The gods behind abortion

[hedrick]

Of course a human is more than biology. A human is made in the image of God. To willfully destroy a defenseless human is an act of defiance against God himself.

Then most of the arguments I've been reading from conservative Protestants don't make sense.

 

[MennoSota]

Then most of the arguments I've been reading from conservative Protestants don't make sense.

Stop reading arguments. Start reading your Bible.

 

[hedrick]

Stop reading arguments. Start reading your Bible.

The Bible doesn't say anything about abortion.

 

[Andrew]

The Bible doesn't say anything about abortion.

Thou shalt not murder

 

[hedrick]

Thou shalt not murder

You're going in circles. That assumes that a zygote or fetus is from an ethical point of view a human. Modern Protestants are using biology to justify that, which is that point I was making.

 

[Andrew]

You're going in circles. That doesn't answer the question of the ethical status of a zygote or fetus. Modern Protestants are using biology to answer that, which is that point I was making.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

God speaks of them like they are human, put two and two together

 

[MennoSota]

The Bible doesn't say anything about abortion.

The Bible says a lot about humans being made in God's image. It says a lot about humans being woven by God for His glory. How dare we kill what God chose to create in His image?

 

[kiwimac]

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

God speaks of them like they are human, put two and two together

Why does no one quote the rest of this passage? Because it applies ONLY to Jeremiah!

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[kiwimac]

The Bible says a lot about humans being made in God's image. It says a lot about humans being woven by God for His glory. How dare we kill what God chose to create in His image?

It is always and only the woman's decision to make.

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[Andrew]

Why does no one quote the rest of this passage? Because it applies ONLY to Jeremiah!

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Yes we know it's about Jeremiah! The point is that God had been with Jeremiah even when he was in the womb.. see how God didn't refer to him as a clump of cells in the womb? You know deep down that a child in the womb is still a child, a thumb sucking, tummy kicking, yawning little human.
Did you know that they scream and try to squirm and fidget away from the instruments? Or that the heart is being formed and begins beating within in 2 weeks?

 

[MennoSota]

It is always and only the woman's decision to make.

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Not at all. God uses both male and female to create humans in His image. God designed women to care for His created human for 9 months in her womb. Her decision to spit in God's face and reject His creation is worthy of all humanity weeping for the creation that is destroyed and for the rebel who spits in God's face. Many men are also responsible for pressuring women and paying for them to kill what God has created. Both the male and female whom God used to create a child are responsible for the decision of how they will care for or reject God's created human.

 

[Andrew]

BEFORE I (GOD) FORMED

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5

Does God suggest that he created Jeremiah from a clump of lifeless cells in the womb?

What if Mary had held your outlook?

 

[kiwimac]

BEFORE I (GOD) FORMED

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jeremiah 1:5

Does God suggest that he created Jeremiah from a clump of lifeless cells in the womb?

What if Mary had held your outlook?

The passage in Jeremiah refers ONLY to Jeremiah. Further being known in the womb does not stop over 50% of all fertilised eggs spontaneously aborting.

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[Andrew]

The passage in Jeremiah refers ONLY to Jeremiah. Further being known in the womb does not stop over 50% of all fertilised eggs spontaneously aborting.

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Which is it? Natural laws or man made secular laws?

We could end this conversation between you and I very swiftly, do you believe human life is formed inside or outside of the womb?

 

[Lamb]

There is something my pastor brought up in church yesterday that had nothing to do with Abortion but made me think of this thread when he said it. Jesus became flesh at the moment of His conception, not 9 months later when he was born. That's important to note in how the Jews considered life...it was always at conception. Not just a clump of cells.

 

[Josiah]

There is something my pastor brought up in church yesterday that had nothing to do with Abortion but made me think of this thread when he said it. Jesus became flesh at the moment of His conception, not 9 months later when he was born. That's important to note in how the Jews considered life...it was always at conception. Not just a clump of cells.

I might concede a bit that the Bible does not SPECIFICALLY STATE the life begins at conception (although I think it's MUCH, MUCH easier to show that implication than that it happens ONLY after the last bit of the toe exits the birth canal, the legal definition pro-abortions run with, although some Democrats insists that has nothing to do with it, it's when the mother CHOOSES to accept the child - which could be days later).


