" when referring to bread/wine....or "Seems like but actually is just an Aristotelian Accident."

The Lutheran position is that by a miracle of God, Christ's Body and Blood become present in the Holy Eucharist. Nothing happens to the bread and wine (at least in any physical sense) which is why the Bible refers to them as "bread" and "wine" more often after the Consecration than before. The word "IS" means "is" when referring both to Body and Blood and bread and wine throughout the eucharistic text. The Lutheran position is called "Real Presence" because it affirms the real presence of Christ's Body and Blood, the Catholic Dogma is called Transubstantiation because it affirm that the bread and wine aren't present because they underwent an alchemic transubstantiation.

I can explain this more fully, if desired, but it's kind of off topic in this thread (and will likely derail it)




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You have my permission to derail the thread. I think the answer to my OP is that Jesus started Christianity but did not start Catholicism or any other denomination, correct?
Now, more about transubstantiation. I kind of get it but have a difficult time putting it into words. I will say that for the last few years that I was Catholic I thought the Lutheran belief made much more sense. I struggled with the Catholic belief that bread and wine ceasing to exist when I received them in my mouth.
Sometimes I miss the RCC, though. When that happens I watch a Mass online and then I’m reminded of why I left.
 
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