The Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ

[BruceLeiter]

Meh!

Do some research rather than spitting out the same old old anti-Catholic tropes

Please answer my question instead of putting on me the burden of proof. What about the added tradition added to the Bible by the Popes? Did they do that or not? If they did, why?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Please answer my question instead of putting on me the burden of proof. What about the added tradition added to the Bible by the Popes? Did they do that or not? If they did, why?

What Tradition would that be?

 

[BruceLeiter]

What Tradition would that be?

Well, the Bible doesn't say anything about purgatory, Mary's birth, that we should pray to her, what the role is for the saints, or other doctrines that Popes have added to the Bible. That's the extra tradition I refer to.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, the Bible doesn't say anything about purgatory

1 Corinthians chapter three.

Mary's birth

I am confident that Blessed Mary was born, but I do not recall a Catholic tradition about her birth specifically, do you mean the immaculate conception? That is about Blessed Mary's conception rather than her birth.

that we should pray to her

I quite like asking Blessed Mary to pray for me.

what the role is for the saints

The saints are mentioned many times in the New Testament, they watch us (the great cloud of witnesses) they pray about and for us (saints under the altar in Revelation) and we ask them to pray for us (the prayers of a righteous man avail much.

or other doctrines that Popes have added to the Bible.

I do not think any Pope added any doctrine to the bible.

 

[Frankj]

I quite like asking Blessed Mary to pray for me.

The saints are mentioned many times in the New Testament, they watch us (the great cloud of witnesses) they pray about and for us (saints under the altar in Revelation) and we ask them to pray for us (the prayers of a righteous man avail much.

This is something I have a difficult time with about Catholicism.

First it seems to go against the First Commandment in that it puts something ahead of God.

Second, it seems dangerously close to necromancy which is a forbidden practice. Consider the Witch of Endor and Saul consulting the dead through her.

Third, it is praying to the dead to do something for you when the Bible specifically says the dead
know nothing meaning they are not conscious beings that are somehow aware of us and can act on our behalf.

How do you reconcile these things with your beliefs, I have never been able to do so without distorting and reinterpreting things that seem to make perfect sense to me as they are written.

 

[MoreCoffee]

First it seems to go against the First Commandment in that it puts something ahead of God.

Nonsense.
The saints are creatures and cannot be "ahead" of God. They are his flock, the people he shepherds.

Second, it seems dangerously close to necromancy which is a forbidden practice.

Jesus spoke with Moses (who died) and Elijah (who was taken up), if this is necromancy and if necromancy is a sin as you said it is, then you've accused God of sin.

Third, it is praying to the dead to do something for you when the Bible specifically says the dead

Jesus said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and then he observed that God is the God of the living and not of the dead; clearly God sees Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as living people.

 

[Lanman87]

1 Corinthians chapter three.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Nothing about purgatory in that.

It is about what happens on "the Day" (which is not death but the final judgement) to all believers. What we have done will be judged and what was done for Christ we be rewarded and what was not done for Christ will be "burned in the fire". Nothing about a place that believers go immediately after death to have their venial sins "purged" before they can go to heaven.

This passage is about being rewarded for working for Christ and how work not done for Christ will not be rewarded. All the efforts building with wood, hay, and stubble will be for nothing and without reward (suffer loss).

they pray about and for us (saints under the altar in Revelation)

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

Nothing about them praying for those on the earth. It specifically says the saints were those "who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained", so I'm assuming Mary, Augustine, Pope John Paul II, and most of who the Catholic church has named as saints aren't "Under the Alter". It also tells us what they are praying, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?

 

[BruceLeiter]

1 Corinthians chapter three.

I am confident that Blessed Mary was born, but I do not recall a Catholic tradition about her birth specifically, do you mean the immaculate conception? That is about Blessed Mary's conception rather than her birth.

I quite like asking Blessed Mary to pray for me.

The saints are mentioned many times in the New Testament, they watch us (the great cloud of witnesses) they pray about and for us (saints under the altar in Revelation) and we ask them to pray for us (the prayers of a righteous man avail much.


I do not think any Pope added any doctrine to the bible.

Then, what does the "immaculate conception" mean? I learned that it was Mary's conception so that Jesus' conception could be pure. Nothing in the Bible indicates that to be the case.

You may like praying to Mary, but how can you be sure that she is listening as a human soul in heaven? She is not divine. Besides, Jesus taught us to pray to our heavenly Father in the Lord's Prayer, not to Mary or the saints.

