The Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ

[BruceLeiter]

Meh!

Do some research rather than spitting out the same old old anti-Catholic tropes

Please answer my question instead of putting on me the burden of proof. What about the added tradition added to the Bible by the Popes? Did they do that or not? If they did, why?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Please answer my question instead of putting on me the burden of proof. What about the added tradition added to the Bible by the Popes? Did they do that or not? If they did, why?

What Tradition would that be?

 

[BruceLeiter]

What Tradition would that be?

Well, the Bible doesn't say anything about purgatory, Mary's birth, that we should pray to her, what the role is for the saints, or other doctrines that Popes have added to the Bible. That's the extra tradition I refer to.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, the Bible doesn't say anything about purgatory

1 Corinthians chapter three.

Mary's birth

I am confident that Blessed Mary was born, but I do not recall a Catholic tradition about her birth specifically, do you mean the immaculate conception? That is about Blessed Mary's conception rather than her birth.

that we should pray to her

I quite like asking Blessed Mary to pray for me.

what the role is for the saints

The saints are mentioned many times in the New Testament, they watch us (the great cloud of witnesses) they pray about and for us (saints under the altar in Revelation) and we ask them to pray for us (the prayers of a righteous man avail much.

or other doctrines that Popes have added to the Bible.

I do not think any Pope added any doctrine to the bible.

 

[Frankj]

I quite like asking Blessed Mary to pray for me.

The saints are mentioned many times in the New Testament, they watch us (the great cloud of witnesses) they pray about and for us (saints under the altar in Revelation) and we ask them to pray for us (the prayers of a righteous man avail much.

This is something I have a difficult time with about Catholicism.

First it seems to go against the First Commandment in that it puts something ahead of God.

Second, it seems dangerously close to necromancy which is a forbidden practice. Consider the Witch of Endor and Saul consulting the dead through her.

Third, it is praying to the dead to do something for you when the Bible specifically says the dead
know nothing meaning they are not conscious beings that are somehow aware of us and can act on our behalf.

How do you reconcile these things with your beliefs, I have never been able to do so without distorting and reinterpreting things that seem to make perfect sense to me as they are written.

 

[MoreCoffee]

First it seems to go against the First Commandment in that it puts something ahead of God.

Nonsense.
The saints are creatures and cannot be "ahead" of God. They are his flock, the people he shepherds.

Second, it seems dangerously close to necromancy which is a forbidden practice.

Jesus spoke with Moses (who died) and Elijah (who was taken up), if this is necromancy and if necromancy is a sin as you said it is, then you've accused God of sin.

Third, it is praying to the dead to do something for you when the Bible specifically says the dead

Jesus said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and then he observed that God is the God of the living and not of the dead; clearly God sees Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as living people.

 

[Lanman87]

1 Corinthians chapter three.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Nothing about purgatory in that.

It is about what happens on "the Day" (which is not death but the final judgement) to all believers. What we have done will be judged and what was done for Christ we be rewarded and what was not done for Christ will be "burned in the fire". Nothing about a place that believers go immediately after death to have their venial sins "purged" before they can go to heaven.

This passage is about being rewarded for working for Christ and how work not done for Christ will not be rewarded. All the efforts building with wood, hay, and stubble will be for nothing and without reward (suffer loss).

they pray about and for us (saints under the altar in Revelation)

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

Nothing about them praying for those on the earth. It specifically says the saints were those "who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained", so I'm assuming Mary, Augustine, Pope John Paul II, and most of who the Catholic church has named as saints aren't "Under the Alter". It also tells us what they are praying, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?

 

[BruceLeiter]

1 Corinthians chapter three.

I am confident that Blessed Mary was born, but I do not recall a Catholic tradition about her birth specifically, do you mean the immaculate conception? That is about Blessed Mary's conception rather than her birth.

I quite like asking Blessed Mary to pray for me.

The saints are mentioned many times in the New Testament, they watch us (the great cloud of witnesses) they pray about and for us (saints under the altar in Revelation) and we ask them to pray for us (the prayers of a righteous man avail much.


I do not think any Pope added any doctrine to the bible.

Then, what does the "immaculate conception" mean? I learned that it was Mary's conception so that Jesus' conception could be pure. Nothing in the Bible indicates that to be the case.

You may like praying to Mary, but how can you be sure that she is listening as a human soul in heaven? She is not divine. Besides, Jesus taught us to pray to our heavenly Father in the Lord's Prayer, not to Mary or the saints.

Again, how can you be sure the human souls of the saints hear you and will pray for you. They aren't present everywhere, the way God is. You have no biblical basis for praying to Mary and to the saints at all, but there is a basis for praying to the Father through Jesus.

The "great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12 are the Old Testament believers of the previous chapter. Do you pray to Abraham?

The Popes have added all of this plus purgatory and other beliefs to the Bible.

 

[Lanman87]

The "great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12 are the Old Testament believers of the previous chapter. Do you pray to Abraham?

I agree with this. In the previous chapter the writer list the "Hall of fame of faith" if you take out the chapter break it looks like this

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith

This is not a witness/spectator that is standing and viewing someone or something. This is not describing saints standing in a cosmic stadium looking down on us and we play out our life. They are witnesses giving testimony to the truth. In this case the "cloud of witnesses" are those who came before who trusted in God and show us, by their faithfulness, the goodness and faithfulness of God.

The application is that if those who came before had such great faith, even though they didn't know Christ, then we should be even more sure in our faith because we have Christ, who is the "author and perfecter" of our faith.