I'm NOT a biologist. I took NOT ONE course in biology in college (even as an undergrad) so I have ZERO authority to speak on this. But my sister has a Ph.D. in biology and works as a researcher at an Ivy League college. SHE (who probably could be considered an authority) insists that "LIFE" actually has no formal definition, BUT species are identified by their DNA. And it is undeniable (consider that word), it is indisputable, that the DNA of a fetus even from the moment of conception IS homo sapiens... there is NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER in the DNA that happens as the last cell of the toe exits the birth canal, indeed, NO change happens to the DNA during the pregnany AT ALL. She argues that there is NO BASIS WHATSOEVER in biology to argue that a fetus is not FULLY HUMAN. On this point, science is 100% ("undeniably.... indisputably") pro-life. We ARE speaking of a HUMAN BEING just as much as if we were speaking of a 30 year old.


As I understand it, there was a day when Planned Parenthood (begun so as to eliminate African Americans in the USA by ending births of them) argued that the unborn are not humans (many felt that Blacks - regardless of age - were not fully human). But they gave that up by the 1950's since NO BIOLOGIST on the planet could be found to agree with this point. Some TRY to say "this is just a blob of misc. cells that could just as much end up as a earwig or bunny or rattle snake) until the last bit of the toe exits the birth canal and THEN it suddenly becomes a human" but that's a hard sell today as parents watch their child moving around in the womb, sucking his thumb, kicking mom in the side to get her to roll over. It's undeniable. This IS a human. As much as you and I are. Perhaps unwanted but then a lot of people don't want Donald Trump, Hitler didn't want Jews. Does that mean murdering them is not only fully okay but the government should make it happen for you (and pay for it)?




https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?2256-Why-I-m-Pro-Life




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[hedrick]

That's important to note in how the Jews considered life...it was always at conception. Not just a clump of cells.

As far as I know, this is simply his assertion. I'm not aware of any reason to think it's true.

Matthew:
“Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,”
which means, “God is with us.”
When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife, but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.

There's no reference here to Jesus before his birth. There's conception, there's birth. Nothing between on which to base any conclusions.

The language in Luke is similar. Conception and birth. No statement about status. Mary's pregnancy is referred to as "expecting a child."

He'd have a better case to make if he referred to John the Baptist, who is said to have leaped in the womb. Personally I think that's non-literal, but at least there'd be some basis. But the ethical question behind abortion simply hadn't come up. Knowledge about development, spontaneous abortions, questions about when you consider a person brain-dead, you're not going to find these in the Bible. Trying to get answers from Biblical accounts about other things is lousy exegesis.

 

[MennoSota]

As far as I know, this is simply his assertion. I'm not aware of any reason to think it's true.

Matthew:
“Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,”
which means, “God is with us.”
When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife, but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.

There's no reference here to Jesus before his birth. There's conception, there's birth. Nothing between on which to base any conclusions.

The language in Luke is similar. Conception and birth. No statement about status. Mary's pregnancy is referred to as "expecting a child."

He'd have a better case to make if he referred to John the Baptist, who is said to have leaped in the womb. Personally I think that's non-literal, but at least there'd be some basis. But the ethical question behind abortion simply hadn't come up. Knowledge about development, spontaneous abortions, questions about when you consider a person brain-dead, you're not going to find these in the Bible. Trying to get answers from Biblical accounts about other things is lousy exegesis.

There is no need for answers to God ordained end of life in the womb. God is the Sovereign and Supreme creator. He gives life and He takes life. He has this authority. Humans are not God. They are not given the right to end the life of a defenseless person.
It seems your beef is really with God. Do you imagine you are the ruler of life and death?

 

[Andrew]

I'm curious to what "legal" murder is if it's not just abortion

 

[Michael]

Still no mention in the Bible of abortion.

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Funny thing is... I never stated there was.

Did you get that from watching the video?

Or... have you dared to watch it yet? Be careful, you'll learn something new!