Again, how can you be sure the human souls of the saints hear you and will pray for you. They aren't present everywhere, the way God is. You have no biblical basis for praying to Mary and to the saints at all, but there is a basis for praying to the Father through Jesus.

The "great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12 are the Old Testament believers of the previous chapter. Do you pray to Abraham?

The Popes have added all of this plus purgatory and other beliefs to the Bible.

 

[Lanman87]

The "great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12 are the Old Testament believers of the previous chapter. Do you pray to Abraham?

I agree with this. In the previous chapter the writer list the "Hall of fame of faith" if you take out the chapter break it looks like this

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith

This is not a witness/spectator that is standing and viewing someone or something. This is not describing saints standing in a cosmic stadium looking down on us and we play out our life. They are witnesses giving testimony to the truth. In this case the "cloud of witnesses" are those who came before who trusted in God and show us, by their faithfulness, the goodness and faithfulness of God.

The application is that if those who came before had such great faith, even though they didn't know Christ, then we should be even more sure in our faith because we have Christ, who is the "author and perfecter" of our faith.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nothing about purgatory in that.

Nothing about purging, eh? Take a second look, please. What do you think a refining fire does?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then, what does the "immaculate conception" mean?

Well, you could use google to search out the dogma of the immaculate conception and then you'd know what it means. I do not mean to be brisk with you, but a little preparation before asking a question is helpful.

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception says that at the very moment of Mary’s conception, both her soul and her body were created without the stain of Original Sin; they were immaculate.

 

[Frankj]

Well, you could use google to search out the dogma of the immaculate conception and then you'd know what it means. I do not mean to be brisk with you, but a little preparation before asking a question is helpful.

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception says that at the very moment of Mary’s conception, both her soul and her body were created without the stain of Original Sin; they were immaculate.

How was this done, was not Mary conceived of a man the same as all others in history except Jesus whose father was God?

And how do I find it in scripture?

 

[MoreCoffee]

How was this done, was not Mary conceived of a man the same as all others in history except Jesus whose father was God?

And how do I find it in scripture?

Start by buying a proper bible, one with an Old Testament instead of a Tanakh.

 

[Lanman87]

Nothing about purging, eh? Take a second look, please. What do you think a refining fire does?

I didn't say "nothing about purging". I said nothing about "purgatory".

Specifically I said, "Nothing about a place that believers go immediately after death to have their venial sins "purged" before they can go to heaven."

The purging is of our works that are made of wood, hay, and stubble.

Here are some differences in the Catholic concept of Purgatory and 1 Corth 3:10-15

1. What takes place in the passage takes place on "the day" of final judgement, not immediately after death.
2. The passage describes an action by God, not a specific place
3. The passage is about judging our works, not about our sins
4. The passage is about how our works will either be lasting and rewarded or unworthy, temporary, and destroyed. Sin isn't mentioned in the passage at all.

The first concepts of purgatory did not come from Christianity or Judaism. It came from Greek Philosophy. The two most prominent passages about a type of purgatory is from Plato in The Republic Book X and in Virgil's Aeneid. The concept crept its way in the Christianity as more Romans and Hellenized Jews became converts.

The concept seemed to be taking hold in the 4th and 5th Century. Even Saint Augustine isn't sure about it.

It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire” Augustine Handbook of Faith, Hope, and Love Chapter 69

“But if it be said that in the interval of time between the death of this body and that last day of judgment and retribution which shall follow the resurrection, the bodies of the dead shall be exposed to a fire of such a nature that it shall not affect those who have not in this life indulged in such pleasures and pursuits as shall be consumed like wood, hay, stubble…this I do not contradict, because possibly it is true” Augustine City of God Book 21, Chapter 26

So we see that in the lifetime of Augustine Purgatory was starting to be preached and great thinkers like Augustine were trying to figure out if it was true or not. If nothing else, this shows that purgatory was not part of the deposit of faith taught by the Apostles and handed on to the church.

I personally believe it came from influential theologians and bishops who were influenced by Greek Philosophy, they adapted the Greek concept of Purgatory to Christianity, and convinced others to accept purgatory as fact.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I didn't say "nothing about purging". I said nothing about "purgatory".

Purgatory is where one does the purging.

 

[Frankj]

Start by buying a proper bible, one with an Old Testament instead of a Tanakh.

I hate to sound adversarial, but your answer leads me to think maybe you can't answer my question and avoiding admitting it.

As for a proper Bible, can you suggest a Christian bible that doesn't have the old testament based on either the Vulgate (direct Latin translation of the Tanakh from Hebrew) or the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Tanakh from Hebrew)? I know of none.

But I will take your suggestion if you do, FWIW I have many translations available and generally consult multiple versions when I have any question regarding scriptural meanings.

 

[Frankj]

I didn't say "nothing about purging". I said nothing about "purgatory".

Specifically I said, "Nothing about a place that believers go immediately after death to have their venial sins "purged" before they can go to heaven."

The purging is of our works that are made of wood, hay, and stubble.

Here are some differences in the Catholic concept of Purgatory and 1 Corth 3:10-15

1. What takes place in the passage takes place on "the day" of final judgement, not immediately after death.
2. The passage describes an action by God, not a specific place
3. The passage is about judging our works, not about our sins
4. The passage is about how our works will either be lasting and rewarded or unworthy, temporary, and destroyed. Sin isn't mentioned in the passage at all.

The first concepts of purgatory did not come from Christianity or Judaism. It came from Greek Philosophy. The two most prominent passages about a type of purgatory is from Plato in The Republic Book X and in Virgil's Aeneid. The concept crept its way in the Christianity as more Romans and Hellenized Jews became converts.

The concept seemed to be taking hold in the 4th and 5th Century. Even Saint Augustine isn't sure about it.

It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire” Augustine Handbook of Faith, Hope, and Love Chapter 69

“But if it be said that in the interval of time between the death of this body and that last day of judgment and retribution which shall follow the resurrection, the bodies of the dead shall be exposed to a fire of such a nature that it shall not affect those who have not in this life indulged in such pleasures and pursuits as shall be consumed like wood, hay, stubble…this I do not contradict, because possibly it is true” Augustine City of God Book 21, Chapter 26

So we see that in the lifetime of Augustine Purgatory was starting to be preached and great thinkers like Augustine were trying to figure out if it was true or not. If nothing else, this shows that purgatory was not part of the deposit of faith taught by the Apostles and handed on to the church.

I personally believe it came from influential theologians and bishops who were influenced by Greek Philosophy, they adapted the Greek concept of Purgatory to Christianity, and convinced others to accept purgatory as fact.

FWIW, the original Jewish understanding of Gehenna could be considered similar to Purgatory since it is an intermediate condition as would be the Kabbalistic Jewish idea of the River of Fire (which, as all things Kabbalah, is not meant to be literal physical river full of fire but symbolic and representative of a further intense purifying of the soul after death before moving to a higher state.

 

[Lanman87]

FWIW, the original Jewish understanding of Gehenna could be considered similar to Purgatory since it is an intermediate condition as would be the Kabbalistic Jewish idea of the River of Fire (which, as all things Kabbalah, is not meant to be literal physical river full of fire but symbolic and representative of a further intense purifying of the soul after death before moving to a higher state.

Any Jewish idea of Purgatory developed in a similar way that the Christian idea of Purgatory developed. This is not surprising considering the influence and reach of the Greeks and later Roman cultures. But who knows, it could have been some Rabbi who came up with the concept and passed it on to the Greeks, doubtful but possible.

What we do know is that there is no concept of purgatory in the Mosaic Law, Psalms, or Prophets.

We also know that in the New Testament Jesus used Gehenna as a place of eternal punishment, not an intermediate place of purification. That is why Christians (including the Catholic church) teach the Gehenna is actually Hell.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I hate to sound adversarial, but your answer leads me to think maybe you can't answer my question and avoiding admitting it.

As for a proper Bible, can you suggest a Christian bible that doesn't have the old testament based on either the Vulgate (direct Latin translation of the Tanakh from Hebrew) or the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Tanakh from Hebrew)? I know of none.

But I will take your suggestion if you do, FWIW I have many translations available and generally consult multiple versions when I have any question regarding scriptural meanings.

Every bible from the ancient churches has an Old Testament and a New Testament, Protestants have a Tanakh and a New Testament.

 

[Frankj]

Every bible from the ancient churches has an Old Testament and a New Testament, Protestants have a Tanakh and a New Testament.

Now there's something that's gonna require a lot of support and explanation to make any sense at all..

And it still evades the original questions posed about Mary, the immaculate conception and supporting scripture.

But again you introduce a new idea of the bibles of the ancient church, that would mean pre Catholic beliefs which would make no sense since the Bible was first compiled into an old and new testaments form during the 4th century (and that would be the period of the Catholic Vulgate which has the Latin translation of the Tanakh )

I suggest you might reconsider your position and go back to answering the original questions I posed to keep the discussion on track.